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I have had the same speakers for over 6 years (Revel F52). I like them a lot and give me everything I want in a speaker.
My Preamp (Pass X2.5) is about 6 years old too and It does everything I want it to do. But its getting old and I want better. I just upgraded the amp to a PASS X250.5 about 2 years ago.
I want new speakers, just for the sake of change, but that's a 6K+ hit
I want to upgrade the preamp to the PASS XP10 at an exchange of about $2200
I know this is a ridiculous problem, but non the less I'm torn.
I cant afford both.
Ok , lets hear it...
Follow Ups:
Just bought a pr of Wilson watt puppy 8's from a dealer that will install them for a great price. I demoed them and was very surprised how coherent they sounded and I liked the high end. Spent over an hour demoing them. Bass and overall sound was very musical. So much so the cheap guy I am spent the money for them over Thiel cs 3.7 and eggleston works andra III and Sophia 3's
Get off of it. You sound like you like everything your stereo does just fine.
Find something else to do with your money. Enjoy what you have!
$6000 will buy a LOT of music.
=Signature=================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.ster
Flat response but all screwed up in time because of the high order filters.
However, I have found huge gains to be had from a good tube preamp. Just depends on what you want to spend I guess.
A change in speakers MIGHT yield the biggest difference, but as another poster suggested, you have some great stuff, and it obviously has some synergy. I wouldn't just change for change's sake. Proceed with extreme caution.
.
It looks like you have spent a lot of time and effort on your system, and I have not read the entire thread, so if you are headed a different way that is great also. Yu seem to be happy with your system, and sometimes a component change can upset the synergy you have built in your system.
There are two things I did in my system that made a significant positive difference without changing components and I suggest you try the same. Neither of them have the excitement of buying a new piece of equipment, but both made a real and worthwhile difference.
I added a Vibraplane, and I think that or a Minus K platform would make a big difference. The other item I added was Nordost SortFut to my speakers. If you have a good dealer, you might be able to get a trial of the SortFut.
Both of those items made significant differences in the clarity of my system, but added no harshness, and also reduced the general background noise.
Good luck with whatever changes you make to your system.
Big step up in sonics from the x2.5
Can listen at vanishingly low levels and not missing significant musical details.
Yet when I crank up the levels I don't cringe.
Amazing job they did there.
Bright Yellow C6 Corvette Convertible with over 400 HP. I love it. Its a blast on these east TN mountain roads. Need a thrill. Get in the Vette. Find a back road. Press the throttle and hold on. Goes around a corner like a snake. 0-60 in 4.2 seconds. 1/4 mile in the low to mid 12's. 185 top speed.
My stereo (and your) has similar specs, only in audio rather than HP and speed. The problem is that we all want different. We get bored. Eating the best steak every day would get old too. Just like listening to great music gets old. I've found that having several hobbies is the ticket for me. I love my Vette but I would not want it as a daily driver because the rush would become commonplace. I see people on the Corvette Forum who are bored with 700 HP. They now want 900. Its like the drug addict who needs just a little more to get off and get that rush. I put the Corvette away around Dec until April. Then when I get in it in April, I can remember that rush again. Its fresh. The same is true with music for me. BTW music has been the one constant throughout my life. I've always loved music. It is my escape. I listen to it. I play it (drums). But my system came to about the same point as what you describe. The music sounded great. But I wasn't interested anymore. I'm putting in new flooring in my LR which is my listening. This is why I came back here. been gone for some time. But now I'm going to have to re-voice my system. I came back and asked a few questions. Then I had to look through the classifieds. BANG. Here I am on the merry go round again. It will get worse when I finish the floor and set up my system again. By the time I get bored, it will be time to pull out the Vette. Variety is the key for me.
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
I bought the 435HP Mustang GT 50th anniversary package then add a high performance exhaust, Tune and then suspension upgrades....Love this car. Traded in a supercharged Audi A6 for it.
I hit 0-60 in 3.9 quarter in 12.4. It has a built in light tree and computer to record my time.
