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In Reply to: RE: I keep getting the feeling... posted by genungo on April 27, 2016 at 02:53:09
Computer audio reminds me of when I was trying to set up a video server back in 1995. Headless this, server that, ingest with this, distribute with that.
Fiddly is the perfect word. I don't want to fiddle with software or hardware...that's not my hobby. I want to hit a button on the remote and get high quality music without spending 30 minutes "getting ready."
That's what I have a turntable for...lol.
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It can be very easy Run Tidal on your computer. USB output to USB input on dac Dac analog output to preamp. That is really very simple
Alan
. . . of what computer audio is like. Once you get the files onto disc, nothing could be easier. If that's what you mean by "getting ready" (i.e., getting the files onto the disc), then, yes, that's a bit of an effort, but OTOH, it shouldn't be overblown. I mean, any subsequent time you play that recording, it's already there, so, indeed, all you have to do is "hit a button on the remote and get high quality music". It's WAY easier than any other method of playback IMHO. (Because I'm a multi-channel kind of guy, I use HDMI connectivity, rather than USB - it seems that at least half the discussion over on the PC Audio forum here deals with USB problems - real or imagined!) I also think that the supposed problems with RFI in playing back music files via computer are totally overblown, especially compared to other methods of playback. In fact, one of my CD/Universal players has a fan, which is WAY more audible than any RFI noise from computer playback.
C'mon, guys - jump on in! The water's fine!
Hey, I'm not knocking it... well maybe a little. I have tried all of it and the guys over at the Hi-Rez area were super cool and helpful.
Problem is, that I found it kind of a pain in the ass. FOR ME... the software was clunky, I made a server out of an old laptop and that was a PITA because it felt like I was back in the 80's working with command prompts. Once that was done, I spent a lot of time downloading the CDs onto the server... all of which is really enjoyable if you are a computer hobbyist like I used to be...but am no more.
All I want is a component that fits in my rack and either downloads from the net or ingests from a drive and then I can scroll through a list and hit "play" if I want to do some critical listening or set it to random and forget about it if I just want background music.
I've seen something like that from Pioneer (Elite N-50), but I haven't tried it yet. Once there's something like that that is both user friendly and high quality, I'll be back on board and I'll stop bitching. :)
But please don't think I was trying to poo-poo your hobby or anything! I listen to records for crying out loud. That's fiddly as well, but in a way that I enjoy.
plug in a HD loaded with FLAC and you have it all, plus streaming services if you wish.
Not really. Yes once you burn all your CDs to hard drive it is pretty simple. While that may take some time it is not a big deal.
The problem is, unfortunately, you are dealing with a computer and all there attended quirks/problems. Lock-ups, continuous software upgrades, etc. This is frustrating and something you do not have to deal with for any other format. To fully implement computer audio you need to have good knowledge and the desire to fiddle with computers. And fiddle you must do.
I won't even start on the nightmare of downloads. Major league PITA!
Don't get me wrong I made the switch to computer audio years ago and would not go back to the spinning CD. But it does take a higher level of attention, time, hassle factor, etc. versus any other format. And you will always have to fiddle with and massage the thing. Vinyl at its worst is vastly easier to deal with.
Computer audio is still not ready for prime time and given the nature of computers probably never will be. It won't get any better since the masses are more than satisfied with their computer audio: iPod or iPhone, etc. But this is largely a moot point I believe. In the long run there will be two competing formats: vinyl and streaming. The writing is on the wall and the major download companies are preparing for that day.
There are plenty of network audio players on the market that are like any other hi-fi component. Use a network audio player and a NAS, both are purpose built turn-key appliances. Then the only time you involve a regular computer is when ripping.
Some people don't like that solution because it doesn't leave much room for tweaking and optimizing. But I've got a job and little kids to chase around so I love having something that just works and sounds good.
I had just been over at the big box store looking at a so-called "cloud drive" and asking this specific question, and was told the opposite. So if I get a cloud drive, I wouldn't have to have my Macbook on at all, and would therefore not have to deal with this Twonky stuff, is that correct?
