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Been a while since posting on the asylum but after a long hiatus I thought I would write about my recent experience on some popular players that i have spent some time with this week...
I have been happy with my Sony xa5400 for over a year now but always felt there was room for improvement somewhere in the chain and in my system, the source is the low point in terms of price so I ventured out to a local hifi shop to see what was out there...
After some listening at the shop, I decided to take home the Ayre cx-5 e mp universal player as it sounded quite nice at the shop. After bringing it home however, comparing it with the sony, I was somewhat dissappointed that the improvement was not bigger. In fact, the Sony was better in some ways; the Ayre being a bit more refined, cleaner and able to handle dynamic peaks in a more sophisticated way (smoother without any sign of strain). But, and this is a big but, it was kind of boring...
The Ayre sounded dryer, flatter, lacking real dimension. It did everything right but it wasnt right; it just didnt sound real, even though it was cleaner, quieter and had more resolution than the Sony. So, I took it back and brought home the Mcintosh.
Now I have to tell you that the Sony is $1400, the Ayre is $6000 and the Mac is $10,000 so The improvement in sound between the players sonics should be obvious, but between the Sony and Ayre this wasnt really the case. It was however very much so with the Mcintosh...
When I plugged the Mac in I wasnt prepared for the kind of visceral power, the image density and the amount of resolution I was missing with the others. The Mcintosh player is not even on the same plane with the other two; it is like I opened floodgates of sound that were previously closed off or squelched by clogged pipes. So different is it that my mind is going crazy with trying to figure out how i could possibly come up with the funds to pay for this thing!
The Mcintosh is simply the finest sound that i have heard from digital, ever. I have heard mega-buck machines before this but was never blown away in this order of magnitude, simply fantastic...
I guess the moral is that sometimes you get what you pay for (mcd-1100) sometimes you dont (ayre cx-5 e mp) and sometimes you get a great deal (xa-5400)! In this case I'm going to do everying I can to get what I pay for...
Follow Ups:
Thanks! for sharing. In the grand scheme of things, (I hope) that a 10K player outperforms a 1.5K player.
Owned the Sony stock and Modwrighted. Demo'd the Mcintosh's and Ayre at length recently when shopping for a new front end to replace the XA5400 full Modwrighted player....lot's of choices indeed. I wound up trying the Denon A100 from Music Direct for 30 day trial while I was checking out the other players. Bottom line is that the Denon won my heart and was a freakin steal at $1500 (comparable players would cost at least $5K or more). Dynamic, extended with ZERO digital artifacts, warmth and oodles of inner detail. Most of all, instruments sound dead on accurate tonaly! Beguilingly so in fact....I sit in on Orchestral practices at the local high schools and college. It just don;t get much better if at all:O) Don't believe me?? Try one if they have any left.
dave_b
Salient question for you, as I have tried unsuccessfully to get the answer from your other posts on the Sony XA5400 in modded form: What was it about the XA5400 Modwrighted player that led you to sell it? Also, did you have a chance to compare it side by side to any of the other players you have had? Thanks for your input on these players.
Glad to hear you found the right player in the end. I am at the point where I am trying to convince myself the XA5400 I bought is worth keeping enough to send to VSE or Modwright.
I have the original VSE modified 5400, and love it. It has superb sonics. The modifications are guaranteed for 5 years, and Bill at Music Tech is the authorized agent for VSE. I recently asked him if he would do repairs on the 5400 not related to the modifications if they ever came up and he said, no problem.
MUSIC TECHNOLOGY, INC.
5418 Port Royal Road
Springfield, VA 22151
703-764-7005 x106
703-764-0079 (FAX)
703-501-9419 (CELL)
bill@musictechnology.com
HOURS: Noon-6PM Mon-Fri
Thanks for your input. Great news to hear for this player all around. I would hesitate to send my XA5400, unmodded, to Sony if ever a problem, warranty or not. I emailed Bill last week, but no reply yet.
I would hesitate to send my XA5400, unmodded, to Sony if ever a problem, warranty or not. I emailed Bill last week, but no reply yet.