The Vette weighs at least 500 lbs less with the same HP. But I'm used to Mustangs wanting to prove themselves.
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
I recently grappled with exactly the same question as you Fin1...whether to invest in upgraded amplification (in my case, moving to separates) or better speakers. I feel like my system is already well balanced, so in the end I concluded I would get the best bang for my buck by upgrading my current Magico S5's to the new S7's.Here is an example of a guy who broke the bank on his speakers and didn't look back - http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue70/magico_vitus.htm
Mind you, as another inmate suggested earlier, i'm also addressing the room at the same time & plan to add some room treatments. My situation is similar to yours in that my listening room is also my living/dining room, so i'm going with Franch Tchang's Acoustic resonators which are much less obtrusive than traditional panels and bass traps. I posted an active link below fyi. Cheers.
Vitus SCD025MkII, SIA025, Oppo BPD-103AU, Magico S5's, Taoc ASR racks + SCB-RS50g, Stillpoints Ultra 6's/Mini's/LPI's, Furutech GTX-D(G), Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo, Jorma Prime pc's + xlr's/Statement sc's/Unity pc, Siltech Classic Anniversary rcas + HDMI
Edits: 10/02/15 10/02/15 10/02/15 10/02/15 10/02/15 10/02/15
You have a fantastically capable system, it sounds as it should - in fact, everything sounds brilliant and would impress your mates - but it leaves you cold. Music is a passionate business, and right now even though your mind is satisfied, your passion is thwarted. Nothing more frustrating.My advice, sell the whole lot and start again. Go to RMAF or similar shows. Take some music with you and resist the urge to buy anything for as long as you can. Explore the outer reaches of audio - chip amps, triodes, horns, PC audio, class A, class B, class D, class T, hybrids, transmitter tube amps, vintage cinema amps, active speakers, DIY, ... whatever you can find. The weirder the better.
Focus on the systems that make you forget the system. And that's where you start your next journey.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Edits: 10/02/15
I have thought about that. But I have been there done that. SET, Tubes, Single driver Back Loaded horns, electrostatics, Magneplaners, dozens of other under 7k speakers over the years.
I currently have 3 systems - a small music room with Quad ESL57 modded Dynaco Bottlehead preamp. Bedroom system ADS910 with Nad equipment and my living room system.
I love my amp and wouldn't trade it for anything else (I have Manley Snappers if I want to uses tubes) I have a great VPI turntable set up and wouldn't trade that. I have a CIN Mag step up transformer and northstar phono preamp, wouldn't trade that.
So its the preamp and the speakers that I want to play around with...
With your situation, they may have knowledge of synergistic matches that take you where you need to go. Since you have darling components, and thus constraints around what configurations you will consider, perhaps this is a useful option.
Let us know how you get on!
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
...your system essentially does everything you want it to do ...but you want to mess with success.
It's your money ...so roll the dice.
Were it my decision to make, I'd stay put and buy someone I love a nice present.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
...buy a bunch of new music.
Many people would love to own your current setup. Buy software and concert tickets instead.
Everyday is Christmas here in high end audio land lol How I wish. Santa hasn't brought many new toys lately. At least not any I can afford.
I like the train, its been 40+ years in the making.
My record collection grows on a regular basis. Just saw Eric Clapton at the garden about 2 months ago, James Taylor in Queens last month.
I attend shows at the Beacon and MSG at least a few times a year, Oh and lets not forget Lincoln center and Carnegie Hall for those classical pieces....Local jazz joints too.
I live 8 miles west of NYC
...why you have this problem. You're from JerZ! :-)
Having such amazing performances happening so close and not missing the opportunity is a good thing. I got on the train back in the 1960's so know chasing the muse story very well.
Spend $2k on 1st reflection and diffuser panels and then another grand on a Dirac minidsp unit to correct the bass and speakers.A permanent upgrade that keeps on giving no matter the gear
Rodney Gold Cape Town
SBT-DIRAC-Devialet- Giya G1's and a swarm of subs.
