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Most seem to sound the same: "This is the best." "I could not believe my ears!"Same old, same old!
(I'm seriously thinking of purchasing the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, but my money is scarce and I would like a reasonable assurance that it will make a noticeable improvement in my audio setup. I emailed Schiit with my setup, but they refused to comment. But they do have a 15-day money back guarantee, less a 5% restocking fee.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Humility is the true mark of genius. Just get used to it."
-Anonymous
Edits: 11/23/16Follow Ups:
This is how it was done:
-You are familiar with my reference system.
-I'm substituting the component under review for the one I use regularly.
-Now I will play a recording of acoustic music that I have described many times and that is available for you to purchase.
-I will now describe what I heard, and how it differs from the reference.
-The component brings me closer to (or further from) live acoustic sound as I recall it in this or that respect; I go to live acoustic performances frequently.
-Additional discussion.
Compare that with the drivel passing for reviews and published virtually everywhere these days: I played this or that new CD on it and it sounded great!
I take it you are going to be playing hi res right? There would be no other reason to buy this dac. Otherwise you could just go with the upgraded bifrost or gungir.
I've had an Yggy for about a month, so I been listening serious. It has incredible separation. So much so that it sounds quite different from any other source I've ever had. It's so low distortion it sounds different, but you realize it's the lack of distortion you are hearing, or not hearing. I also think it has a small increase in the quality of timbre against my Sony HAP-Z1.
Rolling equipment is the audiophile's bane.
Audio mags? They get paid to do a job just like anybody else. I refer you to the recent review of YG Acoustic speakers in the recent Stereophile that came out during the MQA set to. I decided not start a thread and flame that speaker company until everybody in the world knew exactly what I think about that company, it's owner, and it's speakers. I would have gone a little easier on the reviewer, but damn dude, you go into a speaker factory and they start hiding the crossovers? Then they tell you, "They're so good they're a secret!" Really? Then I got to see them! No he didn't do that. To put it bluntly they did this review like these $150,000 speakers are for real, and worth considering at that price. I would disagree.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
... not the Yiggy but I can attest to the same qualities; the Gungnir uses the identical digital processing as the former. Transparency and 'air' far beyond other DACs I've owned other than the Bifrost MB which is very close.
The Schiit Multibit designs are great with any PCM but are especially effective with 16/44.1 input.
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich ...
The answer is blurred by any or no preference what is reviewed. Do advertisers get priority? Are reviewers under the same pressure to pump out reviews? Has the reviewer have a ax to grind with a manufacture? And, the list goes on and on.
"I'm seriously thinking of purchasing the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, but my money is scarce and I would like a reasonable assurance that it will make a noticeable improvement in my audio setup."
I'm not for certain your request is even possible. I had almost forgotten seasoned consumers have trust issues. Is your quest for the DAC connected to a specific review?
I agree with Scruffy ....it's almost to the point that these reviewers are pointless. The only way to determine how a component sounds is to plug it into your own system. It has been MY experience that some of the most highly blessed components disappoint.
Yes audio reviews are biased and when not biased, just inaccurate because the reviewer can't know if it will perform the same way in your system.
That said, when you get consistent "it was good" reviews or everyone says "great value" then you are more likely to discover you like it.
For example... in the before times, I read many reviews of home theater speakers... at the time, a new upstart called Definitive Technologies was making powered towers that every single reviewer just loved. I found out, after being able to audition them in my house, that they were indeed what I wanted.
However, in a more recent experience, Andrew Jones designed some cheap speakers for Pioneer that were universally lauded as the best things since sliced bread and then some. In my system, they were disappointing and really didn't live up to the hype.
SO... if all you're risking is 5% of the price, my advice is go for it. Schitt products have gotten a lot of great reviews from almost everyone that uses them. You have a 50/50 shot that you will like it.
I grew weary of their flowery prose decades ago.
Glossy rags are nothing more than a marketing division for the audio industry.
Let your own ears be the judge.
Yo Scrufy, If you state the particular problem you are having with voices maybe there would be suggestions of how you might deal with it other than purchasing an expensive dac. Too recessed, not enough soul, excessive sibilance??? T456
" And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall" Robert Allen Zimmerman
I'd like to respond to this as a reviewer and a human being. We are all biased in some way shape or form. As a senior reviewer I have a long track record and you can judge my biases from all of my reviews starting in TAS, then Listener Mag, then Stereophile, then TAS again and now in today's medium, video, through the leading multi-media company AVShowrooms.A review is only as good as the person reviewing it, knowing their biases and track records and equipment loaned or owned is very very important. The new gen reviewers are not here yet. They need at least 20 more years experience to properly guide you, in my opinion, for major purchases.
I will say that DACs, of all components, make the very least contribution to the overall sound of a system. Power cords, (again, this is my opinion) make far greater system differences than DACs.
I would ask you to consult several dealers about your system and your purchase expectations before buying a new DAC. Room treatment or a new power cord may be a far wiser purchase.
Edits: 11/25/16
"I will say that DACs, of all components, make the very least contribution to the overall sound of a system. Power cords, (again, this is my opinion) make far greater system differences than DACs."
My recent experience is exactly the opposite. Since my active crossover fritzed I've been using a single, humble Bottlehead Stereomour. Even my home modified LaScalas are humble, but when I hooked up the Yggy all it's good points were immediately obvious. My amp and speakers had no problem translating the greater separation, low distortion, timbral quality that the Yggy had to give. This experience leads me to believe that it is our sources that are the limiting factor in our systems. Our amps and speakers can keep up. YMMV.
And I'm going to try a nice power cord just cause you said so! I'll get back with you as to whether it makes more difference than the dac.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
That dacs can and do make a large difference should be obvious to anyone in this hobby who has rolled a few. I have a bit of an issue with the concept of what makes a bigger difference. It's a difference that one likes or finds important that counts, IMO not that I have anything in general against big positive differences. Everything is a limiting factor. Of course the source is super important but if your speaker sucks so will your sound, regardless of source. Some will find what others think a subtle difference will make there sound much more listenable, say if a particular thing is bugging them and they fixed it. T456
" And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall" Robert Allen Zimmerman
"I will say that DACs, of all components, make the very least contribution to the overall sound of a system" IMHO the notion of what makes the most difference or contribution to overall sound is an essentially vacuous subject as long as a system isn't completely out of wack. If one is a critical listener and finds a particular thing annoying, something like a resistor or capacitor change in, let's say, a dac might be the ticket to satisfaction. In my admitted limited experience with different dacs there is a large difference between them. The OP's concern seemed to be something wrong with voices. He was happy with other aspects of his sound. If he told us what he didn't like about the voices there may be a particular cap, resistor, ac plug... that may address his issue. Tweaker456
" And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall" Robert Allen Zimmerman
> I'm seriously thinking of purchasing the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC...
Herb Reichert reviews the Yggdrasil in the February 2017 issue of Stereophile.
To respond to your question,as reviews are based on subjective opinion,
they will be colored by each reviewers tastes and biases in sound
reproduction. At Stereophile we do our best to make those different tastes
apparent to our readers so each readers can see how closely they align with
their own tastes and preferences.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
If there are more adjectives and adverbs in the review --- than nouns and verbs --- be suspicious.
8^)
All subjective reviews are biased by their nature. That doesn't mean that they are not worthwhile, it simply means that the observations and conclusions may not be reproducible. A loudspeaker described as "warm and inviting" by one reviewer's criteria may be 'bloated and dull" to another. Over a period of time it may be possible to develop an understanding of an individual reviewer's biases, but in most instances this is difficult to attain. Objective reviews (ala John Atkinson) are very useful when conducted with sufficient rigor. because the results may be independently verified.
All subjective opinions on any aesthetic value are biased. It's human nature.
...on whether you agree with the reviewer.
+1!
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Well it sounded funny when I thought it up
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
But push/pull is more linear than SET. You set me up.
Nt
Biasing not sound quality. My old four 6V6 single ended mono Magnavox or my single ended Radio Craftsmen sounds nicest of what I own.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 11/25/16
In fact any review that isn't purely technical is biased. Why because subjective opinions are just that, subjective. And there is no accounting for the variables that impact human opinion.
Over time, one does learn the bias style of long term reviewers. Note that in the case of SP (just using them as an example), they tend to assign components to reviewers who are sympathetic to the type of component. AD rarely reviews high power SS, while KR rarely reviews low power tubes.
The media can be helpful in creating a short list for consideration, but ultimately it comes down to your ears...how does something sound to you ? Do you know your biases ?
Over the years ya get to know posters' biases/preferences, including music preferences. I pay attention to views posted by inmates whose preferences are similar to mine. Praise for gear/music from inmates whose taste/preference I know to be very different from mine is either ignored or used to disqualify what they're praising :-)
My first reviewing position was for a long defunct music magazine whose first issue contained capsule reviews of live musical events without any identification of the writer of each individual review.
My response was a letter to the editor conveying thoughts similar to yours and urging him to identify the writers so that the readers could learn, over time, the perspective (bias) of each writer. His response was to add the attributions and offer me a job.
That was a smart editor.
Yes, they all have preferences, Fremer is a vinyl guy, Dudley likes vintage, and Kal prefers surround sound.
The only way to make decisions written by reviewers, is if you have read them for a long time. Then you learn to read between the lines. The reviews on line are the same way, with some exceptions. Those guys you have to see how long they have been writing, and read past reviews of equipment you have heard.
A good sign is when a reviewer buys the piece he has reviewed. Also look for reviews that compare equipment that you have heard, that can tell you if they hear like you do.
You have posted this topic of should you buy a new dac. I don't think you will be content until you try one. You can return it, so even with the restocking fee, just do it.
If it is vocals, I still think a tube preamp that you can try different tubes to find the sound you want, might be your best move, but I would pay attention to the people who posted that know your speakers and/or amp.
I would hope the reviews claiming it to be the best, are saying in it's price range. We all know there is no one best of any component sound wise. It is all about synergy and personal preferences.
Yes, even if the reviewer has excellent ears there are many factors in reproduced sound. And every one and that includes reviewers, of course, balances these multiple factors differently in deciding how good a component is. A good review should give the reader an idea of how the reviewer values different characteristics, especially the ones he considers most vital to producing a sense of the live experience.
Do you think any other person hears things the same way you do?
An audio reviewer may do his best to give an honest, straightforward
review, but he is not you. He has his own prejudices, not yours.
So while you may trust reviews by reviewer A more than those by reviewer
B, that does not make either one good or bad, competent or incompetent;
it just makes them different.
Trust your own ears, not some else's.
Mike K I totally agree
Biased? Yeah.
So I own a nce ($1,000 retail on 1995 ish) I bought used for $250.So when the Bryston DAC came out ti many rave reviews..
I bought one.
I was really confused this thing sound no better than my old DAC. I must be doing something wrong.Well after a lot of checking, I realized the Bryston was actually no better. And I took it back for an exchange. (I bought something totally different with the money.
So... All the praise from several magazines meant NOTHING.
Now I have actually found several things which upgraded my setup a big jump.
The latest going from $360 to $1,000 IC. And I mean a wonderful improvement.
But I anm totally skeptical any 'new' DAC can beat an old one unless you spend ten time more, for a slight improvement.When They said perfect sound forever.. I think they really meant it is a limited closed system, and improvements are hard to come by.
Point in fact: look at ANY of the stair-step images of any DACs. They all look the same. $200. or $20,000. (I saw the image for the Bryston DAC3, jeez, the ringing in it sucks) The only difference is if they upsample.
And then the six oz case on $300 DACs , vs the 20 lb case on $20,000 ones. LOL
Edits: 11/23/16
I totally agree with this.
Why not share that information?
It might help someone looking for a good used dac.
So you want to find this 'giant killer'? LOL
IT is not about this one DAC being better than all the rest at all.
The issue is about that many average old DACs are actually JUST AS GOOD as most new DACs costing a lot more. IMO anyway.
There ARE two tweaks I recommend for DACs to improve performance.
The first one is to stuff the DAC case with antistatic foam.
Generally you need to insulate the foam from any circuit board. But the idea is to fill up the inside of the case with the antistatic foam to soak up any stray RFI bouncing around inside the case. And ground it to the case body with any old wire. You can just stick the bare wire end into the foam right through the baggies used to insulate the foam from the circuitry..
Use the black type foam, not the blue..
The DAC runs no hotter with the foam filling the case.
This tweak which is like forgotten, came from a sidebar years ago in Stereophile. A fellow from the Netherlands mentioned it. I have mentioned it several times.. NO one seems to care.
It works for me.
The second tweak is a lot harder to implement. It involves changing the AC voltage FREQUENCY from 60Hz to something higher. (I use 111Hz myself) You would need to find a PS Audio power regenrator like a P300 or P600 which also has an optional frequency board added. These are old devices, and no optional boards can be bought anymore if you find one without the option.
Those regenerators are the ONLY commercial audio type devices I know of which can output an altered AC frequency. I an amazed here is another interesting tweak no company is wanting to do (anymore Wake up PS Audio.. here is a whole huge area to exploit)..
Anyway, the increased AC frequency improves the energy of the components power supply, It does NOT work well for some power supplies which are of the digital type Do not confuse a digital power supply with a DAC. CD player etc.) .. But for most ordinary power supplies, it improves the sound.
I use my PS Audio P600 sparingly, (to preserve it's life, since it is un-replaceable) only for my digital components, so it is loafing along.
Well you can make that generalization about every component, there will always be a few that can compete or be better than a current component.
You stated that your particular dac, beat out the Bryston.
I have a P300, but I use it for my tube preamp, tuner, transport, and dac.
I don't think my other components would like the higher Hz, I know that I tried it in the past.
Yes there are older dacs that hold their own against current models. Often it can boil down to features, my Camelot Arthur V3 24/192 is a good dac, but it lacks a USB input, and even with USB to spdif converter.
I would be short of inputs.
A lot of times with dacs the way they are implemented and the analog stages, are what matters.
If you have found a dac that can be purchased for much less than a newr model that is really good, why not share what it is? There were also a lot of $1k dacs that wouldn't compete with current models.
I'm sure I am not the only one who would like to know what dac beat the Bryston. Why be secretive about it. You either want to buy everyone of them you can find or you're embarrassed by it.
So share the name of the dac, it will tell us if you hear the same things we do.
If you want to know all the dacs I have had in my system, just ask.
I guess I would rather leave you mystified.
Personally I could care less if you need to verify my personal path.
I am certain you can just try out all your DACs and find one to match your needs.
I wouldn't be surprised. There are many excellent DACs out there that don't have to cost a bundle.
words written, re-written to seem even more clever, edited, re-edited, accompanied by audio porn calibre pics
and presented in a carefully designed glossy mag (or website) surrounded by ads for $$$$$ equipment.
Real, honest comments for real people told unhesitatingly by an experienced user unencumbered
by the restraints and pretension of the industry.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I too have found dacs to often sound quite similar. It takes a lot of listening to hear the differences.
If they are using the same dac chips then it is almost all in the analog stages.
So what dac is it that beat out the Bryston?
