 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
74.184.132.240
I have a crawl space above the ceiling in my listening room which also doubles as a living room with WAF issues (meaning no subs in the livivng room).
Anybody try to ceiling mount subs? FWIW I also have crawl space under the floor. Both crawl spaces have plenty of room for just about anything (big cabinets or even one of Danley's Tapped Horn contraptions).
Follow Ups:
nt
Cut-Throat
Are you suggesting something? As in something derogitive towards IB?
I personally don't like ANY speakers mounted inside walls......And I don't like Subs that you can tell are pounding out Bass Notes....Hence, when I first got my REL sub, I cannot remember where I had heard this but....Subs should be seen and not heard....
Cut-Throat
Edits: 02/21/12
You should just hear your speakers having really nice bass.
"You should just hear your speakers having really nice bass."
OK, I think everyone gets that.
But, do you think there is no way to get IB to sound good? Even tweaking with attenuation and equalization?
I'm talking two channel audiophile approved clean, non-boomy bass in between 50hz and 15hz. I want to hear, loud and clear with decay, the individual pluck of a double bass.
Are you saying that no matter the location or integration, IB's are muddy or lag?
Thanks for the response. I have been reading up on all things Infinite Baffle (IB).
It looks like a good solution for my situation. Trying to zero in on the highest Sound Quality of fast tight tuneful bass to keep up with horns.
Maybe...2 boxes in the ceiling in front my speakers with 2 Dayton Audio 15" per IB box??
I read somewhere that IB compromised SQ compared to the "line array" design.
A word of caution, don't mount them directly into the wall. I tried that and there's no way to stop the wall from shaking. IT's suprising how 2-4 oz of cone can shake a whole room when it hits against the wall. I'm redoing my IBs by building a push pull manifold so the woofers are counter ballanced and fire from the side of the manifold into the room. Also the manifold will sit behind the wall and not touch it. In theory this should greatly reduce secondary vibrations with the air movement from the woofers beeing the only force at work.
PPSLIB= push pull slot load infinate baffle
I should have this working in a few days. I'm using Acoustic Elegance IB15 woofers.
"don't mount them directly into the wall"
Well... how do you accomplish that in a ceiling?
Why did you choose the Acoustic Elegance IB15 woofers?
I guess that would be hard.
I like the AE stuff but if you want you project finished in a week or two another woofer would be better. AE takes a long time to build thier products.
Hmmm... maybe from the floor.
Yes, the AE seems like thoughtful people.
Why PPSLIB? I don't see a definitive design in my research. It looks like people are pointing drivers in every direction.
And it doesn't seem to matter what the size of cabinet is or the opening into the room.
Several reasons, push pull slot load cancels both secondary vibration and harmonic distortion. Although with IB the drivers arn't as closely coupled as in a boxed design so harmonic dostortion may not get canceled as much. There ia also some compresion because the slot has less area than both woofers together. This will increase air vilocity. Check out the link for a behind the wall project. Just copy it but point it down instead. It'll take two or four woofers.
Scott
Thanks. That's what I was looking for. It actually looks pretty easy (even for someone like me). I was thinking push pull was one cone pointing in and one out...but it looks like both pointing in is the way to go.
I hope you include a few pictures and your listening impressions.
Most of the listening comments I've read seem to be about the the impressive low frequencies and spl's (aka action movies). I'm not completely convinced that IB's are going to fit in seamlessly with the rest of my system (horns and 4 watt amps) .
Do you think IB's can deliver clean, tight and defined bass (between 20hz and 50hz). Are you going to filter out the lowest frequencies as I imagine it would wreak havoc with a turntable. I want to hear every note Ray Brown plucks....nothing mushy or it will drive me nuts (and I'll be stuck with holes in my carpet and floors).
Ok...time to contemplate placement, equalization and amplifying.
Greetings,
FWIW I use a mono 8 driver AE-IB15 Infinite baffle subwoofer system in my 2 channel audio-only set up. I run it from 50Hz and down. It goes down to 20Hz quite easily. More important that just the remarkable frequency response, is the sound quality. If you go to the "cult" I have a thread: "Legend3215 project". It's a few years old, so you'll have to go back several pages to find it. My driver mounting method did garner some negative attention though. In my very strong opinion, it's the end all, be -all, last word in subwoofing bass.
Here's an interesting discussion from a decidedly more 2 channel perspective:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=7&postID=17220#17220
The quote, "be detached mechanically from the floor in order to avoid such "bone vibrations"" caught my attention.
I am thinking about supporting the IB box on the floor of my sub floor crawl space and then making some sort of bladder that seperates the ib box and the floor. Maybe out of rubber material used in auto dampening, like this:
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/vibration-mat/damplifier-pro.php
AE delivered two IB15-8 ohm woofers. They are now mounted in the manifold cone to magnet and wired in parellel but out of phase. There are two manifolds mounted close to the front wall bottom corners, behind the wall fireing into the room. The second manifold has two AE TD15S-4 ohm woofers (untill the other two IBs arive) again monted cone to magnet but wired in series but out of phase. A quick sweep shows both manifolds rolling off in the mid 20s with output down to 10hz. The 15S set measures 4-6db louder than the IBs.
Sonicly the setup is awsome. Bass is unwavering and powerfull.
While running loud, I mean very loud, the cones move less than a 1/4 inch. Fast air flow can be felt comming out of the manifold but the manifold has little vibration of it's own, same with the wall. The push-pull cancilation works very well. I wouldn't be afraid to tie these into the wall or ceiling. The manifold could be built to be lagged into the rafters fireing down into the room.
