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In Reply to: RE: Attention High Resolution Proponents. Neil Young/Steve Jobs posted by geezerrocket on October 07, 2015 at 14:00:05
After reading that section of the article, whaddya think?
Follow Ups:
I agree that the science is not as interesting as the listening.
For me digital is useful when I'm running, driving, or hosting a dinner party.
When I actually want to sit in the sweet spot and listen; Only Vinyl will do.
Note: I have attended numerous shows and have heard many state of the art digital front ends having never heard one that could toe the line with a above average analog front end.......But that's me.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
... in a blind listening test. This would seem to imply that hi-rez is not worse sounding than 16/44 (not better sounding either).
How many people here even read that part of the article?
If I recall correctly, many of the "hi-rez" selections in that test were just standard rez recordings in hi-rez containers. If that's true, then no wonder people couldn't tell a difference.
I've been running this "MP3 vs CD" test (the MP3 converted back to a "CD quality container"), and over 60 percent of the people prefer the converted MP3 track. If people have a hard time distinguishing between those resolutions, I can believe the difficulty in regard to CD quality vs. high-rez.
Heck, I recently took a listening test which I thought the 128 kbps MP3 was the most-resolute track.
I agree with another comment here that half the problem is the recordings themselves haven't exactly been stellar. And I do believe the reason for the awful recordings is a combination of intermingling of formats and designers who I think don't have a solid grasp of DSP/signal theory. (I personally think ProTools in particular is absolute garbage.)
And finally, I believe the RFI from active digital processing "confuses" the brain in regard to sonic differences..... I liken it to conducting a taste test in a perfume shop.
...Please elaborate! Taken literally, you're stating that the human sensory system is capable of directly responding to RF electromagnetic radiation at nW levels. I can understand how rampant RFI from digital sources, processors and other sources "could" cause audible artifacts in susceptible electronics but it doesnt strike me as reasonable that humans would be directly affected.
... "felt" or alerted to the presence of another person before you actually see them?You are walking down the street and, for some unknown reason, something alerts you to notice that someone else's gaze is fixated upon you? An enemy or competitor walks behind you and, somehow, you can "feel" their eyes burning into the back of your head?
It is all because of RFI and/or one of it's subtle variants. This "RFI" is everywhere and in everything - if you'd care to take notice of it, that is. Think of RFI in terms of a few of it's associated elaborations: IRS, CIA, NAFTA. No one in their right mind would deny the power of RFI in the modern world.
Edits: 10/11/15
...with all of the other issues audiophiles have to contend with we now have the IRS, CIA and NAFTA breathing down our necks. And they're using RFI emitted by our digital components to do it.
.., perhaps only Todd knows the answer?Or, whatever the answer is, who is to say it isn't the right one?
Edits: 10/11/15
...how can one know what one believes (or another asserts) to be the truth really is?
OK, I give up. How?
Listen to more Pink Floyd and Moody Blues. It's all there.
:)
Well, at least you didn't say "yep!".
Anything is possible, I guess.
"Anything is possible, I guess."
Much of music and audio is a scam. It is done for money and not for love of music. Even if the music is played for love by the musicians, many of the people who produce and sell the records are in it for the money. Many of these people are parasites who make their living by exploiting musicians.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
And yet even now, whenever I go to a dealer or a show, there will always be people who grab me by the lapels and, with a supernatural look in their eyes, mystically intone the word, "Vinyl!" - expecting that I too will thereby become a part of their resurrection rites. ;-)
For you and people like you. To each, their own, no doubt.
Doesn't stop collecting CDs either.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
... when I hear people "mystically intone" about the superiority of hi-rez digital over plain Jane 16/44. I agree that hi-rez can sound good, I think it sounds slightly better than redbook sometimes, but the minor diffs are nothing to wax romantic about.Hi-rez digital is "Flavor of the Month", as far as I'm concerned - at least at this point in time.
If you listen almost exclusively to classical music (as I believe you do), you are one of the few who are consistently being treated to well-recorded audiophile productions of acoustical music wherein slight advances in resolution are most noticeable. Other, more popular genres of music are not very often handled with the same care in production. So, unless you like classical music an awful lot you are probably wasting your time worrying about the latest in hi-rez tech - at this point in time at least.
I believe that there are more important issues to consider in the making of a good sounding recording than detail resolution, and that is why I'll look for the most musically satisfying production rather than the one with the highest resolution. If the "best" musical production seems to be on vinyl, I'll take it. If the best production is on redbook, I'll take that one. If the best is on hi-rez digital, I'll (eventually, not immediately) take that one too.
All that said, in many (not all!) cases there is something about the *resolution* and overall sound quality of a recording cut on vinyl. Despite all of vinyl's problems, what I think I'm hearing on a good vinyl record is a natural sense of liveliness, "flow", and atmosphere that I've rarely heard with other formats. I realize that I'm probably listening to distortions of various types but the overall effect is oftentimes a very pleasing one, for me. All I can do is to recommend that everyone give good vinyl a try sometime (while they are trying out everything else there is to be tried, of course).