DSP will screw up more than it helps - belongs in HT environment but not 2 channel playback - we don't need no stinking X and O's!
Not true!
Sound absorption and diffusers.....I might not have said it straight out My system sounds awesome. I even have the speakers spike to cement blocks instead of the wood floor, to reduce vibration effects of the wood floor (Under carpet)
I just have the bug to upgrade or prevent my preamp from failure after being on almost 24/7 for 6+ years...
> > I just have the bug to upgrade...
Seems you've basically admitted this is far more about wanting new toys than truly improving sound. What do they say about males? We're all just little boys at heart and love our toys. The toys just get more expensive as we get older.
But, that's fine. You're being more honest than most, who concoct rather transparent rationalizations that its "about the music." Think of most owners of expensive or unique cars. They don't race or even push the car to its driving limits; rather they just enjoy owning the object, and sometimes you just want a new or different one.
Preamp ON for 6 years? YAWN.
Call me in another decade. Preamps are fairly conservatively designed and unless there is a hotspot or marginal PS or a problem (like it regularly pops a fuse?) I simply wouldnt' get wrapped around the axel.
Now if you just want something new? Have fun.
Too much is never enough
Your half correct, but If I'm changing something I do want an improvement. That's why at this point its expensive. So I do my research, I reach out here, then make an informed decision.
I never do anything without beating it to death..
And I'm one of those guys with fast cars or motorcycles, and I can tell you I don't drive 55....
> > And I'm one of those guys with fast cars or motorcycles, and I can tell you I don't drive 55....
Never said you did 55 -- there is a big difference between pushing a sports car to its limits on a race track and driving faster than the average Joe on public roads.
http://www.njmp.com/trackdays/
Hmmm can hit 130 on the straits...
> > I just have the bug to upgrade or prevent my preamp from failure after being on almost 24/7 for 6+ years
Sounds like you knew that from the get-go. So, git-er-dun, already!
If you don't become the ocean, you'll be seasick every day.
- Leonard Cohen
Bad DSP correction is worse than none. Good DSP is great.
nt
You all have been great - I appreciate all the advice and comments.Even through I had these speakers for 6 years, I still like them. I have had many other quality speakers and still own a pr of rebuilt Quad 57's ADS910, Cizak II and Tangent RS2's.
The Quads I could live with for life; if I had to only have one pr and not be able to buy another.
After a good listening session last night (With the wife and some Vodka) I'm going to do the preamp upgrade. I figure in the future I would want the upgraded preamp anyway. I'm happy with the PASS house sound so that's where I'll stay. (PS: I do have a pr of Manley Snapper 100 watt tube amps - I'm in search of a Manley Jumbo shrimp to match them) But the PASS amp is a better match for the Revels.
I'm also going to go get an AC conditioner for the head equipment.
And when I save for new speakers, since I like the revels so much, I'll just go up the line to the Studio or Salons...maybe Thiel 3.7's
Edits: 10/01/15 10/01/15
...the pass amplifiers do prefer to be run in a balanced mode, and they're really designed to be used with a solid state preamplifier. The house sound you're getting is partially due to the preamplifer/amp match.
You can get good results with a tubed preamp, just be aware of the tradeoffs (potentially some freq extreme rolloffs). Balanced is best and just make sure the impedance matching works.
If you can afford it, consider Atma-sphere (close to $5,000 new)
Thanks for the heads up, I am already using balanced cables between pre and amp. I also agree about equipment synergy...I once tried a Audio Research SP17 preamp and it didn't work out.
Inmate Tom Schuman brought up a good point. If you feel that you need a slight bit of warmth or a more full-bodied sound in your setup, the Pass XP-10 will be a side-ways move. You probably won't hear a significant change vs your X2.5.
I owned the XP-10 -AND- the X2.5 preamps from Pass. (I bought the XP-10 from RenoHiFi). They are both very neutral sounding to my ear with the XP-10 being maybe slightly smoother but the overall tonal presentation is the same. The XP-10 obviously has a much improved remote control. The older Pass remotes were a bit of a challenge in that Pass tried to do too much with too few buttons! If you're a Pass owner then you know what I'm talking about. The XP-10 remote was a lot easier to use.
One of my best sounding systems came to life when I ran the Cary SLP-05 tube preamp into my Pass X150.5 amp. My speakers were the Tannoy Definition D500 floor standers and the Thiel CS2.4. The Tannoys are easier to drive and have a warmer more robust sound while the Thiels are more detailed with better soundstage and imaging. The Thiels definitely benefit from tubes somewhere in the audio chain, IHMO.
While the XP-10 is an excellent preamp that is perhaps a little more refined than the X2.5, it will not make a significant tonal change to your setup. But its a safe bet if you like what you presently have.
Good for you!
If you wish to trade in your pre, Reno HiFi will probably give you a good deal. They are easy to work with.
Enjoy,
Jack
It's possible, looking at your components, that your system is on the 'accurate' and 'analytical' side and that you're looking to get a bit of warmth in the system.Various components I've used that sounded to me:
Grado woodbody cartridge ('platinum' high output MM)
Tubes somewhere in the repro chain (I had a modified counterpoint SA3000 tube preamplifier/phono stage for a while that was outstanding, too bad no longer available.)Messing with cables: at your own peril.
If you want to change out the speakers, one brand I'd want to check out, even though they're not real visible in the audio press these days, is the ESS Labs people in California, using the AMT Heil tweeter crossed over very low (800Hz) to big 12 bass drivers in a low squat design (link below). A pair of really nice big sounding speakers for around $4,500. What I love about the older ones I'm using now is that the mid/tweeter crossover is simply less noticeable than with more conventional dome tweeter designs, and the seamlessness sounds just stunning. In addition to the high sensitivity, and the bass punch from the large LF drivers.
These are great value speakers, when some are spending that much on minimonitors, these are true full range speakers at a good value price.Be aware, that changing out speakers is likely to start a merry go round, you have to love the process (and have the money for it), not just the results.
Cheers.
Edits: 10/01/15 10/01/15
I heard the old ESS speakers way back when. Sounded nice, even on a lowly late 70s Marantz amp. I bet they would kill on modern electronics. 98 db / 1 watt. Would be fine on my little 30 watt XA amp.
If you are sure the speaker gives you everything you need in a speaker, then dont change the speaker. But then if you are changing just for the heck of it, then dont put a budget limit.
Change speaker cables, interconnects and clean up the power dept. Add acoustic treatments. Sip Single Malt while listening.
Cheers
Bill
You're welcome to come by and take a listen if you want.
They might be just a lateral move though - I got a nice pair of Cornscallas too with a 300B amp - but they would defiantly screw up your decor for sure...
Got some Tonian TL D1's they are nice for a change of pace speaker...(full rage driver with tweeter)
Mike
Great to hear from you - been a while....Glad your trying SET....I had the FI X with Magnaquest transformers and also built Bottlehead 2a3 amps along with the Foreplay III preamp (Which I still have). Used them with home built fostex FE206 driver In the Correct Fostex BLH cabinet and Cornwall's.
I regret selling those fostex and Bottlehead amps.
You want new speakers.
Period. Go get them. You need to know if you're not crazy. You are hoping when you hear them, you'll know you're right.
And you are. I know it.
In love my speakers as well. I've been considering a second set of speakers with a very different presentation so I can swap speakers. Something like Magnepans or Ohms.given that you are a classic rock guy Ohms might be an interesting second set and they offer a 120 day home trial. I recently tried a pair of Maggies, but they went back. The home trial was fun and only cost me the return shipping.
Speakers will make more of an audible change than a preamp.
Why don't you spend some money on electrical upgrades and acoustical
fixes to your room?
Go to live concerts
.
"I can't compete with the dead". (Buck W. 2010)
nt
...they will give you the biggest change and perhaps you'll be happy for a while.
Newer preamp, new cables/cords, better isolation/electrical conditioning are all incremental improvements.
Find a pair of speakers you can fall in love with.
Better? