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Hello everyone,
This is my first post to Audio Aslym. Thanks in advance for reading and participating.
I recently inherited some fantastic audio equipment, the crown pieces of which are two Voice of the Theater (VOTT) A7 speakers. They were purchased new circa 1970 for home listening, kept in a dedicated fabric covered cupboard, and only listened to on occasion. As far as I know or can tell, they have never been tampered with internally or externally. I opened up the cabinet and confirmed they include 416A 16ohm drivers with N-500-E dividing network. The horn array has four openings (not sure what you'd call those) for the one driver (forgot to check the driver model number...will get that soon).
As I am told, when these were new they were paired with a tube amplifier, which died and was never replaced. The last couple decades the speakers have been rarely used. Someone recently connected them to a Yamaha RX-V1070, but complained the speakers didn't sound right. Is this because high efficiency speakers would likely not perform well with such a high powered amp?
Ultimately, I'd like hear for myself in person what all the fuss is about with VOTT speakers. Apparently I've landed a good pair. What do I power them with that will make them shine? Preferably for under $1,000. Anything under $500 that would work?
Cheers
Follow Ups:
SE 2A3 here, with Duplexes and Santiagos (not Voice o' the Theatres here, sadly).
Gary Kaufman has the right idea with his A5s, methinks :-) I like his system's sound -- a lot. SE 211 amp of his own design and construction. Unfortunately Gary's site is kind of bjorked due to a server migration -- peruse his JPG files, though, at the link below :-)
all the best,
mrh
Forget Gary's 211 tube choice in amps, after the Type 45 and 2A3 tube, all the other output tubes, IMHO, play "second fiddle".A7s will play well in a small room, even a garage, carefully set up and fed.
To the original poster, you want to use the following amp :
(a) use only triode tubes, real triodes , for outputs, there are truly ONLY two great choices, Type 45 or 2A3.
(b) A TWO stage ( only ) amp, which requires a high gain ( high mu ) input tube. So, the ideal amp will have TWO audio tubes, and one rectifier tube, ( as shown in the post above - it appears )!!
(c) a single ended amplifier, NOT push pull.
(d) finally, a DIRECT COUPLED amplifier, meaning no "coupling caps" that the audio signal must pass through.
Am listening to this type of amplifier on Altec 515B vintage drivers now, and its VERY satisfying, quality and power wise.
Contact me, and I will send you a build guide I've written, so you will learn what WORKS !! Vintage ALTEC rocks, with the right 1.5 to 3 Watt amplifier !!!
You can't buy it readily, but you can DIY build it over time. Relax, you are THERE with speakers for now. My favs are A7-800s.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 06/11/15
hello Jeff but Altec 515 only go to ….2K i think
???
A Duplex is sort of a 515 woofer -- sort of. They're less filling, and they taste great.
Big fan, am I.
Just sayin'...
PS I don't - exactly - disagree about thr 45 and the 2A3... I am not a fan of the 300B's sound, by and large. Gary's SE 211 amp does have the flesh and blood immediacy thing goin' on, though, big time, IMO.
I won't say anything against direct coupling (vs. cap coupling) except it's a little too tricky for a Neanderthal like me to implement.
all the best,
mrh
mhardy,
There is nothing quite like a two stage DC amp on ALTECs, IF the amp is done really well,.... and very very few are.
I have written a guide I can send you, so that you could convert to such a topology. Is there any way we can get in touch email wise, so I can send you my write up as an attachment?? If you don't build it, it will still be an interesting read for you.
I start with Loftin White, and then proceed to a modern approach.
Jeff Medwin
Oke i see ...duplexes.
i have the Altec 604 here
and i am still voicing an altec vott with 515 woofers and 1505b horns with 288 drivers.
this was a project i started a month ago
i like the 300b sound on the altec.
i have also 45 and 2a3 amps but i find these to neat and polite for my taste.
i like the balls the big tone and the grunt from the 300b on the 15 inch woofer.
but the 45 and 2a3 amps are also great amps its just my taste and preference.
If you had the right power supply, proper wiring and right bypassing of caps, there is no way you would listen to a 300B over a 2A3. Just saying'Jeff Medwin
Edits: 06/23/15
OK :-)
here is a picture of the vott and on the right right the 300b amp
his are real Altec horns, though (tar filled); those appear to be modern wooden replicas, no?
all the best,
mrh
Yes but this wooden replica's sound much better then the originals.
i have also aluminum altec horns.
Did you buy them or make them?
