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In Reply to: RE: Be careful... posted by Charles Hansen on January 08, 2008 at 12:06:10
...is used on the Teac Esoteric DV-60, Charles. I noticed that it was *not* the VRDS/VRDS NEO in my recent review of the DV-60 (link below). Having spent time with the X-01 and the UX-1 in 2006, I was familiar with those drives.
Teac calls this particular drive in the DV-60 the "VOSP" (for "Vertically aligned Optical Stability Platform"). The unit that I reviewed had a plastic tray, with metal internals. Oddly enough, it doesn't look quite like any of the images that you supplied (Teac's site supplied the DV-60 drive image...top view, internal...that I used in my article).
The race to the bottom seems to be on with these transports...and given OEM prices of $4K for the VRDS, one can understand why.
david
Follow Ups:
The "VOSP" is somehow supposed to keep the laser more perpendicular to the plane of the disc than a normal laser assembly. I've never seen any information about how it works or why it is different, so I can't really say how significant this is.
I would guess that the mechanism in the DV-60 is the same as the third one down in my post, but with a plastic tray instead of a metal tray. (They offered this transport as an OEM piece for $600 with a plastic tray and $800 with a metal tray.) If you'll notice, the "bridge" assembly that holds the clamping puck was removed in the photo I posted. I would assume that it is the same "bridge" assembly that is included in the photo in your review.
...since I was told that the disc clamping system on the DV-60 had a metal puck.
The transport has worked very well while here...clean and positive action, and very quiet in operation...and the remote is terrific. An OEM price of $600 for high-end use isn't too bad...its action was clean and positive...though I don't doubt that a metal tray would probably have more appeal for 'philes. An additional $200 at the OEM level is pretty spendy by the time it gets to MSRP, however.
I know that EMM Labs isn't using Teac Esoteric engine in my CDSD SE or in the CDSA SE. Personally, I prefer the drive in the DV-60 to the CDSD SE...a metal tray would be more attractive ergonomically, though. (I still miss my CD-12. Wish that Linn would do an SACD-12.)
The drive in the Marantz SA-7S1 is also very nice: quick on the TOC read-up, clean action, and nice ergonomics on the remote. Don't know the price on that one.
All the best,
david
< < I know that EMM Labs isn't using Teac Esoteric engine in my CDSD SE or in the CDSA SE. > >
I just saw which transport they use somewhere on the internet in the last week or two. I was kind of surprised, because it wasn't the Philips or a Sony (which is what I was expecting). I can't remember what it was but it seemed like something fairly low cost, like maybe an Oppo or something. I'll see if I can find the article again. Or you could just ask Ed -- he's a straight-shooter (and a very sharp designer!).
...so I could check with him, all right.
I do know that the current price/performance/reliability structure for SACD playback is a frustration to him, and to more than just a few who've considered producing SACD or universal players over the years.
"Want our *really* good pricing? Easy! Just sign this contract for 50,000 units...!"
;-)
david
< < An OEM price of $600 for high-end use isn't too bad > >
Well that depends on your point of view. The Pioneer manufacturing kit we use is significantly less expensive than that. (Another hidden factor is that the Pioneer includes all licenses and royalties, while the Teac kit provides about half of the licenses and none of the royalties.) The only potential advantage to the Esoteric as used in the DV-60 is the "VOSP" laser. Since I have no information about what it really is, how it works, and how it might affect the sound, I have very little incentive to investigate it. If we were to build a product with that transport, it would have to be *significantly* more expensive than the C-5xe. I would not want to do that unless the performance were also improved significantly, and it's not at all clear that would be case.
Furthermore, I think that the $6000 price of the C-5xe represents an upper limit where the consumer is willing to accept a plastic tray. If we were to make a more expensive model, it would need to have a metal tray (or be a top-loader) to be accepted in the market. This would drive the price up even more. And then if we were to make a player at (say) $10,000+, the customer would probably also expect a fancier chassis, which would drive the price up even more.
I think you get the picture. There are a lot of design decisions that have to be made. I think we did very well balancing all of the factors with the C-5xe. It is a great sounding product that has been well received by both the press and the consumer, plus it has proven to be quite reliable. And finally, Pioneer offers superb support to us with spare parts and service information, which allows us to do the same for our customers. (Which is why I would *never* use a Philips transport.)
...but somehow you slipped that reference in.;-)
As to manufacturing costs: it does indeed depend on your point of view, your economies of scale, and your target market. Teac's DV-60 apparently uses the $600 drive that you described, but with relatively (I would guess) large scale production, prices it at an MSRP of USD $5,600. That's in the price range of your C-5xe, though the size of the production runs at Ayre will be different, I'd venture to say.
Since you've mentioned the C-5xe: you and I talked about *PFO* reviewing it a couple of years ago. Email me if you'd like to pursue this further...we have quite a few universal players here right now, including the DV-60.
All the best,
david
< < Teac's DV-60 apparently uses the $600 drive that you described, [and] prices it at an MSRP of USD $5,600. > >
Sort of. They are willing to *sell* the drive (including the MPEG decoder PCB and front panel display) in very small quantities for $600. I would assume that it costs them somewhere around $200 or $250 to manufacture these parts. And if you look at the pictures in your on-line review, you can see that they put their money in different places than we do.
The Ayre has fully discrete audio circuitry, high quality polystyrene capacitors, expensive low-loss PCB material, audio-grade resistors, etc. The Teac has full video capability, including HDMI, component, S-video, and composite outputs, includes a word clock input, and has complete multi-channel audio capabilities.
The final retail cost for both products is similar. Both products represent good value, it's just that they are aimed at different customers with different desires.
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