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Hello all! I think I'm missing drama, slam, dynamic agility from my current system, and the only easy change to make to the system is to get new speakers. I'm running Aerial Acoustics 7b's (86 dB/2.83 Vrms/1 meter on axis) with a VTL IT-85 and ST-85 (bi-amping). I don't want to change amps, but I want more oomph to the sound, so I'm thinking high efficiency speakers are the way to go. Budget: approx. $7,500.00. I don't want to lose bass, and the Aerials go 35 cycles easy.
I've developed a short list of speakers to consider: Audio Note AN-E; Zu Audio Definition; Klipsch Cornwall III. None of the Coincident speakers fit my budget and needs. I might be able to audition the Audio Note (maybe). I won't be able to put them into corners, though, so I'm worried about how deep they'll go. People seem to think Zu Audio is dishonest about their specs. I'm worried about the Klipsch speakers not fitting my listening habits. In particular, I don't listen from the sweet spot anymore. I like to lay on the couch, or sit in the comfy chair in the corner, or in the adjoining room at the table there. It is my understanding that the horns would beam.
Any other suggestions out there? I listen to rock, folk, metal, and electronic music. Maybe I should just stick with the Aerials?
Thanks for any help you might have to offer.
May the bridges we burn light our way....
Follow Ups:
My $0.02 worth:
1- If you are going to sit off-axis or out of the sweet spot, maybe you need to rethink your choice of speakers and/or electronics. The Ohm Walsh speakers work very well in the scenario you describe, but they are not particularly tube friendly.
2- I have owned and used a variety of HE speakers, including both vintage and new. They (almost) all have something good going on, but it all depends on your room, your upstream gear and your ears. Personally, I have come to prefer horns for a larger space and "conventional" drivers for smaller rooms, but there are exceptions. I used a pair or rebuilt Cornwalls in a 10x12 room for years.
3- I agree with everything RGA said re: Audio Note speakers. I love 'em too, but they are not for everyone. If you want to try the AN sound on a budget, look for a pair of used Snell Es, , Js or Ks. (/II versions will also work, but don't try this with the /IIIs) These speakers are quite reasonable and plentiful on the used market, and they will get you about 85% of the way to a full-blown AN speaker. Also, if you decide to go with AN Es, Audio Note Kits will sell you an AN/E kit that is quite a bit less expensive than the factory made units. The kits are very easy to assemble and all you have to do is stain and finish the cabinets (or make them yourself).
Good luck. Have fun.
Lots of opinions here... Some first-hand listening by someone other than you, some hearsay, some manufacturers, some fans of various designs; it's all over the map. So...
It looks like you'll just have to make your own decision, as is always the case, based on how YOU think it will sound in YOUR room.
Personally, I'd never buy a speaker system that I haven't heard or didn't build myself. That might be just my perspective, but I think it's a prudent approach.
did anyone mention the JBL 4435? 96db and very dymanic and detailed...the altec model 19, klipschorns...all very efficient and dynamic speakers...if vintage is your bag that is...they didnīt call it the golden age of audio for nothing....all at half your budget...give them a listen. I suggest listening as much as possible in stores, friends houses, etc. before making any decision. it amazes me how some people seem to acquire speakers with auditioning first. in the end what sounds good to you, is good. regards, T
Jean-Francois Lessard 2A3 PP amp
Marantz 7T Preamp
Klipschorns w/ALK xovers
Sony CX350&CX-230 cd changers
MSB link DACIII w24/96k
MSB digital director
Luxman PD-272 TT
Technics M85 Cassette
I just read that it has to be domestically friendly....that will probably rule me out.
Where are you located geographically?
If you (or anyone who's intrigued) are in/near the Jacksonville, FL area you are more than welcome to hear some of the larger offerings from Klipsch.
I've got a large pair that will make a Cornwall (and yes, even a CornScala or LaScala) sound like toy speakers. To tell you the truth it was BEC himself that said (paraphrased) "after you hear something like these, most of these other Klipsch speakers sound like toy speakers"
I don't recall if at the time he was talking about the Jubilee or MWM with K402 on top.
Either way, I can set both up. A stereo pair of Jubilee's or a MWM double bass bin with the K402.
Neither of those will probably be too wife friendly however, you can now get the Jubilee's in Walnut/Cherry/other? finishes and not the industrial black. They are within/near your price range.
Honest offer if you're near. If you are near other Jubilee owners, I can vouch that most if not all of them, would welcome a chance to share.
You want dynamics? I'll show you dynamics!
They sound cool! Post some pics if you get a chance.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
You don't necessarily need a more sensitive speaker, you probably do need one that is easier to drive than the Ariel, or else amps that can drive the Ariel's with more ease, or both.
See the attached electrical load and phase diagram courtesy of JA. He calls these speakers a "moderately demanding load". The min. impedance is 3 ohms and the speaker is mildly reactive from 300 hZ-up.
If you can find a tube-friendly speaker with a relatively flat impedance curve that averages about 8 ohms over the frequency range; has no big negative phase angles, and is between 85-90dB, you'd probably be fine. That opens a very large range of speakers to you.
I'm just not sure about how your amps match this speaker. I'm not a biamper, but I would think that 175W from just one of your amps into those 4 ohms dips should work fine. Before, I got new speakers, I'd try pouring a little more power into those speakers. What about an SS amp?
"You don't need to be a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
"You don't necessarily need a more sensitive speaker, you probably do need one that is easier to drive"
There you have it, right here on this stage.
:(
"I think I'm missing drama, slam, dynamic agility from my current system,"
It's best to make an objective assessment of what your system isn't doing that you want it to do. The problem may not be your speakers, it may be that your amplifier isn't up to the job, or it may be that the room sound is interfering with achieving the clarity you seek, or...
You might consider getting an equalizer to tailor the sound to your liking, or maybe just turning up the midrange and treble will do the trick.
It's best to make an objective assessment of what your system isn't doing that you want it to do, before you make a significant change. (Wait, I already said that.) :)
In any case, before you go off and get directional horns or wide dispersion cones/domes, consider your room. In a fairly live and open space, horns can be excellent for you. But in a fairly dead space, you might not be so happy being relegated to a small "sweet spot". Cones and domes can sound excellent in either.
So, consider your space. Do you have a large percentage of hard surfaces, not over-cushy ("big soft") furniture, and a fairly open home? Or, do you have something more toward the opposite?
I'm a big fan of matching speakers to rooms and listening habit preferences, so these things matter to me. Personally, I don't want to have to sit in one of two chairs where the sound is "perfect". I'm more like you - I want it to sound great over a large area. Yes, there is a "sweet spot" in my house, but I can wander around and it still sounds great!
Our good buddy Duke might want to chime in here regarding the wide and even dispersion thingy, and other thoughts.
hth
This is a good point. A lot of audiophile horns today have extremely narrow dispersion creating a "head in the vise" effect. This includes, especially, the typical tractrix round horn. Radial horns have less of this effect, and vintage multicell horns can also be satisfying. However, for a more even dispersion, similar to a cone driver, some sort of contemporary constant-directivity solution would be best. There are a number of solutions here, but I would suggest a conical design. NOTE: all constant-directivity horns require equalization. Basically, by spreading the high frequencies over a wider area, you are lowering their level at any one area. So, you have to boost them.
"But in a fairly dead space, you might not be so happy being relegated to a small "sweet spot". Cones and domes can sound excellent in either."
Horns come in a wide range of dispersion patterns. I've owned horns with horizontal patterns as narrow as 60 degrees and as wide as 130.
Right! And direct radiator speakers can have a very narrow "one seat sweet spot" too. I've heard some Magicos and Sonus Fabers at a local audio salon that were notable one-seat-wonders. I thought the Focals they demonstrated at a later date sounded better in this regard, and they cost some $10,000 less. K Horns, while they sound good in terms of dynamics, are not known for being "imaging" speakers. PWK never bought into the whole time alignment thing. I've heard K Horns in smallish rooms, and I would'nt expect a narrow sweet spot to be a problem with them. It all depends on what you mean by "small room".
Paul
It is very easy. Sell everything and start from scratch.'No time or patience to DIY.' - Then stick with what you have and stop complaining.