Dave
hello Dave
i buy them from Markus Klug in Germany he build these wonderfull horns http://klughoerner.de/Haupt/about/
The less than ideal design and construction of your 45 and 2A3 amps is your real audio problem. Altec 515B, etc is superb. You just have an amp problem, like most people do !!
Jeff Medwin
I don't have a problem Jeffwhy do you think i have a problem ???
Edits: 06/21/15
Hello,
You stated this :
"i have also 45 and 2a3 amps but i find these to neat and polite for my taste.
i like the balls the big tone and the grunt from the 300b on the 15 inch woofer. "
This wording above tells me you are probably listening to a conventionally-built 45 and 2A3 amps, with all the errors in design people usually make!!
Some of us know how to build a 45 and 2A3 amp so it will be vivid, dynamic as all get out, and fabulous on bass on a high efficiency fifteen in woofer. But alas, 97% of the public does not know how to do this !!!
Sonically, any 45 or single plate 2A3 ( AVVT, EML, JJ2A3-40 ) is a superior tube to a 300B. But, I am assuming an ideal amp build in all cases, which it simply seldom is.
Altec speakers are very fine. I have 515Bs and 802Ds.
The real TURKEYS in audio are amps...including the traditional low performance DHT amps people build and use on ALTEC speakers !! From your above post, you seem to be unaware of this deficit.
For example, off the top of my head, are your chokes over 20 Ohms DCR? Is your 45 and 2A3 amp three stages rather than two? In each case, you are losing necessary performance, especially on a horn system !!
I certainly hope you do not take my post in an offensive manner. I am just stating my opinion, from my perspective and direct experience.
Jeff Medwin
Oke thats fine Jeff
But you say that i have a problem?
the 300b is a very good sounding amp and i like it very much
i believe also that you build a very good sounding amp
i think so but i didn't hear it
same as you did not hear my amp
but you say that i have a problem if i have not the same amp as you
its a little strange to me
Its such a shame, with you being in Holland, that we two can't hear each other's Type 45 amps, but you can see the underside of mine.
Would your Type 45 SE amp's underside build look like mine??
Jeff
Jeff
When you say two stage amplifier, are you then using an active line stage/pre-amplifier?
You weren't joking about all those caps !!
Best to you,
Shane
Hi Shane,
No active line stage is wanted or needed with high efficiency speakers, just a simple but HIGHEST QUALITY attenuator. KISS rules.
Lotsa gain in the amp, a mu of 100 driver tube ( half a Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plate, DC coupled to a mu of 4 Type 45's grid ). See the Serious Stereo Web page for info on the technique and his quality attenuator.
Of course I am not joking about the 51 film caps in my stereo two stage DC amp !! They are the minimum I find necessary for highest quality of perceived performance.
No ONE film cap plays "all" the musical ranges ( at the speaker's voice coil ) perfectly, and caps PLAY notoriously narrow band, despite how they may statically measure on a test bench.
We have determined what cap values play best, at differing frequencies, and we can adjust the sound of the amplifier, so it conforms to an " all the music" playback at the speaker voice coil, which is my goal. Its NOT how the amp measures at idle, but rather, how it plays and captures the music dynamically to my ear. Does the amp REALLY perform ?
FEW designers understand this. But Mr. Dennis Fraker does, and he shared the technique with me Shane. What you see ( in that underside picture of mine ) has hardly ever been seen publicly on the WWW before, just one other time as I recall.
Jeff Medwin
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the reply.
Shane
My German is a bit rusty, but the pictures say it all. Very nice!
Dave
yes they should be fun (granted that you have a room large enough to house them).
Once done try them with whatever electronics you have @ hand, but listen @ reasonable sound levels (they can go REALLY LOUD, but don't crank them).
My main concern (if they were mine) would be the electronic parts in the crossovers, which most likely require refurbishing.
I've run A5 & A7's with various amplifiers (original Altec tube & solid state amps, Phase Linear 400 - not recommended and Dynaco/Scott/Eico tube amps).
An inexpensive integrated tube amp that I have ZERO hands on experience with (but one that I'm seriously looking into in order to simplify my system) is noted @ the link below ($400 delivered & it has good solid online reviews).
Just mentioning it, the amp, as it is well within your budget and I suspect that it's lower damping factor will mate well with the A7's when, used in a home environment (it will flesh out the bass).
Looks like the amp will be back in stock in July 2015.
SoundSurfing, A7s were originally P.A. monitors. Late bud Hippie John used two '65 A7s as P.A. monitors with his band Working Class. Which opened for the Who inside Sactown's Aud'Torem in mid-60s. Who needed a vocal monitor, & thus his p.a. performed over-time duty. Because they liked its' clear-yet-powerful projection. Courtesy Altec 1569A amplification. Two 6CA7s, two 6CG7s, & a 5U4GB rectifier topology (pre-amp was Altec 1567A). After his band broke up, he'd only use them to rock special occasion par-tays, powered by a former band member's Macintosh amp. "Because that's what they used at Woodstock", he reasoned. These pups roar, as the Who once attested on Sactown's main stage. Even though A7s don't need much wattage, SoundSurfing, they'll reward your ears if you utilize a higher wattage amp's reserve power. 73s para Sactown
They carried around four of them, powered by Mac MC-60's. Good Golly, Miss Molly!
I've used them @ home as well as for larger venue applications and for home use my 3-4 watt Bottlehead amps would be more than decent.
What are your rec's for home use within budget (would be nice if the OP would provide room dimensions)?
Once again, the speakers/crossovers will need to be refurbished -w- perhaps a crossover frequency change (another added expense).
If you want to have the crossover refurbished, or need other parts or service, you might look to Great Plains Audio who work on Altec speakers.
Best,
George Roland
First, congratulations on your new speakers!
These old, high-efficiency Altecs can be really good, and time will tell, ultimately, if they are right for you--your listening habits, room, associated components and so on. And don't be dismayed by comments such as that by one wag who suggested you sell them and buy "good" speakers.
If you are handy with a soldering iron and would like to buy kits, some of the Bottlehead offerings suggested already would likely be good choices. If you stay with your low budget, nothing wrong with that by the way, you might look online for a Dynaco tube-based integrated amp or separates, a PAS 2 or 3 preamp and an ST-70 power amp.
I would strongly reinforce those who suggested that tube electronics are the way to go.
Go slowly. When you get your speakers up and running, do not change anything for at least two-three weeks' worth of careful listening. In my experience, anything new (any changed components) will have some interesting or exciting attributes just because what you're hearing sounds different. It may take awhile for those differences to settle down and for you to be able, objectively to determine what you're hearing. I often take a year to make such determinations with lots of switching back and forth between components to verify my preferences.
Relax and enjoy your music.
George
There are plenty of options in the flea-watt SET tube amp world that likely will sound best with those speakers. Make sure the amp has 16 ohm taps to connect to. Take a look at Decware and Bottlehead options. Both would sound great and can be had for less than $1k.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
Yes, I am clueless when it comes to properly setting these up and using them. My experience is more in mid-level home theater and entry-level studio equipment. So the integrated solution sounds most realistic for me right now.
I just learned that the original setup had a Marantz processor and McIntosh tube amplifier. Wish we still had those, but they disappeared long ago.
I understand there is an optimal solution, likely $2,500 or more. For now, I'm hoping to have something that works for under $1,000 (or even under $500 if possible) and then save up for something ideal a few years down the road. Will a cheap solution damage the speakers? Any recommendations for something that will work?
Someone offered to let me demo some units. If there are any opportunities close by, I'd be thrilled. I'm in Southern California (Santa Barbara/Ventura Counties).
Thanks!
The first thing I'd do would be to sell the VOTs and replace them with good speakers.
:)
To the OP, pay no attention, there is one in every crowd
It's nice to see that you took time to reply to my post.
Do you have any additional knowledge to impart?
My post was serious. VOTT A7s suck. Been there, done that. Bright, ringy, uncontrolled/irregular directivity, etc. Still, back in the day, they were decent - for what could be built at the time. This is NOT a slam to my friend John Hilliard. It was the best design technology of the time.
However, in the early 1970s, the Electro-Voice Sentry III and Sentry IV blew them away, and the big Klipsch speakers as well. Some people never got over that.
To the OP: pay no attention to the troll.
Inmate51, you are just plain wrong and have not heard a proper working pair of VOT.
Hey I am going to jump in here and defend Inmate51 a bit! My bias first...I own EV Sentry IV-A's. At this point they sound wonderful, but that is after a ton of work and expert guidance here, especially Paul E. and grindstone, on Hi-Eff asylum.
I have buddies that have Klipschorns and the other has A-7's. Both had their respective speakers long before I got the Sentry's. I had multiple listening sessions with both. Both sounded impressive with their respective amplification chains. (Klipschorn - Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, A-7 JE Labs 300B's) I took a lot of crap, from both of them, on the purchase of the Sentry's..."butt ugly", (they were! ;-) ), "wannabe's" ...you get the drift.
Not to drag this out, but we did a "listen off" with my Bottlehead 300B Paramounts and Bottlehead Foreplay 3 Extended, (running 7N7's), after I got the Sentry's sorted. (Just in case you are wondering, we moved the BH kit to each house, thought it might be slightly easier than moving the speakers ;-) ) We all have similar tastes in musical genre, jazz, vocals, classical and some dino rock.
The winner was grudgingly unanimous. The Sentry IV-A's handily bested both the contenders in every subjective listening category. To be honest, the Sentry's have completely redesigned and built x-overs, all four 12" woofer refoamed and bass bins substantially built up. The K-Horns have ALK X-overs and the A-7's were stock,511B horns, reconed woofers by GPA and the stock networks.
The A-7 came in 3rd...weak bass, rolled off highs and a bit muddy in the mids with a metallic tinge. ('bout the same for the K-horns, just not as pronounced!) There is good potential there. They have cachet and a loyal following, but they need a lot of work to be on par with other "big sound" horn systems. I think the first step, assuming all is well with the drivers, is to dump the stock networks and build better crossovers. IMO that is a huge weak spot. (My buddy won't consider doing this, destroys the provenance!)
So let's cut Inmate51 some slack. He has a valid opinion. Just remember.....the only ears that you really have to please are your own!
Cheers,
Geary
Your commission check is in the mail.
I distinctly remember your odyssey of refurbishing your Sentry IVs. They're red, aren't they?
I appreciate you coming to my defense, although it wasn't necessary. The first time I heard the Sentry III (the furniture/home version of the Sentry IV) was at the "shop" in about '73-'74, when I was doing commercial sound installations. My boss was a hi-fi junkie. While myself and the other installer were out making a living, he'd be there ordering and receiving cool stuff. One day, I got back to the shop, and here were these beautiful speakers. After dinner, we met back there and put on some Pink Floyd and some EL&P. Ah, those were the daze! We installed several of the Sentry IVs in places like auditoriums and such, and later, after I moved to a different city, I installed four of the Sentry IIIs in a new jazz nightclub where the opening night artist was the great Freddie Hubbard. He loved 'em. (Whew!)
As you probably know, the Sentry IV uses a folded bass horn specifically to achieve greater efficiency for commercial applications. This is actually why I preferred the Sentry III - it goes lower better. The mid horn and the tweety are the same, though.
Here's the kicker... I had never heard the Altec A7 before I heard the Sentry III and IV. When I did hear the A7, I thought "that sucks". (No offense to anyone who likes them.)
Keep in mind that they A7 was the smaller step-child of the Lansing Shearer theater loudspeaker system, which was the brain child of John Hilliard. As often happens in loudspeaker design, as things get smaller, compromises must be made. So, unfortunately, the A7 ain't no Shearer.
:)
This will do fine:
This fellow has put a budget on where he wants to be. Also He seems to be unfamiliar with what is required before he even fires up the speakers. What I recommended is an integrated amp so he would not have mess with separates. Paul Joppa had a good recommendation in a PP EL84, actually my first choice but there were none listed in the trader. A nice Scott, Sherwood or Harman Kardon integrated would do fine by him.
I owned a set of Altec A7-500 in 1972.
Don't expect any real deep bass, or real extended HF, no matter what you do.
Another issue is replacing those 40+ year old capacitors in the networks,
My comments in a recent post regarding the A7, A5 825 cabs. Modding to full Range . Add a supertweeter since that comp driver/horn does not really go much above 10KHz. Then add a subwoofer in the reflex cab below the 150-160 Hz MR horn. Just seal the connection between the horn and bass reflex cabinet and place an 15-18" driver in a bass reflex enclosure or an 10-12" driver in a tapped horn in there. You need to biamp the sub and adjust volumes. But now you have a 20-20Khz speaker. I did this once and it blew away the Wilson Wham which was more than a 100K dollar speaker system!
PS. Stiffen up/reinforce the bottom of the 825 cab and putty up the 511/811 horn to reduce ringing
luck
Rafaro
or consider a complete crossover replacement, something like this (I am not affiliated with the seller, just using the link as an example - there are other suppliers)
An SET is likely to sound especially good, but I would also consider an EL84 (6BQ5) push-pull amp. You will want a minimum of 2 watts - not hard to find! :^)
The Dynaco ST-35 is a sweet little push-pull 6BQ5/EL-84 amp. Nice and compact, about 17 watts/ch, iirc, which should be way more than enough.
Somewhere around 20 watts from an amp that is capable of giving solid bass is the minimum. Anything less and you will be saying "where is the bass, why is this mushy?"
Don't fall prey to what so many have, in that they look at the efficiency and impedance and assume that any little amp will do the trick. Not true. But they absolutely come alive with some tube power, in a way that will shock you.
I think this may be something you might like. Enough power to drive those monsters.
SET from the AA trader .
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
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