|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
69.105.113.27
In Reply to: I don't understand the debate-SACD sounds way better than CD to me posted by Wegman on December 2, 2006 at 07:39:16:
I still believe this is the case. The best recorded SA-CD beats the best recorded RB-CD. In the beginning I assume we were all somewhat in awe of the new medium. Fairly simple and cheap SACD players easily showed off the format's capabilities. SA-CD also sparked a sudden increase in quality of regular CD-player's.But then the SA-CD novelty-factor wore off. The medium matured further. Faults and disappointments became apparent. And I have no doubt that many of us witnessed a socalled 'the emperor has no clothes' effect. Some SA-CD are truly not Super-anything. OTOH, well recorded SA-CD's have opened our eyes to what can be possible. The industry and audiophiles alike actually have a lot to thank SA-CD for.
The inherent qualities of SA-CD have pointed me towards an appreciation for vinyl. I would say that vinyl is a truly hi-rez format and it takes a LOT to better it. I am not yet experienced enough to definitively state that vinyl is better than SA-CD, but I am leaning towards this conclusion. I think I can support the conclusion that it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to achieve true reference quality audio playback with vinyl than with digital. For a few thousand dollars a reference quality vinyl system can be built. It takes multple tens of thousands of dollars to achieve the same with digital.
Follow Ups:
I agree.Ok, the best vinyl may beat the best SACD. But who wants the inconvenience of vinyl?
Joel wrote: I think I can support the conclusion that it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to achieve true reference quality audio playback with vinyl than with digital. For a few thousand dollars a reference quality vinyl system can be built. It takes multple tens of thousands of dollars to achieve the same with digital.I don't quite agree with this, Joel. Granted, I have not upgraded my vinyl playback system in a while, but there was a time when all of its parts were considered SOTA. Given that some of my local audiophile friends are still very deep into analog (with systems costing tens of thousands, not just thousands as you suggest), it's almost humorous to hear an SACD player that cost the owner less than a fourth of what he has in his vinyl rig proffer up some really good sounds. The player has been modified to the hilt, that's true, but his total investment still comes in well under $2500. His top of the line vinyl rig -- complete with $3K cartridge, no less -- does sound a bit better than mine, but it still gets the job done compared to things like stock SCD-1's or 777's.
Having come to the conclusion that SACD has lots of promise but little on the delivery of that promise, I've succumbed to the lure of the highly modified CD camp, and couldn;t be happier. Right now I'm running a machine that was custom built for me. The innards are stuck in an old Music Hall CD player, and it uses its original drive, but the machine is otherwise one of only three like it in the USA. I dare say that with the level of performance this is offering me, I'm in no hurry to spend tens of thousands on vinyl playback upgrades (especially in view of the fact that this machine set me back less than $2K).
I am in full agreement with your thoughts on vinyl, the only question that I have is how do you cope with the vinyl surface noise? on very large high resolution system the surface noise is simply too much for me to cope with, it starts to interfere with music and it can only increse with repeated playing.
I have a second smaller stereo with tiny two way bookshelf B&W speakers just for playing vinyl, on my main system vinyl sounds awful.
I am continuously surprised how quiet vinyl can be. There is no denying that you have to deal with some surface noise on (parts of) some discs, but if it occurs I find I can listen through it as it were. I have many discs that are really quiet. I am also pleasantly surprised by how long these records stay quiet despite continuous play. The effects of damage done by playing is greatly exagerated imo.My policy is to buy only NM/M/SS vinyl, with the occasional VG+ thrown in if I trust the online seller or can view it myself. And of course I clean with an RCM.
I can understand though that if you are into classical your preferred medium might very well be SA-CD. Listening to classical music with its large dynamics is definitely enhanced by the digital silence, especially when played loud. I listen mostly to jazz.
With a hi-end TT surface noise can be vanishingly low. Even more remarkable, great vinyl subjectively surpasses digital (at least RBCD) in revealing inner detail that is above the electronic noise floor (as distinguished from surface noise.) I would suspect that this "true" noise floor is at or below what is perceived as the inherent surface noise of an LP.
"The best recorded SA-CD beats the best recorded RB-CD."True enough when both formats are played on the same CDP. But the RBCD performance of one deck can easily surpass the SACD performance of another. I knew the SACD format was a dead letter when in 2002 I threw a couple of mods into my SCD-1 that brought the player's modded RBCD performance to a higher level than the stock player's SACD. Yes, SACD on the modded player sounded better yet. But with more mods the hopscotch continued to a level that the all of the criticisms about RBCD that led to the introduction of the SACD format were moot. I think my experience with this unit pretty much parallels general trends in hi-end CDPs.
2. "...it is cheaper, relatively speaking, to achieve true reference quality audio playback with vinyl than with digital."
True short of absolute SOTA reference as defined in the brave new world of $80K TTs that cost twice the price of SOTA $40K DACs. However, not to worry as presumably most of the buyers of such reference equipment are hedge fund managers with deaf ears.
That's what I was alluding to in my original response to wegman. Modifications have shown us that it was the digital play back systems that were at fault and not so much the medium. In turn this sparked a response by the industry to create better machines. Despite that, the real audiophile excitement can be found in that cottage industry of modifyiers rather than in stock players.Still I find it much easier to 'beat' CD with vinyl than well recorded SA-CD. My machine is no slouch (APL Denon).
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: