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What can one say?
20hz to 200hz.
I'm going to have to reread the site again, so let's start off with a CoffeeTalk question.
Is this the horn Western Electric would have built had they had the computer? Discuss.
I'll let John start by saying whatever he wants to say. I wouldn't care if he went on the longest Dennis Fraker diatribe in the world.
Lay it on me. I'm begging for it.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Follow Ups:
When I was a youngster of twenty, I wanted to build a full size bass horn, but never had the room. Much later, I discovered Hornresp and my life as a horn affectionado has never been the same.
The horn requires some EQ to get down to 20 hz, but I mention that fact on my website. Efficiency drops dramatically below 25 hz, but how often do we reproduce 20 hz waves in our music. To me, music is pretty much 30hz and up with the occasional special bass effect. A pair of M-125 tube amps are more than ample (125 watts per horn segment) and the bass can become extremely uncomfortable when turned up too loud. I guess this is the place where audio nirvana becomes audio nightmare. :)
I had originally considered placing the horn's mouth near the floor, but soon discovered that the weight was concentrated on the opposite end of the horn, away from the mouth. It simply spooked the b'jesus out of me to have all the weight above the center of gravity. To each his own, though.
Because the horn is spiraled, the bass is extremely smooth and doesn't sound strained in the least. The Lab 12 drivers do an admirable job, but they tend to smear the bass above 100hz. This is why I purchased a pair of Radian Neo 2216 fifteen inch drivers. They are truly impressive and don't smear the sonics below 200 hz. Because of this fact, I found myself in a position to design a smaller mid bass horn that employs eight inch drivers (B&C 8PE21). The signature of the system has taken a huge leap forward in sound quality.
I could rattle on for hours, but don't want to hog everyone's attention. Thanks for sharing comments and opinions. This is how we build our community. :)
"I could rattle on for hours, but don't want to hog everyone's attention."
Don't worry about that. They will let you know when they have had enough of you. You will get the message.
Until then talk about your horns. I'm guessing both of our fingers hurt at the end of the day. I know mine do. Nothing wrong with writing a little every night or other. It's a board. Do it at your convience. Just see how it goes.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Very cool design.
The original horn uses a pair of Lab 12 drivers. This, commercial, design is using a pair of Radian Neo 2216 fifteen inch drivers. The power is truly inspirational, as is the extended upper range! ;)
This thing looks beautiful, but down to 20 Hz?!!! I don't think so.
Hi Ed,You are welcome to show a pic of your J horn if you have one.
"This thing looks beautiful, but down to 20 Hz?!!! I don't think so."
JoshK-"didn't do the math or sim it, but I imagine he gets a lot of room gain below the first room mode. Above the first room mode I'd be more inclined to agree with your skepticism. "
From Inlow Sound;
"Observing the ACI (blue, white, and grey) graph and my white graph, above, it becomes obvious that the wattage requirements at 20hz far outweigh the higher frequencies. Still, 20hz is doable. My calculations indicate that roughly 75 watts are required to achieve 99.2 db at 20hz. (this was measured 14 feet from the mouth of the horn). Things improve dramatically at 30hz. 13 watts gets us on par with the 20hz SPL level. At 40hz, only 6 watts are necessary.
When the 14 foot distance to the horn is halved twice, the calculated SPL becomes 112 db 1 watt/1 meter. At 20 hz, that's pretty impressive SPL for 75 watts of power."
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote in 2012;
"Sensitivity. You can trade sensitivity for low frequency extension and vis-versa. "
That explains it all.
Jamie
Edit I added the cite for BF.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 11/17/14
I don't BS. The graphs are on my web site.
John is using two together, so that their mouth couples. And it is a 25hz exponential design.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
1/8 size?
didn't do the math or sim it, but I imagine he gets a lot of room gain below the first room mode. Above the first room mode I'd be more inclined to agree with your skepticism.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Okay, let me start with a simple question.
This looks part of a three way system. That means your going to need two I believe? That's a lot of real estate.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
amazing! where can I see the plans and build thread? regards, Tony
Jean-Francois Lessard 2A3 PP amp
Marantz 7T Preamp
Klipschorns w/ALK xovers
Squeezebox Touch
Asus netbook running itunes and LMS feeding
MSB link DACIII w24/96k
MSB digital director
Technics M85 Cassette
Check it out. Seems like you would dig the whole site.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
You'll want two segments per side.... yes, lots of real estate! :)
Ugh. Refresh my memory. 150hz is when sound become mono?
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
John,You're right on time.
"You'll want two segments per side.... yes, lots of real estate! :)"
I figured that's what you had in mind. Know how? I'm crazy too.
That's one hell of a three way speaker. LOL :)
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 11/17/14
Yes, you need a large room. It's worth the effort. I never tire of the sonics I'm getting from this system.
I think you need two per side if you're going for 3-way. Here's a quote from his website: It takes two segments, and a pair of drivers (just like the Lab 12 version) to create a complete horn and will dominate the corner of your listening room.
Frode
Wow, look at that would ya.
Kloss and John have to talk. They would respect each others work. Kloss, would you like to make a comment?
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hi All,
Thanks for the posts and pics. Just home from work and I've been getting notifications all day and can't answer. That sucks. Can I catch up?
I just shot John an email.
The link is the horn's homepage.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
From some of the posts it looks like maybe everyone didn't see John's posts on the Down Firing thread, so I repost them here in their entirety.
2014/11/15
"The reason I don't fire my horns downwards is that when the axis is horizontal the mid bass horns are a dandy table top for my large paper mache horns. Another thing: in the mid-bass/mid-range, reflected sound doesn't sound as appealing to me as it does when looking into the throat of the horn. I enjoy all those little nuances in the mid bass region and a reflector diminishes the details. "
and later,
"Good to see all the avid interest in horns, especially the larger variety. When I say a "dandy" table top, I'm basically saying that the throat of the paper mache horn is at ear level when setting on top of my mid bass horns. It's just a natural way for me to do things, considering I have a large listening room.
For the average listener, their room will most likely be smaller than mine, and I can understand the need to economize on size.
If you want to make the horn compact, consider the crescent horn on my web site. It's vertical (for the most part) and has a gentle curve that won't destroy the musical details. If you want a really compact design, one could always design a mid bass horn that spirals like my bass horn. When I have more spare time (??? what's that ???) I'll design a spiral version.
In the mean time, because the spiral bass horn is extremely clean up to 200 hz, I'm designing a 150 hz mid bass horn to take the place of my current 100 hz unit. Instead of using the B&C 12PE32 it uses an 8" B&C 12PE21 driver. The 8" cone is light, the motor huge, the Qts low, and the response is spectacular. This will become my new mid bass horn. I'll be posting it on my site, soon. "
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
96 inches tall? 6 feet deep? OMG! Wonder what the wife would have to say about that.
I would design so mouth benefits from floor reinforcement. So probably flip it use a strut or leg.
If you do that, the horn will be extremely top heavy. Each segment weighs 600 lb. (1200 lb for the pair) I wouldn't want that thing getting away from me.... ;)
Kloss,Thanks for the post and pic. You are free to post that pic of the neck and driver of the 13a, so John can see your craftsmanship.
"I would design so mouth benefits from floor reinforcement. So probably flip it use a strut or leg. "
EduardG- "Absolutely agree with you. And then about 2-3 inches off the floor. We found that putting the mouth flat onto the floor creates some strange coloration - nothing dramatic, but why not do it right if you can. "
Look at how high those ceilings are. I bet John did all of that ceiling work. I'm trying to picture them on their sides. Ed might add, on their sides and lifted up 2-3 inches.
Okay, dig this. On their side lifted up two inches. They are eight foot wide. You could put midhorns and tweets at the edges, or however you like to get your stereo image, and presto, one half of your living room gone. No, I'm just joking about the last part. I say BINGO!
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 11/17/14
I guess I should've explained myself better. On the picture, those 2-3 inches of the ground recommendation would applied to the straight 80 Hz Edgarhorn. Try putting a 2x4 underneath and then listen.
So you mean 4" off the ground?
Sorry, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about deep bass. At what frequency does sound go mono? Thanks.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Well, 2x4 when put flat on the ground will allow you to raise the speaker 2" off the ground.
I just received an email requesting that I post my website address. Here it is:
www.inlowsound.com
Hi John,The link to the your site was already on the thread.
What crossover points have you played with on this sub. LOL, it's really a woofer isn't it?
I wonder if you could get away with using one and crossing it at 150hz, and then taking up with the mid/bass horns.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 11/19/14
I saw that link to my website on one of your posts, Jamie. I added the extra link for the fellow who emailed me (he/she probably didn't see your post).
I've run the Lab 12 prototype version up to 180 hz, but prefer it at 135 hz or lower. Lab 12s get a little murky above 150 hz. The commercial horn (using the Radian 2216 Neo 15) is capable of extended range (the sims predict 400 hz), and from what I hear in the fabrication shop, I have no doubt it would be happy at 200 hz. The primary problem with higher crossover points are time anomalies. The shorter the wavelength (higher crossover point), the more obvious the mismatch in distance from the bass/mid bass drivers.