I'd think Bill or Warren (west coast) would be most receptive to troubleshooting 5400's that they installed VSE upgrades into. Some modders do general repairs not associated with units upgraded by them, but I would be surprised if Bill, Warren or Mr.Modwright in Washington worked on repairing units they did not modify.
I did not ask, and Bill did not specify whether he would repair units that weren't VSE mods.
I did not ask, and Bill did not specify whether he would repair units that weren't VSE mods.
Hello Mali. I've read your posts for years and have enjoyed them, but my reply was regarding robss's post.
To be honest, if the transport wouldn't have started misreading discs and if one of the capacitors didn't give out I may have stuck with it:O) The cheap transport was my main long term concern overall. I happened to have gotten very close to what I payed for the whole rig from some wealthy, multisystem gentleman that wanted to have one immediately:O) Plus I got my stock unit for only $1K !
As for comparison, I have only to rely on sonic memory. If you are comfortable with assuming the potential risk of repairs, some of which will be covered by Modwright for example, for their work, then go for it. The Denon A100 for me, combined with my Yaquin tube buffer get's me close enough with 5 years warranty and a far superior build quality.
dave_b
Gentleman buyer bought with a bad capacitor and disc reading issues, or you incurred some cost to repair before selling to gentleman?
What's the longest you've held on to a audio component?
Modwright repaired both issues for me luckily...I had the Sony over 2 years. I owned my Dunlavy/Levinson system for 4 years back in the mid "90's, then I got on the continual upgrade/change path just for kicks when the tech money was flowing:O) Recently I've been playing around with more modest gear so I can still send my kids to college. I do love exploring new gear and technology! It's my hobby and my passion, what can I say? It's fun to actually hear alot of the stuff that get's reviewd or doesn't in some cases....opens your ears up a bit to what's going on in the High end and the near High end. So short answer is an average of 2 years with the shortest ever being just over 4 days (that component really pissed me off).
dave_b
Good to read you put your kids education first and that you had your 5400 repaired before selling. Sorry to sound so suspicious, but some stuff I read on audio forums makes me cringe.
Everything I have ever sold, and Lord knows it was alot, has been 9/10 or higher rating in perfect working order. I sold my last Mega system 2 years ago to a lawyer in New Zealand...with the exchange rate so bad for him, he payed me almost what i payed for it MSRP. It's kinda fun sometimes doin deals around the world:O) My sitting room getaway is a pleasure however, so I'm doin fine!
dave_b
Denon, Marantz and McIntosh are all owned by the same parent company - D&M Holdings. I know they are all separate companies, but you have to wonder if there's any sharing of technology & design. If nothing else, I would imagine that their future plans for Digital/CD/SACD are somewhat coordinated together.Gerry
Edits: 02/25/12
Yup! I just am completely smitten with the A100...it leaves me wanting for not:O)
dave_b
Isn't the tube output stage buffer you are using making a big difference? i.e., I'm wondering how good the Denon would sound to those of us without that buffer. With my naturally skeptical (and sometimes, cynical) nature (sadly), I also can't help but wonder how this player is being sold so cheaply - e.g., I can't help but wonder if it'll be replaced by a much better and cheaper player.
You got me there...I wouldn't want to do without my Yaquin buffer:O) Basically what it does is similiar to what the Modwright upgrade did for my Sony...it adds that tube magic but without any corruptive tube signature i.e. rolloff or veiling etc. All things considered however, it still competes with the big boys in all aspects. I researched it's build and parts content as well as performance parameters compared to the competition and it stacks up closer with $5k plus players like the Esoteric stuff. It simply got lost in the shuffle due to it's 2channel only format and CD/SACD only playback...I think coming from Denon the average droog expects multichannel and playback of everything short of cassette tapes! The 30 day trial is THEE reason I even took a chance, but man o man I'm glad I did.
dave_b
Many of these machines are quite elderly (as far as the average digital audio product shelf-time). I can't help but think that we may be at the start of a new cycle of product introductions. In which case, it may be prudent to wait and see what comes along.