Edits: 10/08/15 10/08/15
"If you listen almost exclusively to classical music (as I believe you do), you are one of the few who are consistently being treated to well-recorded audiophile productions of acoustical music wherein slight advances in resolution are most noticeable. Other, more popular genres of music are not very often handled with the same care in production. So, unless you like classical music an awful lot you are probably wasting your time worrying about the latest in hi-rez tech - at this point in time at least."
I feel that way with modern pop recordings, relative to good rock, jazz, or classical recordings..... Take the Rush song "Xanadu", from the album "A Farewell to Kings".... One can definitely notice a loss of information playing the CD relative to the vinyl. (Provided both rigs are quite good.)
But most modern pop releases, Lady Gaga, Three Doors Down, The Blackeyed Peas, etc. .... The music is so overprocessed, higher resolution might actually have detrimental effect on the enjoyment of it.
"I believe that there are more important issues to consider in the making of a good sounding recording than detail resolution, and that is why I'll look for the most musically satisfying production rather than the one with the highest resolution."
I think they go hand in hand.... Many people mistake accentuated highs (for example) for "higher resolution"..... Higher resolution playback in my opinion sounds more relaxed and real, not "hyper-detailed".
A great acid test for resolution is the Donald Fagen song "I.G.Y." ("The Nightfly" album).... There is an electronic keyboard that plays a reggae-style "syncopation" in the intro..... That keyboard plays this "syncopation" during the entire song, and should be easily audible during the entire song. Too often it gets "drowned out" in the music following the intro.
"If the 'best' musical production seems to be on vinyl, I'll take it. If the best production is on redbook, I'll take that one. If the best is on hi-rez digital, I'll (eventually, not immediately) take that one too."
It's very rare where I encounter the best production being on a digitized format. (I know a few such productions, but have drawn a blank for now.) I almost always prefer the vinyl.
"All that said, in many (not all!) cases there is something about the *resolution* and overall sound quality of a recording cut on vinyl. Despite all of vinyl's problems, what I think I'm hearing on a good vinyl record is a natural sense of liveliness, 'flow', and atmosphere that I've rarely heard with other formats. I realize that I'm probably listening to distortions of various types but the overall effect is oftentimes a very pleasing one, for me. All I can do is to recommend that everyone give good vinyl a try sometime (while they are trying out everything else there is to be tried, of course)."
The only time I notice a "loss of resolution" in CD playback is when I play vinyl of the same music. Rarely the case with high-resolution digital formats.
You've touched on an interesting point, IMO. When I talk about "detail resolution", I'm not necessarily thinking only about treble resolution.
"Detail" involves everything that is there to be heard in a recording, and this includes the soft aspects as well as the harder ones; the sense of inter-connectedness or "flow" that represents the presence of a sonic event taking place within an earthly atmosphere, "image density" as well as image specificity, the sense of natural "bloom" that is present in the propagation of actual music-making, suitable 3-D sensations, and numerous other elements that belie easy description.
We know true detail resolution when we hear it.
| unless you like classical music an awful lot
I like classical music an awful lot.
I find hi-res to be indistinguishable from 16/44.
I also find 320 kbps streaming to be indistinguishable as well, at least it's way below my threshold for caring.
I find an enormous difference in sound quality and texture among various recordings of the same piece: the mere audio advantages of browsing through many albums through streaming services is tremendous.
Add the novelty of finding random new things.
Digital rules, phonograph drools!
OK, that's not true, I'm sure that there is plenty of good sounding LP recordings, but I was quite underwhelmed at the first and only audio show I've been to, just recently. Plenty of high end 'vinyl' (ugh I hate the word), and yet either I heard stuff which was either fine, or congested. All of the digital sounded fine to me. And clicks and pops and 23 minutes per side and cleaning and blah blah blah.
And you can't stream phonograph recordings.
.., many of which are of probably of little interest to anyone but me. I don't really care, I'll talk anyway. Another reason to "like" vinyl and CD?They exist.
We have gone to the trouble of manufacturing zillions of plastic discs and playback machines (many of them quite decent sounding), at substantial cost to ourselves and the environment, and we're simply going to junk them and/or throw them into the landfill just so that we can avail ourselves of a few extra iotas of resolution and... convenience?
THIS kind of narcissistic thinking has no place on my lifestyle menu any longer. Thanks, but no thanks...
Edits: 10/08/15 10/08/15
I have several hundred Edison wax cylinders. They aren't in a landfill. I actually play them occasionally, and enjoy them. That doesn't mean they aren't obsolete. So what? You'll never get that source material in hi-res anyway. It also doesn't mean I don't like better formats, and better quality audio then was available in 1905.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
... would, of course, totally collapse if more people did according to genungo. Bring it on, I say. I'll be enjoying the last of whatever remains as fascinating and obsolete in audio while Rome burns to the ground - as it almost certainly will, eventually...
Bwa-haaaa-haaaaa!
Exactly!
No different than;
1) Brunette vs Blonde
2) Thong vs Girdle (never mind - bad example)
3) Pie vs Cake
4) Coffee vs Tea
5) Ford vs Chevy
6) Tubes vs Transistors
I do love the convenience of digital and still think that the science is still in the 4th inning, where as vinyl is a very mature products that is pretty much in the bottom of the 9th.
I have had the same crazies grab me and bring me into lack luster vinyl rooms as well. We all here things a bit differently......
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
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