For woofers I would consider any one with Qt above .4 and an Fs below 25hz and large Vas, long Xmax. I think the most important parameter is the Fs as low as possible. Qts and Vas are secondary considerations factoring in room gain and EQ as long as Xmax and power are available to take the EQ. A woofer with large Vas will be more efficient and easier to drive at low power. The Dayton Titanc seems a great choice wired in series to save the amp some strain or one channel per woofer if the budget permits. One pair should be good for most people, two pairs even out the room response some. Parts Express has several 15s that'll work just fine some costing below $100.00. 4 Titanics with one or two of their 1000Watt plate amps wire in a seres\parrellel for 4 ohms(one amp) or 8 ohms (two amps)total in a room would destroy the place!!
On a side note: My manifolds use 2.5 to one conpresion so the slot is only 8" wide. The high frequencies drop above 200hz. This small of a slot wouldn't work well above 100hz I plan on crossing at 70hz where a natural room dip occures.
Scholll.. thanks for the info.
A couple of questions:
Are you saying that cheaper drivers (as long as they have the appropriate specs) will sound just as good as the more expensive woofers? Same question but insert amps. I didn't see any $100 subs at Dayton... the cheapest were $250. The Acoustic Elegance IB15 seem like the top of the class in IB woofers although I don't want to spend anymore than I have to, but... if they sound the best then I'm in.
I also plan on crossing over somewhere sub 70hz. The clearance between floor joist are a hair under 15". Is that too much space? or should I not worry about that and just build the box and opening according to the space that I have? By the way- what exactly is the manifold? Is that the opening?
I was going to place a couple of subs I have on their backs and move them around the room to experiment with placement. The best place from a practical perspective are just in front of the speakers. Any thoughts or advice with placement?
Of all the things I've read, nobody talks about time alignment. I'm thinking that placing them as close as possible to my speakers will address this issue but may not be the best solution for addressing room modes. I'm also thinking that if I put them near the speakers that I may be able to cross them over at higher point which may help with directional issues as you go higher in the registers. I don't want to insert another xover in my system at this point so (for now anyway) I will just be coming in under my current bass which rolls off around 40hz.
Experimenting will be the final judge... but I won't be cutting too many holes in my floor, so just thinking out loud about possibilities.
Hello look my SUB FANFARE, with measurements and feedback,
http://www.hm-moreart.de/106.htm
hm-moreart DIY horn speaker
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm
I use a pair of 18" woofers mounted at the top of the ceiling and vented into the attic. Performance is rather good.
This is mostly due to WAF issues. I though of making a nice 8 cu ft coffee table, but really the infinite baffle works even better.
I have woofers that have a fairly low fs, but also low Qts, also 97 db efficiency. They were really designed for a vented enclosure I start to get a 6 db/oct rolloff below 80 HZ. My low pass crossover just starts with a first order starting at 20 HZ to avoid the rolloff. I also have a 2nd order low pass at 150HZ. I run horns above 150hz.
If you vent into the ceiling, you may want to think about fire protection. If something burns through the woofer cones, you do not want to light up the attic. I faced the attic side with drywall far enough that a fire would not spread easily.
I thought about starting a horn about 6 feet into the attic and letting the top room corners continue as the horn. I just am not just not happy with a possible quick rolloff below 30 hz. Also, I would need to get a delaying device if I went with a horn for the subwoofer. Plus I am happy enough with my current configuration.
Anyway, I would recommend infinite baffle venting either into a floor or attic.
I was in a music room of an old private estate in Bedford, NY built circa the 1920's and the music room contained a pretty large Aeolian pipe organ complete with an echo chamber mounted on a wall opposite the main pipe chamber.
Very nice indeed but the BIG surprise were the 32 foot wood pipes laying horizontally under the floor in the crawl space.
Sadly the organ wasn't working but I'm sure those hidden 32's added the lowest bass and gave the floor a good shake to be felt through the feet.
A residence organ in Branford, CT has all of the pipes under the music room floor and they speak through grates in the floor.
Guess it depends on what kind of sub you have in mind but if it's just to shake and feel more than to add audible upper bass I think the crawl space would work well and might be less likely to rattle the sheetrock screws out of the ceiling.
"Both crawl spaces have plenty of room for just about anything (big cabinets or even one of Danley's Tapped Horn contraptions)."
Parts Express has a relatively inexpensive long throw 15" specifically designed for what you would like to do.
Dayton Audio IB385-8 15" Infinite Baffle Subwoofer Part # 295-455
Depending on the SPL desired, you could use 1 to 4 (or more).
Mounting the speakers in a box (plenum) with the cones pointing at each other reduces floor or ceiling vibration, and puts the cone in a vertical orientation, generally a better idea to avoid cone sag. The outside of the box is simply left open to the basement or attic, the plenum exit can have grill cloth of the same color as the walls stretched over, the installation can be almost invisible, and takes up very little space.
I often think of doing the above, but my 2x12" sub is "hidden" in the record storage rack, and is adequate for the levels we listen at.
The first time I met Dr. Edgar was when he had built a basshorn for a customer that was going mount in an attic space and fire down in the the listening room through the ceiling. It sounded great.
There are several approaches that you could look into: Horns, Tapped Horns, Infinite Baffles.
But as far as WAF goes, all of them have a point of entry into the space.
Have fun and go big.
eso
They were a carnival of American decay on parade, and they had no idea of the atrocity they had inflicted upon themselves.“ Henry Chinaski
One of the most impressive bass sounds I ever heard was a guy who mounted an EV 18W woofer on a baffle and sealed it in his fireplace. He liked pipe organ music. I thought the house was going to fall down on the low notes.
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
