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My Christmas present came early! GPA Altec 604-8H-III's with GPA crossovers. I am planning to upgrade 2.2uF and 4.7uF caps and possibly the 12uF caps also. I am considering Obbligato Gold, Jantzen Superior or Silver, Audyn Cap Plus, Auricaps also vintage PIO types like Sprague Vitamin Q. I am going to limit cost to about $30 for the 2.2uF caps. I would also like suggestions for using or not using a smaller bypass cap. I also have a pair of ALK Universal Crossovers for Klipschorns that your suggestions will be considered. BTW the Khorns have Volti Audio Wooden Horns with 2" BMS Mids, JBL 2404 Tweeters, and Crites cast frame woofers. The Altecs are in a temporary box and will soon be in JE Labs OB Baffles with Altec Stonehenge type custom cabinets a possibility. Also posted on Speaker Forum.I appreciate your attention and suggestions in advance and wish You and Your's a Very Merry Christmas! Chuck
Edits: 12/23/14 12/23/14Follow Ups:
See Mike Samra's suggestion on caps for Horns. Posted in Vintage Electronics tonight.
Posted by Michael Samra (D) on January 4, 2015 at 19:11:54
In Reply to: RE: you recap a speaker when you see a non polar electrolytic(s) posted by escape2cfc on January 4, 2015 at 17:42:00:
For horns,there is nothing better than a good paper in oil cap because they are very linear at higher frequencies and they tend to smooth out any slight harshness.
I am using these in my Model 14's and I like them FWIW
Thanks for the info! This is a new product for me and your endorsement has me looking into them.
I have some crossovers to sell that you may be interested in. I've sent you an email.
Thanks for your information Adam! Does anyone else have user information on custom crossovers from Germany built by Werner Jagusch of Jabo-Speakers? He lists his beautiful products on Ebay under seller name mast_mutter. He verified he makes a crossover specifically for the GPA 604 8H III.
I do not have anything to contribute but I will be interested in your results, whichever path you choose. (Except the active! lol)
OK! I plan replace the smallest GPA caps with a pair of Obligato 2.2uF (that I already own). Also replace the input and output leads with single strand 16gauge OCC wiring. Upgrade the factory resistors also. I am still studying/comparing Selah Audio ($400) and Werner Jagusch of Jabo's ($700) crossovers. Both can be optimized for the GPA 604 III's. The Selah Audio have sizable group of devotee's. Werner Jagusch from Germany has user adjustable options to fine tune an individual's needs. I will decide on whether I try another crossover after trying the JE Labs Baffles with what I have. If someone sees a used pair of either of these (for GPA 604 III) drop me a note please!
I have a set of the excellent german crossover to offer.
Please contact me privately for details.
James
Frankly, the crossover makes or breaks these speakers.
Do yourself a favour and spend the money on a pair of Rick Craig's standard build crossovers and be done. They are a very reasonable cost for what you get in return. I would not have gone the GPA duplex route if Rick's crossovers had not been available.
Cheers.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki
Hi, I must admit the 604's were a impulse purchase. Impulse after 30 years of wanting a pair! So I didn't research the crossover market/choices until after the purchase of speakers/crossovers. I am in the process of building JE Labs baffles to try. Currently in 11 cu ft boxes that I revised to port size spec. And I have spoken with Rick Craig and priced his recommended (by a couple of owners now) product. He uses Clarity Caps for his standard model. These caps are in my target price range. Not exotic but certainly appear and from reports should outperform the no name caps on the GPA crossovers. And I may decide to drop the coins for a pair instead of modding the GPA's?? So my post was to gather others and especially 604 owners earned knowledge and opinions. On a subject that is of immediate importance as I move forward. Look for a private email from me please as I value your opinion and I have a specific question. Best Regards! Chuck
I find that top quality caps do have make a noticeable improvement in crossovers, especially on the horn(HF)side. I have tried both the Jantzen Superiors, and Audyn plus caps and feel they are both fine sounding caps. I generally use the Jantzen Superiors in my crossovers as being the most neutral sounding.
I haven't tried/heard the Audyn Plus caps. Can you describe the difference between them and the Jantzen Superior caps? Also I really would like someone with PIO experience in crossovers. Lots of vintage PIO options and fairly reasonable pricing. Where are you Mikey?
I would say the Audyn caps are a little bit more on the warm side , while the Jantzen caps are a bit more neutral, but both are great caps.
Spend your time, effort, and money on room treatments.
Cap rolling in speaker crossovers, especially complex ones, may not give you much audible improvement.
Have you ever looked at crossovers from $50,000+ speakers? All the ones I have looked at (and it has been more than 10) use generic Bennic/Dayton polypropylene caps.
Hi, Thanks for your comments! I do plan on doing more in my room. It is approx 20'x 19' with a small corner cut out. Meaning that corner intrudes into the room approx 6'x 6'. This is a room over a large garage and has french doors that open onto a balcony. The doors have drapes, the floor is thick carpet and the ceil has a slight vault(9') on the 20' side. That is where I have the Klipschorns with the Altecs between them. 2 Paradigm Active 15 Servo Subs are available for service. There is a queen sized bed and lots of shelve with gear, boxes of tubes etc. So once I rip and store a few thousand more cds and sell some gear I will clean it and reorganize and evaluate! Merry Christmas!
