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I currently have a set of small horn loaded speakers but have been researching a DIY large Onken project using very high quality parts for a truly world class horn setup. I really like the nostalgic look and was thinking about doing a 15" Altec 416 type driver in an Onken cabinet with TAD 2002 drivers and large wood multi-cell horns. My father is an experienced woodworker and electronics person so I'm looking for guidance on what combination will work/sound the best.
Here are the main requirements I am looking for:
1) High sensitivity and a very easy load (100db+ so I can drive it well with my 300B Border Patrol amp)
2) Deep and tight bass down to 30hz
3) Fast bass that will integrate seamlessly with the mid/high frequency horn
4) Room size 18x26 with 11ft ceilings
5) Budget up to $7500 including the crossovers (I have a line on some good used TAD 2002s for $2K)
My first question is what is the best bass driver for a big Onken and would an 8 vs 16 ohm driver be preferred? Some of the choices I had in mind are GPA 416 8B or 16B, Supravox 400-2000 or TAD 1601.
Secondly, I was inputting the specs on each woofer into this Onken calculator but it keeps giving me error calcs on most port sizes?
http://www.mh-audio.nl/Onken_br.asp
Third, I would like to do a simple 2 way crossover with high quality but not crazy expensive components. What type of 2 way format is recommended and what crossover point on the TAD 2002?
I found some really nice looking wood multi-cell horns from a German seller on Ebay (baagersepp). Would a simple 8 cell sound best or should I go for the larger Altec 1005B type horns?
A lot of questions I know but anyone with experience building the Onken please chime in.
Thanks,
Ed
Follow Ups:
To get close to that low and efficient you might try an Onken W with an EV 9040 on top with an Altec 288.The W is a huge and heavy cabinet, but could be done within your budget.
Good luck!
I should add that to get "tight" bass from these cabinets you will need to biamp with an appropriate SS bass amp.
Edits: 01/18/16
hi Ed...
I built an Onken 360L and use GPA 515 LF 8ohm drivers...
Oris horns with AER BD3 drivers... Fostex T900A tweeters
although now I am just 2 way, removing the Fostex to let the Oris & AER do their thing...two way XO at ~400hZ point...
tried vintage Altec 416A and University C15W in the Onken and Altec 805 horns with Altec 292 drivers but have settled on the above...
I've experience with both the petite and full size onken with 414A and numerous Altec 15" drivers, respectively. I don't think you'll get to 30Hz. Nor, will the cabinet increase the sensitivity of the driver.
The thing you run into when you want more extension on the bottom is that make the transition between the woofer and the tweeter more difficult.
I had TAD2001s on tractrix horn built by John Hasquin and they went down to 500Hz. I used then with A7 cabinets.
The A7s BLOW AWAY the onkens when it comes to integrating with the horn on top.
Frankly, I wouldn't both with the onken - a big box will get you to the same place without so much effort.
Which driver did you use in the A7? Were they standard A7 cabinets or modified? I would think GPA could direct me on which driver to use with an A7 for the best result.
Also do you think a wood multicell Altec horn would work well with the TADs? I'm interested in the vintage aesthetic as well as the performance.
I used a number of drivers in the a7 including 803a, 421, 416a, 416 -8b, 515a, 515-8b and probably some others I' m out from my phone typing...
I liked 416a green and 515a the best.
My cabinets had the port set for the horns on top.
My take on horn lenses is that you don't want anything in the direct path between you snd the driver. I've used 811, 511 and then cut the webs in the 511 moving to the tractrix horns mentioned. I'd avoid multi cells unless you could careless about imaging.
Hi Ed, Your ideas sound great and what a terrific resource you have in your dad! Building Onkens well is more challenging that it seems, and I do recommend following the Hiraga plans that you can find on the web in French.
Like Ultra, I have experience with the 416a in the 360L Onken. Keep in mind that this is the driver that Hiraga tuned the cabinet for, and so any other driver will have a different sound in the box.
to your questions:
1) I've read that a 416a 16 ohm is about 96dB in the Onken. It's an easy load for single or PSE 300b.
2) My 416a in Onken goes to 35Hz in room and then drops off like a stone
3) It's good, but the A7/Magnificent a friend had is better integrated (generally)
4)Your room is a great size and will let them breath well. Mine are in a 15x19' room with a vaulted ceiling and they are a bit squeezed but play nicely.
5) Proper wood will cost upwards of $500-600, but your dad may be able to get better pricing. Use the highest grade Baltic birch to avoid cosmetic patches, ie "butterflys"
As for the 2002, that's a 1" throat and will probably have more top end than my 288G. But, making the handoff from Onken to horn is tough and I personally like my 311-90 in this range than the 811b. The larger format Altec horns only bolt to larger drivers, so I had to go with the 288. The 811b and 1.4" driver does have better top end, but in my system it didn't integrate as well at either 800 or 500Hz as the larger horn does. Just to add to the confusion, a friend has 811b on his Onkens and he really likes it. So many factors come into play including the crossover that it's tough to take anything on its own.