Most NAS have a built-in DLNA server. I assume by "cloud drive" you mean a WD My Cloud. According to WD, the My Cloud comes with Twonky server. So you would not need to use your computer as a DLNA server any longer.
I see in your system profile that you have a Cambridge Stream Magic. Which control point app are you using with it?
Thanks. I recently updated the iPhone app to CA Connect, if that's what you mean.I just edited my main system, BTW. I no longer own most of that equipment, although I do still have the Cambridge and the Denon.
Edits: 04/28/16
I wasn't sure if you were Android or iOS. If you have an Android device, you might give BubbleUPnP a try. It's my favorite control point on Android, and it provides a way to stream Tidal to devices that don't natively support it.
Agreed if one only wants to stream. No way to play CD.
Most of my listening is to CDs I've ripped. I have about 1.5 TB of music on my NAS, about 2/3 of that is ripped from CD. It streams from the NAS to my network audio players.
Sounds like a nice way to do things. But I will not be buying a server, network player, etc., since my main focus is vinyl. I have a computer so I figured why not use it for audio.
Computer audio works great....most of the time. When it doesn't then you get in to the typical computer issues.
I already had a capable quad core i7 Win7 box that I use for many tasks. I find that LMS software is stable and requires little in the way of resources. I already had a network infrastructure with three access points as I work at home. So I need to reboot the server every couple of days. No biggie. I do use iOS devices, however, as both players and remotes to other players!
I don't fall into the "tweak-the-crap-out-of-the-OS" category you find with dedicated setups. In fact, all I did with LMS is carefully configure it for a minimum of add-ons and gave it medium CPU priority. It serves the Touch player in the main system via ethernet (runs up built-in bookshelves in the office to attic and into listening room).
Vinyl is nice, but having all your digital music instantly available across multiple kinds of players around the house is addictive. LMS also serves movies to a Roku2. Its really cool being able to dial up any of your movies for watching, too.
I'm a vinyl guy, too having grown up in that environment and have two tables - one purchased new in '76. Having said that, I just purchased an HRT ADC and plan to rip some of my vinyl to 96/24 for more convenience. :)
I was most likely being too dramatic about the problems associated with computer audio.
In general my Apple platform is quite stable. Rarely do I have issues. Perhaps once a year I have to update my DAC software. Other minor maintenance issues are required as well. iTunes likes to lock a bit more often than I like but a restart solves the problem.
Having said that I still do believe it is all just a bit too tweaky down loading hi-rez files in particular. No thanks. For some this will of no issue others will feel otherwise. Similar to vinyl in some respect. If one has never played with vinyl before I can see how that might be intimidating. I grew up with it so it does not seem to be a challenge for me.
I have found those that have the highest comfort factor with computer audio have a desire or a greater than average knowledge of computers. I personally don't care to mess with computers the reason I went with Apple.
Don't see ever ripping the vinyl collection to the computer. That is much too tedious a task CDs are no big deal to rip to the computer. It would be more convenient in some situations but I can always use Tidal.
Having said that I still do believe it is all just a bit too tweaky down loading hi-rez files in particular.
I must be blessed. Just downloaded an album from HDTracks. After checkout, clicked "Launch download manager" and after three minutes, files were on my server. Moved them to appropriate folder and had LMS rescan library to find it. Ran Ponomusic and added new folder.
It would be more convenient in some situations but I can always use Tidal.
I thinking of albums unavailable on digital - or at least with the same quality. The first will be my 45 RPM 12" singles. :)
Uh huh. Starting with primarily a 90+% vinyl based library, there's the hurdle.
Then, what file format.
Then what file organizer, and meta art data.
Then multiple backups including one offsite.
Then Ethernet cabling (with CAT choices) installation with no under floor access.
Then a friggin' Apple device to just see the library.
Then break for lunch I suppose. Yes, it would be slick after all that. Especially with 45s.
