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I have TAD 805SD bookshelf speakers which are inexpensive and very similar to Bowers & Wilkens 805's. They are the best speakers I've ever had, and I run them with a typical 30 watt EL34 vacuum tube push-pull amp (Cayin TA30- similar to Prima Luna amps).
I may get bashed for this, but I want to get a SET amp and try to run these speakers- I was thinking something like BottleHead Pamamount 1.1 (300B) SET amp. I was thinking of modifying my speakers by substituting more efficient drivers because the current drivers are probably too inefficient for SET amps. I don't have the space or money to get some Klipsh or Altec type speakers right now. My speakers are rated at 87db. Where can I shop for replacement 5" drivers (forget the tweeter- I can't hear that high!) that are more efficient (and might also sound better)? The stock drivers are nominally about 5", approx 1" voicecoil, center protruding fixed cone, and speaker cones are curved cross section, look like yellow fiberglass (see pictures). There is no info at all written on the stock drivers. I don't think I'm even using the tweeters, so no cross-over issues. (could probably also benefit from some better internal speaker wire)
specs:
8 Ohm
87db
internal volumne: approx 0.64 cu ft, 18.2 liters
port ID: 1.75", 4.5cm
port depth: 2.3", 6cm
enclosure: 1/2" MDF, curved sides and top.
Any thoughts or advice appreciated. Thanks, Kip.......
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Follow Ups:
I agree with those who have said to put your current speakers back together and forget modding them in any way. You'll likely end up with a disjointed mess in the end. Try them in stock form with the SET you end up with. You may be surprised. If not, look at speakers truly designed for lower power amps. Omega (for one) has several reasonably priced possibilities that may work.
Your Spendors are actually pretty good with SE amps. You should try them with a 300B amp before doing mods on a good small speaker.
Good idea: I was thinking of selling them, but I'll wait til I get my SET.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Change your drivers especially with drivers much more efficient than your current ones means you have to redesign the box and the crossover. That means you need to design a completely new speaker. If you want a more efficient speaker you'd be better off finding a well designed new one that you can afford. What you want to do make make sound but it will be a very poor speaker.
Hi
The low frequency corner (-3dB point), the box volume and sensitivity are all tied together. Once you fix the value for any two, the third is given.
This means for a given box size and low corner, there is a maximum sensitivity that is possible and it isn't possible to go any higher.
Those are nice looking cabinets, if your handy, i would suggest you put it back together and then set about to build something yourself. This isn't as hard as you might think.
If you are planning on buying a SE amp anyway I would get it first
and see how well it drives your speakers. Unless you have a very
large listening room or listen at very high volume a 300B amp will
most likely work fine. You can always modify the speakers later if you are not satisfied with the results.
Cal
Cal:
Right. Based on what I've learned in this thread, I think that's the best plan. I can move forward with purchase of an SET amp or integrated. Now I have a much better idea of what I'm dealing with.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Higher sensitivity is the result of lower Qts, especially lower Qes. But lower Qts/Qes also results in higher f3. That's why very high sensitivity drivers in the Fostex/Lowther vein typically are used in rear loaded folded horns, as otherwise they'd have no low end. You might be able to find drivers with higher sensitivity than what you have that will still have an acceptable f3, but you'll want to model them to be sure it's worth swapping them out.
> could probably also benefit from some better internal speaker wire
That's very unlikely, unless they're presently wired with 28ga or smaller.
Thanks Bill.
I am not yet familiar with the terms you are using, but I have somewhat of an idea of the issues at play: cone mass, resonant frequency, surround compliance, voice coil characteristics. My idea in this possible mod action is that there may be a speaker with the same characterisitcs that also has higher efficiency. I will try to educate myself about the terms you are using during this process- I'm sure that will help.
The brands you mentioned will set me in the right direction. Vendors may also have valid input- but I have to be careful to separate sales motives from valid info. That's the beauty of forums- advice without a sales agenda.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
(I'm one of the Bottlehead guys but I'll just talk about speakers here, OK?)
In the simplest analysis, to get the same bass extension the box internal volume is proportional to efficiency - that's why efficient speakers are so big. So substituting a more efficient speaker will leave you with less deep bass.
In the more complex analysis, each speaker has a limited range of box volumes that can be made to give a flat bass response, even if you accept a higher cutoff frequency as the price of greater efficiency. So for any given more-efficient speaker, you may or may not be able to get flat bass response.
I did a quick simulation as an example; it appears that you could use a Fostex FE126E and shorten the port to about 1" long. The bass will be a little lumpy but not terrible. Different speakers will give different answers though!
Hope that helps.
Bill, Paul (I recognized the name), and Dave: thanks.
I have to apologize- I discovered that the TAD 805 enclosure has a solid false bottom, and actual internal volumne is 959 cu in (0.55 cu ft, 15.7l). I'm guessing that effects your calculations, and if you had a moment to re-calculate, thad be awesome.
I noticed the FE126E, and also that it's rated at 93db! Would have to make an adapter to fit it since it's smaller. Also considering the Fostex BK12 complete speaker kit, but I believe the shape of the 805SD enclosure may be why I like it so much. Also Tang Band D4-1 kit looks interesting.
Bass response. I remember in the 70's visiting Pacific Stereo stores. Very large enclosures, and if ya wanted to go "first class", get the 5-way ones! Loud, powerful, thumping bass. ELECTRIC bass. Bass dominated the music, like Bob Marley, or some disco. Not interested in that.
Lately listening to a lot of 60's honky tonk- there's a lot of excellent, in-studio recorded stand-up bass. Charlie Louvin's "I'm No Longer in Your Heart" a really good example. Does not shake your pant legs or rattle the windows, but it does fill the air with beautiful harmonics. So smaller speakers may be fine for me. Also, I think most of the recorded music information is in an area that is way above the lower and way below the upper thresholds of hearing (especially mine).
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Back loaded horns will sound quite different compared to sealed or ported boxes - in fact they are a taste I have not acquired, though sometimes the advantages outweigh the problems. Just a cautionary note.
Given the music mentioned - smaller scale acoustic - you might even be happy with your existing 87dB speakers, especially if you go for a 5-10 watt 300B amp. It at least allows you to make a valid comparison between amps, separated from comparing speakers. In a small room, I use 89dB speakers with a 2-watt amp for DVDs, and I always have tons of headroom available. (OK, in the big rig it's 101dB speakers and 8-watt amps ... I do like my Mahler!)
Paul:
I'm confused. On your main listening setup you are not using a back loaded horn? Sounds like you are using a SET amp using a 300B(?) I would have thought a 101 db speaker would be a back loaded horn. I'm always curious to know what setups work. Thanks again, Kip.....
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
JBL 2220 woofers, possibly the most efficient direct radiator available. 2440 compression drivers on top, crossed at 800Hz. Inappropriately small boxes which I got for free ... so I have 10" subs under the 15" woofer! Yeah, it's not the ne plus ultra but it makes music. Kind of a vintage-pro sound.
Yes, the amps are 300Bs - I often wind up with Bottlehead prototypes once things are in production.
> I did a quick simulation as an example; it appears that you could use a Fostex FE126E and shorten the port to about 1" long. The bass will be a little lumpy but not terrible. Different speakers will give different answers though!
There's also the matter of how low you need to go. If you're using a sub below 80Hz, for instance, then you don't need a driver that will give a 50Hz f3, you can use one that has higher sensitivity but only a 70Hz f3 and not be losing anything. It's when you want to go low with high sensitivity using a small box that you run up against the wall that is known as Hoffman's Iron Law.
Of course he would be making a very valuable speaker worthless. If he wants to use Fostex FE126E, he should build or buy a box that is made to work with it, IMO. If he sells the TADs, he will have more than enough to fund a pretty elaborate Fostex project. Madisound has a nice and reasonable priced kit with the FE126EN (see link).
Dave
Dave:
I hear ya. Actually considering getting that kit. $329! (don't know shipping cost yet though) If I didn't like them, I could give them to my daughter.