Well I'm sorry this thread hasn't gotten the kind of action is deserves. It is a possibility that this is one bass horn too far. I thought I was a horn nut, but you got me beat. I would have a hard time to put one or two of these in my living room. I once read an article in a 1950s Radio-Electronics magazine entitled, "What Price 20HZ?" It was the first thing I thought of when I saw this horn.
I would like to bring up the 60hz Hyperbolic Crescent Horn.
This is much more my style. Big but not too big. Down to 60hz, hard to ask for better than that. Goes up to 400 and 500hz depending on the driver. Wow! That's three full octaves. I don't know of any other front loaded bass horns that achieve three octaves. With a B&C 10MD26 it can go to 500hz at 110db. That's the efficiency level I like to be at. The 500hz high pass allows you to do two-way. That's awesome with a horn this size and with these capabilities. Two way is a long stretch with a folded W and it only goes down to 100hz. This even beats your mid/bass horns. It's just a matter of what the hyperbolic profile does to the sound. It looks like it gets distorted when you get to 115db to 125db levels, but at 110 it looks very good. I don't intend to go that high. I wonder what a hypex profile would look like with this horn.
In short. I think these are like the ultimate J horns. I bet they beat J horns in every way.
Keep up the killer work John,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Jamie, your avid interest in my horn designs kinda makes my day. It's not often that I see someone who craves a horn's response the way I do.
The spiral bass horn is pretty exotic, and as mentioned on my website, a bit much for most audiophiles. Still, it was enjoyable to share my adventure.
I haven't fabricated the 60 hz crescent horn, but I've never been let down by Hornresp. If it says the horn will perform, then I'm certain it will.
I notice you've posted several times, recently. I've been too busy to reply. Sorry about that.
Hey Jamie,
What would be great is if you'd share your progress with this project. I'd love to see how you overcome the various challenges. I'd especially like to read your impressions of this horn upon completion.
To bad we're not neighbors! :)
"To bad we're not neighbors! :)"
LOL. I'm sure I could tote things for you, and fetch boards that are at the bottom of the lumber pile. :) I bet your neighbors can hear your stereo at night. "Are the Inlows having another party?" I live in the country, so no such worries. ;)
"What would be great is if you'd share your progress with this project. I'd love to see how you overcome the various challenges. I'd especially like to read your impressions of this horn upon completion."
Let's see. Nothing has been decided about the driver enclosure, and whether anullment is going to be used. See how quick it took to get in deep water. Too deep for me.
I'm more of a flat-pack kind of guy. With predrilled pilot holes please. You should maybe look into some kind of hybrid flat pack. Have the big stuff cut local, but you provide the smaller complicated bits. Just throwing that out there.
If you are willing to answer a couple of questions about the low pass of a mid/bass horn, then I would be happy to give you some free unsolicited advise on your Paper Tractrix horns.
To wit; Which do you prefer? Running a lowpass filter on a M/B horn, or running it's driver to it's resonant frequecny, or neither, and why?
Regards,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
" You should maybe look into some kind of hybrid flat pack. Have the big stuff cut local, but you provide the smaller complicated bits. Just throwing that out there."
Count me in! I'll take one of those kits.
No problem.
One other reason I like the Crescent horn; It means you can get horn super efficiency without needing a $10K bass compression driver. Thanks John! I owe you one.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"The primary problem with higher crossover points are time anomalies. The shorter the wavelength (higher crossover point), the more obvious the mismatch in distance from the bass/mid bass drivers."
Oh you betcha. I've never dealt with a misalignment greater that three and a half feet. I couldn't find how long the SSB horn is rolled out. I couldn't make it out on the schematic.
I guess 80hz to 200hz is the grey area, and anybody who chooses a number anywhere in between could have that number jammed side-ways up his butt by somebody. Just a thought.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Yes, I designed and built my home. I knew I'd have a horn loaded system someday.... Glad I planned ahead. :)
Edits: 11/17/14
From the dimensions don't you think that it would make more sense to either place this horn in a corer or fire it into a corner to obtain reinforcement. People only have so much space in a living room. Best regards Moray James
moray james
Never built one of the bass horns referred to in post but with mine I sometimes use in corner. You can see part of my HT systems bass horn in corner next to 13a behind altec 210
Absolutely agree with you. And then about 2-3 inches off the floor. We found that putting the mouth flat onto the floor creates some strange coloration - nothing dramatic, but why not do it right if you can.
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