Let me know if this is helpful and if you want more input!
Doug
I would build a classical TAD monitor (15" bass reflex + 2" driver into a 300Hz horn), I didn't like onkens ... very far from being 'tight' and 'fast', sure they go lower than a standard bass reflex but you don't need those extra Hz.haem ... I didn't like multi cell horns, but that is just me.
24db/oct @ 600Hz possibly biamped (assuming you for a 2" driver).
Edits: 01/12/16
I really want to stick with a 1" TAD 2002 because I have heard those on the small Cessaro horns as a two way and they are AMAZING when done right. Which wood horn would sound best with that driver?
How deep will a bass reflex go and what would the sensitivity be? One issue is the TD-2002 has 110db efficiency so I need an enclosure that will get the woofer well above 100db I would think? I'm sure I can dampen the 2002 down via the crossover but the goal is to have a horn with over 100db overall efficiency.
Thanks
Use multicells if you want to be part of the music rather then listen to it. less front to back. Freedom to move around and share also. way more room dependant I would think. Big room high ceilings needed.
I saw those on eBay. Just because they look nice doesn't mean they will sound good. Finding the right pair of multicells may be difficult. I think bad multicells give all them a bad name. If you try them please give some feedback on them. I am not sure wood is the best material for multicells the original tar filled metal ones might be better. I do wonder if wood is a little too soft for them and might absorb to much.
If your father is a good woodworker maybe Yuichi Radial Horns might be the go as the japanese guy(Yuchi) that made these offers the plans to diy and are well respected and made for tads. if you search here you will find out about cogent and conicals. So many options good luck.
would you include Altec 203B in that recommendation ?
Karlson Evangelist
Ok, now I am pretty confused haha.
The pair of speakers that really got me excited about the whole idea originally were made by a HiFi company in NZ called Parmeter Sound. However, I cant afford to pay $40K for them!
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5021#&gid=1&pid=29
From what I can see he is using a TAD 1601a with a TAD 4001 driver and a custom passive crossover for claimed frequency response down to 28hz and overall 102db efficiency. He's using ultra expensive Duelund cast capacitors (that's like $3-4K in parts right there!) in the passive crossovers but other than that I think I can do something comparable within my budget.
I gather from people's responses here that the A7 is a far better choice but even the biggest A7 cabinet taps out at 40hz, which is a bit less than I would like. Also, would the 2" 4001 driver be a better choice vs a 2001 or 2002 driver? The 600hz crossover point may help a bit vs. the 800hz minimum for the 2001/2002. The 4001s can also be had much cheaper but I don't know how they compare sonically vs the 2001/2002 which I know sound excellent.
http://tad-labs.com/en/professional/unitspeaker/unit2.html
as TomServo mentioned above, you could save money over TAD with a BMS4550. If you want 30Hz and are willing to accept EQ then some woofers set for 40Hz alignment could be tuned a half octave lower and would allow a 6th order bass-reflex alignment with an underdamped 2nd order highpass or parametric bump centered around 1.03* tuning. In an Onken type or reflex with an even amount of vents, this would mean half of the vent area would be blocked. That type vent might be deep enough so one would not want the back of the vent open and front closed as could inadvertently create a resonator. If you were using only digital then probably there's a media player with fine enough graphic EQ to get the needed boost.
Karlson Evangelist
do you think you could get results nearly as good as the TAD with say a B&C or BMS driver? are you thinking of using a 511 if going with A7?
some KBG capacitors would save money too and probably make things sound pretty good.
it gets confusing - what I wanted to know was if an Altec 2-cell horn gets lumped into the characteristics of "multicell"
I generally prefer Karlsons to horn systems for punch vs size but like various approaches.
seems like an A7 would be somewhat "mid centric" in balance - ?
here's 203B - I've got a pair plus some 291 (?) somewhere needing diaphragms - I can barely remember what a 203 sounded like on top of a Peavey FH1 - think it made it to ~6K
Karlson Evangelist
Hey Freddyi!
I had most of the Altec multicellular models years ago as well as a smattering of the original Lansngs, and the 203Bs were my favorites when driven by 288s. Great 300 Hz. loading plus narrow pattern, ideal for living room listening. There is the moderate coloration of an exponential horn, but huge dynamics and excellent imaging. I have several of them stored away and should give them another listen!
I do have 2001 and love it. it can go down to 1k, maybe 800Hz ... below that would probably be too much of a stretch. A 15" can go up to 600Hz and even 1kHz but it doesn't sound there that good to me.
I believe 15" + 1" would be suboptimal, you can certainly try and add a 2" later on. Probably you can reach 40Hz or 35Hz with a bigger bass reflex and the proper woofer but forget about 100dB down there.
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