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DrM and I have and as I reported in SET Asylum it works very well with SETs and high efficiency horns. We used 30 AWG wire, 20' long, to great effect. It outperformed my Cardas Hexlink 5C. It appears to work well only when the current requirements are small enough, like in horns over 103 dB efficient. Extremely fine detailing, but may sound "polite" to you at first and not dynamic enough. After deliberating, DrM and I both feel it's more like live, just removal of intertransient grundge.Kurt
Follow Ups:
I am not sure ig thisis as small as 30 gauge, but
After trying Kimber, Nordost + Goertz
I have been using Mapleshades double Helix
It is very clear, neutral and precise
I can't tell if its still breaking in, or if its just that I'm so suprised every time I sit down to listen. This thin wire stuff with efficient horns is wonderful.I've had an errant high frquency problem I've been chasing down in my system. The highs are just too hard, and edgy or something. I put grid stoppers on my phono stage, OK, that helps. Check the RIAA, looks good. Haven't measured it thought, perhaps its off. New diffusors from Bert for the Oris, that helps. Finally, removing the thick cables I used for speaker wires, and replacing with THIN ones does it.
What I hear is that my source is delivering all sorts of high frequency information, but the damn cables was messing it up so much, that it was getting dissociated from the musical events they originally came from. Is this time smear? I don't know, but now the very high frequency part of the music is tied to the rest.
As Kurt says, for all of us used to listening to conventional stereo's, it may be percieved as less dynamic. My wife says "Its softer on top", and she doesn't like it as much. But to me, whose spent a LOT of time playing in a symphony, I can tell you its less artificial.
Try it ..
Dan
Try 30ga. Silver with a Teflon Dialectric.. even better IMHO..Tim
I use some very fine multi-stranded 30 gauge silver, Teflon coated, shotgun twisted triple run with my horns. You'll see it come up on Ebay sometimes pre cut in like 50" pieces. Just tightly twist 3 together then twist it with the same thing with the return. I guess it ends up being around 22 gauge. The speaker wires are all 4' long and a 16 ohm load so I figure it's heavy enough. It ends up being around $1.50 a foot so it's pretty cheap considering commercial snake oil pricing. I also use Teflon coated silver foil interconnects. Never tried magnet wire except in the ground of amps.
Magnetar..Warning: Goverment studies have proven horn loudspeakers are addicting and may lead to intense, uncontrollable musical bliss.
but, as I've said elsewhere, I've not had good results with silver. My old cables were some 24 GA silver "Garth" cables, and they don't have the best high frequency performance. But perhaps in 30 GA they do fine. Problem is that its an expensive experiment.Dan
Here's one for involving your spouse in the hobby...I was whining about the obscene cost of silver wire and my wife asks me "how much do you need?". I said 10 feet - she said that's about $10. With shipping. Boom.My wife makes jewelry and you can purchase .999 fine silver wire in any gauge you want for less than a buck per foot from any good jewelry supply catalog. Pick up some teflon spaghetti tube at 50 cents per foot and you can experiment all you want.
Now if she can figure out silver foil in oil caps, I'm in heaven...
Pete
nt
Try 30ga. solid core silver with Teflon dialectric...it's even better.Tim
KS,Small gauge wire has the same effect as that of inserting a series resistance in a drive circuit that uses a heaver gauge wire. It raises system [Qt]. If the wire gets hot, then ...
See the following references for details concerning the effect that speaker cable has on driver output:Regards,
WHG
Title: Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing
Publication: AES-J, Vol. 28, No. 5 pg. 310 (1980)
URL: http://www.aes.org/journal/search.html
Author: R.A. Greiner
Abstract: Loudspeaker cables are investigated to determine if they exhibit transmission-line characteristics. Lumped representations of cables are suggested with consideration of the effects cable parameters might have on the audio signal being transmitted.
Title: Effects of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions
Publication: AES-J, Vol. 39, No 6, pg. 461 (1991)
URL: http://www.aes.org/journal/search.html
Author: Fred E. Davis
Abstract: Loudspeaker cables are among the least understood yet mandatory components of an audio system. How cables work and interact with loudspeaker and amplifier is often based more on presumption and speculation than on fact. The literature on loudspeaker ...