Edits: 03/24/12 03/24/12
Audiokinesis Prismas are a constant directivity design that will be great for off-axis listening and will have great dynamics too. The stated 93db sensitivity is based on TS parameters that tend to be conservative. More like mid 90's would be typical for this design. The klipsch forte for example, is rated at 98db while its woofer the k23 has a sensitivity of 92.5db based on TS params. The prismas' older and slightly more expensive sibling, the Jazz Module is highly reviewed. According to the designer Duke, the Prisma is the equal to the Jazz Module in performance.
Audio Note specs are for corner positions - they won't meet spec out of corners - that having been said they're tuned port frequency is 28-29 hz and you will get that flat in room not in corners - which is still exceptional. They're very large standmounts.But you also have to take 3db sensitivity away from them -
That having been said - listen to them out of corners - it doesn't really matter for pure sound quality even when not positioned correctly they're the best under $10,000 loudspeaker I've heard in 25 years. It's not just about numbers and spec sheets.
Plenty of speakers will claim 30-40hz the trick is what does it sound like doing it.
Mind you I like other speakers but they typically cost a lot more - The AN E/SPE HE is probably the perfect high end loudspeaker and they one I want. It has enough resolution to support the ultra expensive front ends - has enough bass that you won't be looking to add subwoofers - cohesion from the two drivers is as good as any two way gets (and a problem for horns) efficiency is high enough that 8 watts will be more than loud enough for virtually all music. They're position friendly as well. In fact I would look at the AN J - It has the same exact drivers just in a smaller cabinet.
These cabinets were designed by L.L. Beranek and have essentially been with us since the 1940s so they've stood the test of time.
Don't discount the new Heritage Klipsch remakes - sweetspots and all that blather is well and good but sometimes we let the audiophile crap get in the way of stuff that sounds good. The Klipsch and Altecs I've heard have a lot of dynamic scale that the AN speakers don't match.
Horns have that certain something that the silk domed AN speakers don't possess. I prefer the ANs for the other things they bring to the table - a stability across larger genres of music - less bite and more microdynamic nuance and more subtlety but they don't have the macrodynamic wollop. The AN's are easy to listen to off axis - I can't say that horns have really been as bad as they get a reputation for in this regard though.
Based on the music you listen to I would probably lean toward Klipsch - The AN's are primarily designed for classical and Jazz - they have an elegant kind of sound and are somewhat more diplomatic in comparison to the horns. I think the AN's are the best all-rounders I've heard but for your music and if you don't stray from it - I would probably lean to something like the Klipsch or in the Gallo 3.5 camp. This speaker is also somewhat deceptive as reports I've been reading indicate that it does very well with lowish powered amps. The 3.5 has incredible start stop motion and can hit very very hard with this kind of music. And they look cool to boot.
The thing is like I said - lots of good speakers I have heard plenty of horns own a horn - my first speakers were horns - I've heard the big expensive horns - I stand by the AN speaker comment being the best under $10k. There is more to this than just loud and macrodynamic impact and High sensitivity.
At CES 2010 AN was one of the only rooms playing stuff like the Daft Punk, The Evil Nine, Nightwish, Slipknot. Peter enjoys embarrassing other rooms with his smallish 2 way and his 8 inch driver and his 20 watt amplifier that have much deeper bass, much tighter sound, and can belt it at you while the room down the hall with 1000 watt amps sound puny and other big speakers with 2 12 inch woofers sound feeble in comparison. It's the balance between level/bass/WAF/domestically sane size of speakers/price/sound quality, treble extension etc etc.
I maintain that you still need a loudspeaker that has nuance subtlety and "beauty" and to me the Horns typically bully the music and the ears somewhat. YMMV. And this is where they beat stuff like AvanteGarde and Klipsch and Altec IMO.
Edits: 03/23/12 03/23/12
I'd like to ask you some questions about Audio Note speakers. Please email me.
Regards
Jim
Sorry Jim - my e-mail is rausten@dagogo.com
You can also ask questions of Dagogo's editor - Constantine Soo as he owns AN E speakers - while I merely want to own them. (I have AN J's though which is almost the same).
While it's pretty tough to tell from youtube here are a couple of clips that have the AN E with the type of music you are considering.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAuPIXXiWGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddfz99K2Uf8&feature=related
This clip is one of their employees playing electric guitar through an Ongaku into the AN E as speakers. The most expensive guitar amplifier in the world :-)
Edits: 03/23/12 03/23/12
How much room do you have should be the first question you need to ask yourself.
Me, I would be buying a pair of Danley SH60s and DTS10 or 20.
Zu is full of ish...you can't do the numbers they claim with the speakers and enclosure they have. Same goes for AudioNote.
If you are going to lay out the money, do it right and do it once...DSL.
I'll have to second this recommendation, even though I haven't heard the Danley SH-60 (i.e., with ~60 degrees of constant coverage). The advantage of Tannoy designs are co-axial midrange/tweeter frequencies, but the disadvantage is direct-radiator drivers - which result in a lot of AM distortion at higher SPLs and non-constant coverage vs. frequency. The Danley SH series basically eliminates those disadvantages in a multi-entry conical horn design. The Cornwall III will be a close contender except for the non-coaxial tweeter/midrange horns that aren't time-aligned (unless you tri-amp using digital delay to correct or you move the tweeter to the back of the cabinet top using a separate tweeter mounting baffle to time-align.
The only other speaker design that I know will knock your socks off is the Klipsch K-402 horn with a good compression driver like the Faital Pro or TAD 4002, suitably EQed for said driver/horn combination. This horn/driver will work on top of a Klipsch La Scala or Cornwall cabinet (or anything else that can support below 400 Hz): it would be hard to ever let go of a couple of these once you hear them - you couldn't ever go back. But they're not small.
Chris
"As far as the ear can tell, consistently clean and spacious bass can be reproduced only by a driver unit coupled to a horn-type acoustic transformer..."; Jack Dinsdale, May 1974
Hello,
co DIY, let the carpenter built it,
and from the rest of the money make holidays,
look my Saxphon, Posaune XL, RDH20
near 100 dB 1 W 1m, no Bassreso, down to 30 Hz,
wide sweet spot by invers indirect driver.
hm-moreart DIY horn speaker
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
Rethm Maarga. 25 to 20k, 8 ohms, 99db, $8750.
No idea how it sounds. Perhaps worth checking out.
Cheers
Bill
With $7500, I would talk to Bill Woods of Acoustic Horn (acoustichorn.com). I would go with something like a vintage JBL 2" exit driver on one of his 300hz conical horns crossed around 500hz; a tweeter like a Fostex or B&C bullet crossed around 8000hz; and one or two 15" woofers for below 500hz. I would probably put the woofers in a sealed box and use a subwoofer, personally. If you buy nice vintage drivers like Altec 416 or JBL D120 on eBay, you can easily do all this for $7500 and have a truly great system.
Bill Woods' horns seem expensive, but you also get his advice and crossover design. My suggestion: pay the money, and get something great the first time, instead of dinking around iwth it for ten years.
Another option, for a little more money, is the Danley SH-50. These are more like $8000, and you'd need a subwoofer. But ... really really good.
103 dB sensitivity and 20Hz extension. Of course, your 75wpc amp would just be idling...
I don't think that 86dB speakers will ever give you what you're looking for, regardless of their other specs. Once you live with high-sensitivity speakers, the others sound like there's a wet blanket permanently between you and your music.
"Your liver suffers dearly now for youthful magic moments...so rock on completely with some brand new components"
For me horn based loudspeakers are superior for off axis listening. They fill your listening space with even SPL. I would look into audiokinesis. Altec or JBL horns. http://www.audiokinesis.com/
Note that just because a speaker is high efficiency doesn't mean it's going to be more dynamic, have more "oomph" as you say, than a low efficiency speaker. The speaker must be capable of high output and small high efficiency single driver systems or those using small woofers and dome tweeters generally have no more output than low efficiency speakers.
Now when you get into big woofers (15s or double 12s) or basshorns and compression drivers on horns, now you're talking big-time dynamics.
IMO of the speakers you mentioned only the Cornwall is a real heavy hitter.
I agree with Tom. Go with a 15" bass in a decent BR box, and you will get the slam you are looking for. In my opinion, I think the 'Cornscala" from Bob Crites is a very good way to go, with the minimum of effort. Bob can supply everything except the basic enclosure, which would be simple to make. He does offer the front baffle, routed and ready to use. The components he uses are much better than the Klipsch parts. There are 4 versions, all slightly different. The Selenium D405 driver is great. I use it myself in my current system. You may even be able to talk him into supplying the enclosure, as well. If not, maybe you can find someone local to make it for you. If you go this route, you will spend much less than your $7500 budget (~2k).