The mod to the TAD's would be reversible, so the mod would not ruin them. They are no longer available (that I'm aware of), and I can't imagine ever selling ever them.
The reason that I'm interested in modding the TAD's is that I believe the enclosure is significantly superior to typical box enclosures (or at least the ones I've owned). However, I have not heard the Fostex kit or owned a similar design.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research.
Dave
Dave:
I don't know. I don't know much about the speakers other than that I own them and that they are my favorites so far. A lot of things from China have little documentation or track record.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
> > Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research. < <
???
You do realize that these speakers aren't actually TAD/Pioneer ones, right?
Unless of course you're being sarcastic...in which case it's kinda funny.
No I did not. I looked them up and I see now that TAD stands for Tube Audio Design. My mistake. Comments were mixed, but I did not come away thinking that it would be a very impressive speaker, so hacking it up probably would not take much value away from a speaker that probably does not have much value to begin with.
However, the original poster likes the sound, so I still doubt that he could improve upon things by bolting a mismatched driver into a box. Since this is a crossoverless design, the interaction between the new driver and the "tweeter" could be bad or even damaging to the amp in a worst case scenario. I still think the Fostex kit would be the better option for someone who admittedly knows nothing about speakers.
I also like this DIY project using a Fostex FE103E and a Eminence Alpha 15A. (See link). It would also be easily adaptable to other full range drivers.
Dave
> > Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research. < <
???
You do realize that these speakers aren't actually TAD/Pioneer ones, right?
Unless of course you're being sarcastic.
> > Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research. < <
???
You do realize that these speakers aren't actually TAD/Pioneer ones, right?
Check PartsExpress. Not sure if there are any Fostex drivers of the correct dimensions, but, if you haven't checked, look at Madisound's website & see.
You might (?!?) be better off, for experimentation, to go with something simple and inexpensive like the little Fostex "Kanspea" kits -- they're tiny, inexpensive... and, at least as far as I am concerned, sound good. A powered subwoofer is a value add with them, though ;-)
(yeah -- not a SET driving 'em in the photo, but with no crossovers nor countour filters, they're sensitive enough to be driven well with SE 2A3)
all the best,
mrh
Mark:
Thanks for response.
There are some used assembled BottleHead Paramours (no longer available new from BottleHead) that I considering buying at $600 the pair (also considering BottleHead Paramount 1.1). That's one of the reasons I'm trying to find out how badly my current speakers are gonna perform with the SET amps.
I am convinced (perhaps erroneously) that the shape, volumne, mass, etc. of the curved TAD 805 SD speaker enclosures I have has a lot to do with their good performance. I not leaning towards a typical box enclosure like the Fostex kit. I have some Spendor SP 2/2 more expensice larger 2-way box speakers, but I prefer the cheaper 805's. So I will start looking at the vendors you guys have mentioned to see if I can get a more effecient driver that can also work with existing enclosure. Might get the Fostex kits to run at work or in the garage, where I spend a lot of time. Do you know their efficiency rating?
Have you run the Fostex's with the Paramours? Do think my current speakers would be hopeless with the Paramours?
BTW, I looked at some of the Flickr images- someone's got an awesome back yard!
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
They sound good - to me - with it. I haven't hooked 'em to the Paramours, though.
I do still have the Paramours, by the way.
all the best,
mrh
If you're interested in selling the Paramours, I might be interested. The other ones got snapped up from eBay. Of course I'm interested in knowing what your other amp is that you apparently prefer.
If I modify my speakers,I saw some Tang Bands that might work. Also liked the look of their kit, D4-1. Consensus on this forum is that my speakers really can't be modded and work right. They may be usable as-is. I think I'll buy some SETs and worry about the speakers later.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
you're welcome to come by, give a listen, and borrow 'em for a while if you wish!
all the best,
mrh
Thanks for the offer; that would be real helpful- I don't know anyone with SET's to audition. Maybe if I join a hifi club in my area........ But I live in SoCal, and am schakled to my job.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
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