BY FAR, the most important thing is to have the correct values and a topology which which corrects the horns response and limits it's low frequency response. Unfortunately, horn crossovers are the most difficult to design of all.
FAR down on the list in comparison, is what type of capacitor is used.
Capacitors do depart from theoretically perfect capacitors but if you use polypropylene caps for your mid and hf crossovers, these issues will be well below audibility, well above the range of your hearing.
Thanks for the reply! The Altec crossover was built by Bill @ Great Plains Audio. He manufactures the speaker and has been in the Altec business for a long time. The Khorn Universal Crossover by ALK is a long-term product specifically designed(for Khorn) to allow some flexibility on how different drivers integrate into the overall sound of the speakers (also room acoustics). I also have the Type A Klipsch crossover built by Crites. All commercially designed, all sound really good! My membership in the Asylum qualifies/requires me to keep experimenting and learning!
I am not cap knowledgeable so can only learn via practical experiences and reading. I read the Crites' basis for him using and selling Sonicaps in hos rebuild kits and crossovers. I also read other articles that in the beginning seemed to refute his contention but by the end seemed more like the writer supported his position. In the end I decided just to go with his rebuild kits for my HII. I figured he has a reputation to build and maintain and a business he seemingly wants to hand down through the generations plus he just loves the Klipsch and knows they can be much better than stock. The Sonicaps in my HIIs may or may not be the biggest improvement I am hearing as I also bought the titanium diaphragms for the tweeter. But the pair moved the sound quality way up the scale for me.
I also have a set of Wharfedsle W70s. They originally came with a single pio. One was open and the other way out of spec so I just replaced them with a poly I bought locally. Now I knew what these speakers are supposed to sound like as they were not uncommon in my area when new. Mine sounded like fingernails on a blackboard. Got a set of older pio caps and subbed them in and all is good and even better.
Most recently got a set of KLH Fives. The guy I got them from had replaced the caps. These were originally mine and the tweeters were not working. He did not like the results so I ended up with them back. After curing the problems he was finding, I hooked them up. Sadly, I did not look at the caps he used. I am having an integration problem with the midrange to woofer and tweeter. I know these speakers and something is not right. I emailed the guy and asked what he used cor caps and he replied he could not remember but think they were some stock Panasonics, nothing special. I suspect the caps are the culprit but, at this time do not have the energy to dig into them, again.
Caps matter, it seems. For now, the Sonicap based on the Crites' article and results seems like a good but not crazily expensive cap line. If I do open the Fives and replace the caps, I will likely use them.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Hi Brian, I appreciate your input and experiences! The Sonicaps Gen 1 appear in my ALK Universal and as you stated in the Crites Klipsch Crossovers and rebuild kits. I think they are a safe and very cost effective choice! In my case I am using the GPA 604's that are approx $900 each and capable of incredible resolution. Same goes for the BMS 2" Mid Drivers in my KHorns @ approx $650 per driver. I am looking to go a bit above and beyond on the crossover components in search of realizing some untapped potential in these particular drivers. I still plan on putting a modest limit on spending for each component. I have in the past purchased VCap Teflons and Mundorf Silver in Oil Caps for Tube Power amps. At this time I don't plan to approach their cost especially for the larger caps needed for the crossovers. I also plan to improve the wiring involved to the crossovers and connecting to the drivers themselves. Thanks for the info on your success using PIO in a speaker crossover!
I've owned my GPA 604 III's now for about 3yrs now. My suggestion to you is to put the 604's in a box or on a baffle, give yourself time to listen to them first.
The GPA Xover is a decent one, If I were to do any thing to the new Xovers would to replace the Ground wiring with a larger gauge Silver or Mil spec 12ga (Silver plated copper). Do the same for other connecting wiring
Then use a (2) 12ga Mil spec wires to each terminal of the woofer and A single 12ga Mil spec wiring to each terminal of the HF driver... Try that first.
You can always change to higher quality Caps later.
Willie
Hi Willie,I like the way you are thinking! And I appreciate it coming from an owner of these GPA drivers! I do plan to upgrade the wiring on the crossover all around. I have some extra Anticable and 14 gauge OCC Copper single strand that I plan to use. I have been running them for a little over a week in an 11 cu ft enclosures that previously housed Altec 416 woofers. Bill gave me the proper duct sizing for the enclosures. I was all prepped to start construction of custom Altec Stonehenge type cabinets. Bought wood and getting parts and ideas together. Then after conversation with another 604 8H III owner, PaulF70. I have decided to try JE Lab OB's first. I hope to cut them out before the weekend. Paul's set is wonderful to look at too! Which direction did you chose Willie? Feel free to send me a private email. escape2cfc@yahoo.com
Merry Christmas!
Chuck
Edits: 12/25/14
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