..My speakers are 101 db and present a benigne load ( but at 4 ohm)..even then I would not expect high current to pass..( max output it 3,5 watts anyway.) nothing will get hot at 16 ohm and 100db+..well your ears maybe ;-) currents are rather marginal..from a practical point 30 gauge may be a little thin..(and scores low on macho factor)
runs are only 2 meters each..
any effect would be minimal..thinner is better (at least from what I have heard).. I use Ubyte-2 coax X cables by the way
now a 10 kw PA system with 100ft of cable is a totally different game... I think the AES papers are more geared toward those situtations
In a low impedance circuit, such as that for an amp/driver, a small change in resistance is significant. [Rg] for an audio amp is typically < 1 Ohm. A 40 ft loop (2-cond. 20 Ft. run) of 30 awg. wire = approx. 4 Ohms. Primarily what you are hearing is the significant change in system [Qt] that takes place when a "thin wire is used" Most driver/enclosure (horn) design assumes [Rg] = 0.1 Ohm. Note that for the driver alone [Qes] = (([Re]+[Rg])/[Bl]^2)*([Mms]/[Cms])^(1/2). If the system is over damped ([Qt] < 0.707), adding resistance may be beneficial, otherwise generally it is bad news. Typical driver [Re] ranges from 3 - 12 Ohms. The table below gives dc resistance for wire sizes most likely to be used in speaker/amp circuits.Regards,
WHG
In a low impedance circuit, such as that for an amp/driver, a small change in resistance is significant. [Rg] for an audio amp is typically < 1 Ohm. A 40 ft loop (2-cond. 20 Ft. run) of 30 awg. wire = approx. 4 Ohms. Primarily what you are hearing is the significant change in system [Qt] that takes place when a "thin wire is used" Most driver/enclosure (horn) design assumes [Rg] = 0.1 Ohm. Note that for the driver alone [Qes] = (([Re]+[Rg])/[Bl]^2)*([Mms]/[Cms])^(1/2). If the system is over damped ([Qt] < 0.707), adding resistance may be beneficial, otherwise generally it is bad news. Typical driver [Re] ranges from 3 - 12 Ohms. The table below gives dc resistance for wire sizes most likely to be used in speaker/amp circuits.Regards,
WHG
Yeah, but this horn has no appreciable T/S parameters to speak of (Lowthers with "off-the-chart" numbers) and they do not operate near any resonant cutoff frequency because the horn cuts it off before the driver does.So a lot of high frequency horns are like this, which is also a lot like tweeters. Tweeters are not designed with Qts in mind when crossed over well clear and above where Qts takes effect. And that's why it's still okay to use series resistors in tweeters and midrange drivers for attenuation purposes and still have good transient behavior.
So I don't know exactly how series resistance is playing the only role in INCREASING the damping down of this horn that controls the cone better and allows more detail to pass through at middle and high frequencies. According to this argument the opposite if anything should have happened. It "should" have gotten more sloppy and less distinct, but then again Qts is not a factor really.
Kurt
KS,It is my understanding that long and lengthy dissertations concerning speaker wire are verboten on this forum. The two references provided earlier address the speaker wire issue with a degree of objectivity not likely found elsewhere. There scope is not limited to PA settings, so an assertion to the contrary does not constitute a basis for ignoring them or the findings contained within them.
I have addressed your comments reproduced here as paragraphs [1], [2] & [3].
Regards,
WHG
[1] Yeah, but this horn has no appreciable T/S parameters to speak of (Lowthers with "off-the-chart" numbers) and they do not operate near any resonant cutoff frequency because the horn cuts it off before the driver does.
Comment: The horn driver has a set of parameters, and they are important. Never identified them as T/S parameters. That is solely your characterization. By the way, T/S parameters are nothing more than a recast of the electrical, mechanical, and acoustical parameters of the driver/enclosure system (horn included). To suggest that such a system has “no appreciable T/S parameters” is utter nonsense, even for those using Lowther drivers.
[2] So a lot of high frequency horns are like this, which is also a lot like tweeters. Tweeters are not designed with Qts in mind when crossed over well clear and above where Qts takes effect. And that's why it's still okay to use series resistors in tweeters and midrange drivers for attenuation purposes and still have good transient behavior.
Comment: [Qts], the quality factor of the driver alone, is not mentioned in my post. [Qt] for the system of driver, driver/amp circuit, back and front chambers, phase plug and horn body is addressed there.
[3] So I don't know exactly how series resistance is playing the only role in INCREASING the damping down of this horn that controls the cone better and allows more detail to pass through at middle and high frequencies. According to this argument the opposite if anything should have happened. It "should" have gotten more sloppy and less distinct, but then again Qts is not a factor really.
Comment: You need to reread my previous post. What is clearly implied there, is that system [Qt] is raised when the sum of [Re]+[Rg] is increased, which is the same as saying system damping is reduced. The last part of paragraph [3] parrots this finding. So, no issue anymore! Right?
Note also, that given the band pass nature of horn loaded systems, increasing [Qt] also reduces system bandwidth characterized by [wl] & [wu].
[Qt] = [w0]/([wu]-[wl]) = (1/([Rae]+[Rac]+[Rat]))*([Mac]/[Cat])^(1/2)
where,
[w0] - system resonance ([wl]*[wu])^(1/2)
[wl] - lower frequency bound (-3 db point)
[wu] - upper frequency bound (-3 db point)
[Rae] - Acoustical Resistance that models electrical loses
= ([Bl]^2)/{([Re]+[Rg])*([Sd]^2)}
[Re] – circuit loop DC resistance) including voice coil and leads
[Rg] – source DC resistanceNotes:
(1)Other parameters given here can be considered constant for the purposes of this discussion.
(2)The above characterization is for the mid band response of a horn system.
(3)HF horn response is modeled using the second system resonance associated with the front cavity. Again [Re] & [Rg] play a significant role (See [Rae] definition above).
[wa] = (1/([Mac]*[Caf])*(1+([Rae]+[Rac])/[Rat])^(1/2)
– resonant frequencyand
[Qa] = ((1+([Rae]+[Rac])/[Rat])^(1/2))*{([Rae]+[Rac])*(([Caf]/[Mac])^(1/2))+(1/[Rat])*(([Mac]/[Caf])^(1/2))}^-1
– system Q for low pass model[Qa] = 0.5 is a typical value for best results.
(4) An ideal piston movement is assumed for modeling the driver diaphragm. At the onset of diaphragm breakup modes, some irregularity in response will be noticed that becomes severe when [Qt](or [Qa]) is sufficiently increased. In this model the effect of voice coil inductance is considered negligible at the frequencies of concern.
(5) For a fuller treatment of horn/driver modeling, see the following reference:
[043] Title: Introduction to Electro-acoustics and Audio Amplifier Design, Second Edition.
Publication: Kendall/Hunt Publishing Co., 1999, ISBN 0-7872-6093-2
Author: W. Marshall Leach, Jr.
Abstract: This book is an outgrowth of a senior level elective course in audio engineering that the author has taught to electrical engineering students at the Georgia Institute of Technology. The first part of the book covers basic acoustics as it pertains to the field of audio engineering. Remaining chapters, address the application of the tools of electro-acoustics, to the design of loudspeakers, their enclosures, crossovers, networks, acoustic horns, and audio amplifiers.
URL: http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/ee4026/notes.html
This is a little more formal than I'm accustomed to and I won't be able to deny your analysis nor your references. I read the paper on speaker cables about 15 years ago and while I agree to that I also think it doesn't finish the topic. Jon Risch, Malcolm Hawksford, and Allen Wright all have some more written, and it's rather controversial stuff. There is no debate from me. You either subscribe to their ideas or you don't. That's enough of that topic.Concerning my comments about speakers, I simplified the argument for sake of argument. I am not going to deny the resistance has a real effect on the system response in predictable fashion because I know it does. I am one who believes it merely doesn't finish explaining the whole speaker wire's effect in one neat model for all that I hear going on. It seems to act more than just a resistor changing on the speaker terminals. No need to argue about it because that's all I have to say on that.
Kurt
> > I read the paper on speaker cables about 15 years ago.Correction on that, after checking back. I read that second article mentioned when it was published about 10 years ago (1991) and did not read the one from 1980.
Kurt
Kurt,
Re: Jon Risch, Malcolm Hawksford, and Allen Wright
Have any published articles in a peer reviewed journal on the subject?
Regards,
Bill
Bill -Have you written any peer reviewed articles?
Did Nicola Tesla get good reviews by his peers?
Or was Edison busy selling light bulbs and discrediting Tesla?Did that make him right?
Or was he just a rich kid that liked to play a lot?Did Jesus have peer reviews?
Or did the Pharases not say that he was a fool?Leave this guy alone. His point that a midrange speaker is not being used at resonance is valid.
RTC,Lets see, the current “Revenge” package includes:
[1] Publishing Issues [PI]
[2] Some Science History [SH]
[3] Religion/Scientology (RLH-Maybe) [RS]
[4] Inmate Molestation [IM]
[5] Acoustic Resonance [AR]Comments follow in corresponding order:
[PI]
Have you written any peer reviewed articles?Comment: I am not in the speaker cable business. So the prospect of that topic being addressed by me in an article is quite slim. I do want to read objective articles on the subject that are at least supported by some modeling and test data that demonstrate claim validity. In that case I may try to reproduce it, otherwise …
If my current lab work yields fruitful results, then I will certainly prepare and submit for review a manuscript covering any discoveries made, along with a patent application that addresses appropriate product implementations.
[SH]
Did Nicola Tesla get good reviews by his peers?
Or was Edison busy selling light bulbs and discrediting Tesla?
Did that make him right?
Or was he just a rich kid that liked to play a lot?Comment: As far as Edison and Tesla are concerned, their contributions are well known, and neither was reluctant to publish. I will note that Edison and his associates preferred the patent office.
[RS]
Did Jesus have peer reviews?
Or did the Pharases not say that he was a fool?Comment: I assume you mean Pharisees? Beyond this, do not comment on religious matters. In this forum, I draw sufficient flak from posts on matters acoustic.
[IM]
Leave this guy alone.Comment: Truth = Abuse! Since when?
[AR]
His point that a midrange speaker is not being used at resonance is valid.Comment: In a horn/driver system there is more than one resonance to control. Driver [Fs] was never at issue here.
Regards,
WHG
Bill, Bill -Comments follow, as you say, but without any particular order:
[AR]
His point that a midrange speaker is not being used at resonance is valid.Comment: In a horn/driver system there is more than one resonance to control. Driver [Fs] was never at issue here.
Reply:
The only thing that wire does is add series resistance, as you said yourself. One can certainly argue the point that dampening is unimportant above resonance(s) of the horn/driver system and this is the point that was made. Resonance is a non-specific term, and doesn't apply only to Fts. A quote of the post you argued is "they do not operate near ANY resonant."
[PI]
Have you written any peer reviewed articles?Comment: I am not in the speaker cable business. So the prospect of that topic being addressed by me in an article is quite slim. I do want to read objective articles on the subject that are at least supported by some modeling and test data that demonstrate claim validity. In that case I may try to reproduce it, otherwise …
If my current lab work yields fruitful results, then I will certainly prepare and submit for review a manuscript covering any discoveries made, along with a patent application that addresses appropriate product implementations.
Reply:
A patent on wire. A PATENT ON WIRE!!! Do you hear that?!! A patent on WIRE!!!!!
That's the funniest thing I think I've heard in a long time!
A patent on wire!
[SH]
Did Nicola Tesla get good reviews by his peers?
Or was Edison busy selling light bulbs and discrediting Tesla?
Did that make him right?
Or was he just a rich kid that liked to play a lot?Comment: As far as Edison and Tesla are concerned, their contributions are well known, and neither was reluctant to publish. I will note that Edison and his associates preferred the patent office.
Reply:
The PTO is neither a judge of truth nor a repository of truth. It is not a director of truth or a listener of truth. The PTO is simply a place to record intellectual property rights. It's a legal office, and nothing more.
Telsa invented everything that was later to become the wiring of the world. Edison did nothing more than to tinker around with gadgets and find ways to make money with them. As a capitalist, he was very successful. As an inventor, he was mediocre. Tesla made a system that was capable of powering a city, a state, a nation, the world. Edison's system could not - No way. Edison instead lied to everyone in America and the rest of the world. And he was PEER REVIEWED. That didn't mean anything, except that he could get fools to believe his nonsense.
Don't bother with quotes or trying to discredit a persons comments with that peer review buisness. If you have a valid line of reasoning, then say it. But if you just want to belittle someone, don't bother. Especially about something like this. I really don't want to listen to someone who has so little to offer that they would write a thesis about wire.
[RS]
Did Jesus have peer reviews?
Or did the Pharases not say that he was a fool?Comment: I assume you mean Pharisees? Beyond this, do not comment on religious matters. In this forum, I draw sufficient flak from posts on matters acoustic.
Reply:
One cannot misspell in English a word that is not English. It would be more correct to have written this word "farisei" but even this is not right. The wrong alphabet has been used. You can quote the dictionary all you want, but that is more of the same - quoting references. You have purposely chosen to fail to see the meaning in this dialog, and that also means you have failed to see the truth.
[IM]
Leave this guy alone.Comment: Truth = Abuse! Since when?
Reply:
How do you like it? We discuss a meaningless topic:
The deeper truth in speaker wires.
Is it pleasant for you? I sense that you are embarrassed. I think it would have been better left alone.
The sound of a ringing empty barrel may be heard as one flies over the nest of the cuckoo.WHG
If you want to read the material, read the Cable FAQ by Jon Risch right here, and even ask Jon for his credentials in the Cable Asylum. You can read about Malcolm's article in Allen Wright's "The Supercables Cookbook". Ask them about the papers they published in peer reviewed journals because I don't know what they all are. I know Malcolm is published several times in the AES and I think Jon Risch is also, but probably not about "cables." I doubt Allen Wright has.Not meaning to be snide, but let me make the point I really don't care to "convert you" in any way. If you don't want to experiment with the thin wires for horns, then just don't.
Kurt
Kurt -Bill's right that a small wire and a larger wire with a series resistor are one and the same thing. But other than that, I think you pretty much get the picture. I'm not sure why Bill quotes technical references for something as simple as wire.
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