Upgrading DACs can be tough. IMHO, $1000 +/- a little hits the sweet spot just fine these days. I've owned many DACs over the years. I sold my $5000 Luxman DA-06, sold the $3500 Ayre QB-9 DSD, (and bought and sold many others). My $1299 MSRP DAC is just perfect for my needs.
Abe-
you own and have owned some very fine gear over the years.
I still want your Accuphase CD player (whenever you are ready to sell).
Happy Thanksgiving!
If you're truly interested in the Accuphase DP-65v give my shout when things settle down a bit (holidays, etc). It's a great sounding CD player but I hardly use it anymore. I have two remote controls for it.
It has Optical and Coax input to the DAC section but it won't handle 'hi-res'. I believe it will take 16 - 24 bit up to 48KHz (which includes 16/44.1KHz for CD resolution)..... no DSD or 24/96, 24/192, etc.
Abe- have not received a reply to my PM ?
I don't know the answers to your questions about parts availability. Yes, the unit is old but I've had no problems with it. Will it need a laser replacement soon, in the next few years? I don't know.
PM sent to you, Abe.
Happy Thanksgiving.
JA FANT
fantja@gmail.com
If not you might consider going for the multi-bit upgrade. I did with my Bifrost and I've been pleased.
Adding a 15 in Rythmic sub to my system was a much bigger change than any electronics have made in my system.
nt
.
Human nature.
I have far more confidence in WOM or "reviews"/comments on boards like these than I do in "professional" reviews.
Maybe that's just me.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Me too.
Cheers
Bill
buyers high, maybe lasts a week.
I use a hypex amp, I see you have w4s, a little glare on the top end and not that good low end with the ICE? If it is not ICE forgive me then discount all of this.get a used Auralic Vega for $2,500 like I did. Edit, I see them now for $2,500 new. WOW, Crazy eddie prices now!
Edits: 11/23/16 11/23/16
I prefer the W4S. I'm really pleased with my current system in playing instrumental music, but I think I can use help with vocals. I have already tried several amps and preamps with no real improvement with vocals and was wondering if a top notch DAC, like the Schiit Yggdrasil, would help me out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Humility is the true mark of genius. Just get used to it."
-Anonymous
Audio reviews are just blabber. If you can decide on a whim go ahead, that's a ton of money,Maybe sleep on it? Vocals are a speaker problem, not hardware equipment ;)
Just IMHO Maggie's never did it for me, heresy for the prophets here.
A better DAC, that is quite the upgrade so do as you think, the Mag 1.6 are revealing so think about it.
I myself have noticed once you go $2k+ in the DAC world you are in for an improvement of substantial noticeability, good luck in your quest, if you see me in the forest, I can trade some fresh caught fish for that wild boar you got there. :)
Edits: 11/23/16
" Vocals are a speaker problem, not hardware equipment ;)" This statement is substantially if not completely untrue, IMO. Vocals can be affected by any piece of equipment along with different caps, resistors, anything. Must be the ergot contaminated bok choy, hah Bullethead?? Tweekie
" And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall" Robert Allen Zimmerman
Edits: 11/24/16
apologies, I had too much to drink.
I'm glad I am not taken seriously.
"do as thou wilt" - Aleister Crowley
"....I would like a reasonable assurance that it will make a noticeable improvement in my audio setup. I emailed Schiit with my setup, but they refused to comment.I think that was pretty smart of them. Who can say with certainty that you will notice a worthwhile improvement with their $2300+ DAC.
With that kind of money I would explore other areas of the system as well, including an active preamp and/or another amp. While the ICEpower W4S ST-500 Class D amp is powerful, it's not the last word in lower frequency detail. I owned the similar SX-500 monoblocks and found the bass to be deep and powerful, but the lowest notes were not distinct and detailed as they were on my other amps.... playing double bass (or upright bass) for example.
Just some thoughts but if you have your heart set on a new DAC, it's just money! ;-)
Edits: 11/23/16 11/23/16
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