If I had the resources, I'd go the Steve Miller route: hire a neighbor kid.
. . . especially for obscure recordings. In some case, I've had to resort to making up my own covers. ;-) (Actually though, I could scan the covers myself if I couldn't find them by any other means.)
However, this happens maybe 1%-2% of the time. Mostly, getting the metadata (including the album covers) is a well-tried routine for me, and it really doesn't take that long.
You can reduce your need for backups by using a RAID drive as your primary storage device. Yes, you will still need to make backups every so often - but a lot of this activity can proceed unattended however.
I also appreciate how it might be harder for those with a vinyl library to make the move.
Although I've been an Apple bigot since the mid-80's, I don't see why one would need to use an Apple device just to see one's library - maybe I'm missing something?
Regarding ethernet cabling, mine just runs along the wall-floor boards - not underneath.
You may be an Apple bigot but the bottom line if one is going to go the computer audio route an Apple platform is the best way to go. It is far more stable, less fiddly than any PC alternative.
People buy Apple for one primary reason: it works. This quality is critical for computer audio and that simple cannot be said for PC/Microsoft based systems.
Best advise I got when starting down the computer audio path was go Apple you will not regret it. And I have not. Almost 4 years of basically trouble free operation.
My Cambridge Stream Magic requires that I run a program called "Twonky" in order for it to see the files on my Mac, and Twonky has proven itself to be problematic at times. I've also learned that the Cambridge itself has to be periodically unplugged or strange things begin to happen in the playback queue, such as the same track repeating itself over and over again, or long silences as it buffers. Sometimes I wonder if an exorcist is in order...
I know of no plausible explanation for these issues. I've just learned how to correct them, which I guess is enough. I've been ripping to FLAC files in iTunes, but this thread has me wondering if I'd be better serves by getting the JRMC program. I don't relish the idea of having to re-rip all of that material, though, and I'd still have to run Twonky for the player to be able to see the computer.
In any case, once you've got the files on a hard disc, you should be able use anything. I use Audirvana (mostly in iTunes compatibility mode, but not always) and HQ Player. And I know JRMC works for a lot of folks too. And there are plenty of other alternative SW players too if these choices don't suit your fancy. My DAC is my Marantz pre-pro and it plays files from an external RAID drive physically connected to an iMac in another room of the house.
The "getting ready" part is not the only part that is worrisome and/or bothersome. Read Todd Krieger's post directly below.
There is more, much more to consider in PC audio besides setup. Unless, of course, one is mostly interested in downloading classical music issued or re-issued by audiophile labels and little else. PC audio is simply not trustworthy enough and/or ready enough for a wide variety of audio-conscious consumers.
If one is a classical music afficionado (as you are) then the burden of PC audio is lifted somewhat. But such is not the case with 99% of listeners -audiophiles or otherwise.
PC ( Mac for me ) Audio is great.
I listen to a lot of different types.
Simply playing your ripped CDs is a good place to start.
Not trying it because you "think" it's bogus doesn't make sense to me.
I probably won't be ripping much until I wear out the perfectly good playback hardware that I already own. But if I did want to rip right now, I would probably not choose to use a PC - not even an *optimized* one.For about the same price (or even less) as an *optimized* PC one can rip to soundcards using something like the Tascam DA-3000 recorder/player. You can use it to "rip" from anything that has a digital output and it up-samples too, all without the help of the internet. A trustworthy and ready alternative.
Here is an interesting ALTERNATIVE Product for our consideration (no affiliations)...
Edits: 04/27/16 04/27/16
Server, doodads or smart phone.
I almost never use my disc players anymore.
I also have a Sony Hap Z1, which, except for loading in Files ( which is easy),
isn't even connected to the Computer.
Quality is why I stay with it. DSD and PCM Hi-Res are great and beat the disk players by a mile!
16/44 to DSD 128 also sounds great.
Sometimes I find out about a recording, and a few minutes later I have downloaded it and am listening.
The Aurelic/Aurender combo might be the ultimate ticket for me.
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