I concur re: the Cornscala. The 4 Ohm bass driver impedance should not be an issue for your amps.
I have not heard Cornscala but know someone who owns and very much likes his. Quality product and seemingly an excellent value. Well within your budget, you could have some very nice cabinets made.
Best of luck to you.
I would call it something else.
My audio journey began with Klipsch lust. I never had a Heritage series speaker from Klipsch, but the La Scala was always on my mind.
I wish I had the time to build those. I have the woodworking skills, and probably the tools necessary, but I just don't have the time these days. Maybe someday.
Thanks for the suggestion. It really got me curious.
May the bridges we burn light our way....
LaWall perhaps is slightly better.
Cheers
Bill
Hi all ! If I had the money I think the Tannoy's would be on my short list . For a bunch less those Pendragon's look really hard to beat . I have the Lore's and am very pleased .
Are you willing to go the DIY route? If so, the Econowave project over at Audiokarma seems like something that would be good and is very customisable.
IG
No time or patience to DIY.
May the bridges we burn light our way....
from the usual sources. That is the nature of genuine high efficiency systems. They ares pretty far left of centre and not appealing to a wide portion of the audio equipment buying market. Many polarise opinion, though this is not purely a function of being high efficiency or horn. Most of us have to invest effort as well as $$$ to obtain a suitable quality high efficiency system.I really don't know what readily-available high efficiency speakers to suggest. When I was looking about 9 months ago I found very few I would opt for... Sonist? Pi? Maybe Tannoy (if you have lowish impedance amps)? Zu would not float my boat, but may suit you?
I ended up coordinating a custom design and build, which should arrive any day now... Some learning, (actually, lots of threads and a few articles read over the course of a few years to help me understand the inherent strengths and compromises of various approaches), a leap of faith and ~$6K5+ was all it took.
Cheers.
Edits: 03/22/12
... and it's no surprise that all your effort led you to a custom design/build. Once you know what you want that well, no one will have exactly what you want. I hope it totally rocks your boat!
I hadn't heard of Sonist or Pi. I'll check them out. Thanks!
May the bridges we burn light our way....
I spent a lot of time non-critically researching... just some knowledge build up over a few years without having defined any particular ideal/direction. It helped me it understand what I would like to achieve with my system.
The custom build has a few more compromises than I would like, but was the most likely to deliver a fair portion of the important stuff, while meeting suiting my practical constraints. Should be nice. If it works out I might put together a document outlining how a similar result could be achieved, but will not compromise any contributors' intellectual property.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
Cheers.
.
You may want to take a look at the Tekton Design Pendragons.
98 db and 8 Ohms.I've never heard them but the Part Time Audiophile seemed to like them a lot.
http://www.tektondesign.com/pendragon.html
Edits: 03/21/12 03/21/12
Thanks for the suggestion! They're on the list. I'll see if there is any way I can audition them.
May the bridges we burn light our way....
If you listn to metal and electronica...a 15s a must. The midbass satisfaction is hard to beat. For 7500 there's a lot to look at. Maybe a prosound offering. If you DIY there's infinate possibilties. No need to change amps.
Is that the Tannoy that the previous poster recommended?
May the bridges we burn light our way....
Tannoy 15" DC is the best speaker design ever, and the 215 DMT II is one of the best Tannoy ever built IMHO
However, I should have mentioned that the speakers need to be somewhat domestically friendly. No way my wife allows those in the living room.
Thanks for the suggestion, though. I'd really like to hear a pair of those.
May the bridges we burn light our way....
You may want to look at them...
As far as a fairly balanced speaker with a lot of capability, the Cornwalls are very good. The fact that many horns beam shouldn't be an issue because many times when you are on axis the horns can be to hot. Off axis or in the other room, it will sound more pleasing and live.
PeterZ
Ditto on the Pi speakers. If you toe them in as designed, narrow sweet spot will NOT be a problem -- you'll have a wider sweet spot than you'll get with anything else. The Econowaves are nice, but are basically a DIY approach based on Pi designs. Audiokinesis are another line made on the same idea (controlled directivity to provide ultrawide sweet spot).
Also there are Geddes speakers, but you'll have a hard time finding a place to hear them first unless you are near Michigan.
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