I think the disappearance of the Marantz machine mentioned earlier (and the Sony for that matter) may be an indication that new products are imminent. I can't help but think that someone (other than OPPO) will try to capture the sub-$10,000 (SACD) market, in the near future.
I have yet to hear a digital player that sounds like analog but I do think that as digital players go...they are improving...some really cheap (current) players sound more pleasing than some models (with hefty price tags) that came out as recently as six years ago.
Interesting post--thanks for sharing your experiences. I think my situation is very much similar to yours: my signal source, a Marantz SA-14 V2, is certainly competent enough, but at this point I think it's the limiting factor in my system. The Ayre is definitely on the list of candidates, but I haven't had the chance to give it a serious audition yet. My interest lies mainly in the Esoteric X-05 and the Marantz SA-7 (although the Marantz is apparently no longer available--see my earlier post below). I hadn't considered the MacIntosh SACD players until I read your post, but I definitely will consider them now. And had you thought about any of the Esoteric units? I see no mention of Esoteric in your OP or in any of the responses. Just curious.
Thanks again for taking the time to express your opinion.
Unfortunately there is no Esoteric dealer in my area because I was contemplating ordering the SA50 (digital input bonus) or the X-05 based simply on reviews, which I have never done before. I always like to hear something on my system before I buy and of course, it is important to support your local shops.
Esoteric is definitely famous for their transports but maybe somewhat infamous for their clinical sound. It seems that most people I have talked to who have experience with Esoteric seem to agree that the sound tends to be a little unnatural and fatiguing. The reviews of the X-05 have stated the opposite and that it is in fact very analog sounding, go figure... The thing that scares me about Esoteric is the large number of them that are always available on Audiogon; maybe a sign of user satisfaction or lack there of? Just thoughts, not a indictment on Esoteric, really just trying to give you a bit of what my thought process was in search for a new source.
If I were you I would visit every shop in your area and listen to everything you can, even if it is out of your price comfort zone, its good to hear something great and have an idea of what is possible in your system.
Years ago I heard an Audio Note Dac 4.1x sig with the Audio Note Transport 2 mk II in a system very similar to mine. It let me know how good digital could be and the sound of that system stuck with me. The sticker on that dac/transport is well above 20k and I believe now with the Mcintosh, I can better that sound for less than half that price. just have to sell some stuff now...
A good policy, to be sure. And yet how difficult it can be now to schedule an in-home audition! And even hearing something in one's own system short-term (say, over a long weekend) may not reveal the potential for long-term dissatisfaction. But it's better than nothing.
I share your hesitancy about Esoteric. The only reason I would consider the X-05 is, as you've suggested, that it plays against type. Recently I talked to an audio enthusiast and music collector who bought an X-05. He's something of a vinyl snob, but he said that the X-05 was as close to his vinyl rig as he's ever heard. Quite the endorsement! Too bad you don't have a local dealer.
I own the the Sony 5400 and the Ayre C5xeMP. With both playing stereo through balanced outputs to ARC electronics and Vandersteen 5 speakers, I hear a major difference. I only listen to classical music. The Sony is a good player, probably worth the $800 I paid for it new. (Incidentally, it sounds the same after 400 hours as it did right out of the box, when I use a reference to comapre it to.) The Ayre is vastly better. The main difference is the texture and richness of the the sound of the instruments. With the Sony everything sounds smoothed over, while the sound of bow on strings and even the richness of flute is striking on the Ayre, both on RBCD and SACD. Also, the bass has no detail on the Sony- it just booms. I concluded the Sony is a good player, while the Ayre is a great one. I really wanted to like the Sony as much or almost as much, because I could have saved a lot of money. I'm going to sell the Sony, since I don't like listening to it even in MCH. The Ayre has a deeper and wider soundstage in stereo than the Sony in MCH. There's nothing wrong with it, it just sounds like one of the better pieces of Sony equipment I have heard with what that entails. Sins of omission rather than comission. Oh well, I had hopes.One measure of the size of the difference was recently demonstrated by my son. He walked in when I was listening to an SACD and said "I hear you are using that Sony again. Why?" He could not see which was playing, but it only took a few seconds of listening to know which was playing. On previous systems I have owned the difference might not have been so obvious, but after my latest upgrade, I can hear subtleties I could never hear before.
Each to his or her own. Different people have different tastes.
Joe
Edits: 02/17/12
JSM says "the bass has no detail on the Sony- it just booms"
Ok I am not talking about the std Sony but the VSE version which has stunning bass, powerful, deep and extremely detailed.
I have a friend that do own the Ayre and for the rest his system is virtually identical to mine, I like the Ayre in some aspects but the VSE Sony to my ears has a better, bigger, deeper sound stage and more air.
The Ayre strength is that is sound a little more refined, and polite.
Edits: 02/18/12
Joe,
Very interesting difference of opinion! This shows that it must be totally system dependent because when you say the Sony smoothed things over, I thought that the Ayre was quite a bit smoother (in a good way) and the Sony was a bit grainy in comparison..
We both agree that the Ayre is indeed superior to the Sony, just in different degrees, though I thought the Sony to be by far the better deal $$$.
The fact is, in my system the two were very different but for me clearly in a similar league; the Mac however continues to amaze me. It is SO much better than anything Ive had in my system!
When I said that the Sony tended to smooth things over, I didn't mean that the Ayre was harsher. With the Sony it is as if fine details in the waveform have been smoothed over, the sound is a bit lacking in detail and texture. My old Oppo was even worse in this regard. The bass difference shows itself in tha instruments that are playing only in realtively deep bass, say like a double bass. The Ayre reveals what kind of instrument is being used, while the Sony just produces bass sounds.
Not many years ago I would have been quite happy with the Sony, and I think it is a bargain at the $800 I paid for it. But after my recent upgrade of my TT to a Basis 2200 my standards have gone up a lot. I knew vinyl could sound good, but I was stunned how good it can sound on my new table. I have yet to hear an SACD on the Ayre that sounds better then top-quality vinyl.
I have little doubt that mods can improve the sound of a unit. I own a Marantz 8260 that I modded myself. I eliminated the output muting circuitry, I put in high-quality output caps, and I installed a new high-quality clock. The improvement was easy to hear, but even after that impropvement the Sony is still better than the Marantz. But I'm not about to have a mod done on the Sony without being able to hear for myself in advance whether it will outperform the Ayre, though there things in the ergonomics of the Sony that I like much better than the Ayre (e.g., the display).
Joe
is about $2500. How much was the Ayre? just curious.
I don't really know how to answer that meaningfully. I traded in an Ayre CX-7e that was a few years old, and the C5-xeMP had about 100 hours on it, as it was a demonstrator.
I wouldn't pay $2500 for any unit that I couldn't listen to in advance or get a full refund if I didn't like it. I have learned the hard way that I should never trust anyone's opinon of how good something sounds. Ignoring my own rule, I made a mistake in buying the Sony 5400 for $800 new based on all the hype and the relatively low price rather than hearing it in advance. I thought that even if it wasn't as near as good as the C5, it would give me access to MCH; my Ayre doesn't. However, I found stereo on the Ayre provides a wider and deeper soundstage and better ambiance than the Sony on MCH. Still, I think the 5400 is a very good value for $800. I wish the display on the Ayre was as good, but there's more to a unit than its display.
Joe
"..there's more to a unit than its display."
Yes and my Sony player display is usually turned off. I do wish however that the Squeezebox Touch display allowed an increase of maximum font size by a third to half. Not waiting around for a software update that'll never come though (c:
Contact this outfit, ask for Bill. He can take your Sony to a entirely new level of refinement.
My suggestion is that you do a search for Modwright modifications to the Sony. Many people are raving about them.
Find yourself a nice MCD500 for sale and you'll get performance very near that of the MCD1100.
I just sold my MCD500 because I'm no longer interested in SACD...but it played beautiful music regardless of format. Now I will tell you that I personally found the Luxman D-06 and much dearer D-08 improvements over my MCD500, but we're not talking in major terms here.
Numerous times when folks were at my home and I would play the MCD500 for them, they were surprised that it wasn't as laid back as other Mac gear. I think the MCD500 and MCD1100 are excellent pairings for other Mac gear in that they provide the excitement that otherwise wouldn't exist in an all Mac system.
If you can get an MCD500 for an audition I think you'll be very surprised...then you'll have a short term AND a long term plan.
Rick.
Is to upgrade the Sony to the VSE mod + clock then your total cost will be +__ 3000$
nt.
I've heard the Mac down in Denver and was impressed, but not $10.000 worth by a long shot when compared to my VSE Sony.
Edits: 02/17/12
/
But, regardless, I know what $10,000 means to my bank account.
/
I forgot to mention that the Mcintosh also has a dedicated headphone amp (yet to test it) and five digital inputs! I am in the process of downloading some high resolution tracks to try on the Mac; so far itunes through the spdif sounds superb.
I'm dehydrated from drooling...
????????????????????????????????????
My amp and pre are Mac, I wouldn't have anything else!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Real comparisons like these, between multiple models in the same system, even at different pricepoints - is what really grabs my attention. Thanks for this. So it seems that Sony is indeed quite a little performer. It's interesting that you found McIntosh model so engaging, usually people complain about McIntosh being so "syrupy" and "boring". I wonder if their 500 SACD player can give you almost the same results at half the price. I'm missing the boat because I want multi/channel, but it's getting tiresome on letting all these great 2ch players go by.
Have you tried Oppo 95 in you system? What about Marantz 7S1?
Actually, I did listen to the mcd-500 in the shop and compared it with the Ayre and honestly preferred the Ayre. My preference for the Ayre was probably system dependent which is strange that I preferred the Ayre because the system used a Mcintosh integrated amp!
Anyway, the MCD-500 sounded nice enough but less transparent than the Ayre, maybe a little silkier and sweeter but a little noisy or muddled contrast to the clean sound of the Ayre; so I took the Ayre home with me.
I have not heard the Marantz 7s1; no dealers close, but I have heard the sa 11 s2 and did not think it sounded like real music. Like the Ayre, it sounded good but not convincingly real. (did not hear it in my system so can't really objectively judge the performance completely)
A friend of mine has the oppo bd83 se which uses the same dacs as the mac but at the time I heard it, it was blown away by my Audio Note 2.1x in every way. Have not heard the Oppo 95...
As an aside; I just tried the preamp variable output from the Mac straight to my monoblocks and it is simply a joke compared to my Audio Note Preamp. I thought maybe I could sell my pre.. LOL! nope...
Hmm, I'm surprised there is a such a big difference in sound between MCD-500 and MCD-1000. Usually core characteristics stay the same in the family, with slight changes between models. It does sound like all of it is system dependent, maybe MCD 500 would've sounded different in your system as well?
I'm a little confused about your description of the Ayre sound though. I know it's hard to put sound in words. But for me there is a sterile sound, neutral and warm. I always thought that McIntosh and Marantz tended to be on the warm side. Where basically you have a very thick mid range, good base and detailed highs, but ones that never become edgy - even if they are on the recording. So how Ayre is different from McIntosh MCD-1000 and Marantz in that regard?
I wouldn't say that the Ayre is sterile, maybe a little lean in the mids and clean in the highs but very clear in the bass; the overall color being neutral. My problem with it was its presentation; flat in dimensionality; images didn't come through with a believable presence, everything was on a flat plane so to speak with a sort of sheen that while pleasant kept any sound from emerging from the background and into my listening room. The excitement factor just isn't there...
The Mac is also pretty neutral in color, the difference being that the mids are so present, so dimensional and palpable along with the the level of resolution being on a whole different planet than the Ayre. I could hear details that were not even hinted at with the Ayre; its that much better! The only negative is that the bass had so much more energy that I have since moved my speakers further from the back wall to compensate.
There is a lot of edge to the sound when it is on the disc; string articulations pop out at you more with this player than I have ever heard. Part of what makes the sound so exciting with the Mac is this aspect; so much energy in articulations but with enough body in the tone to make it sound realistic!
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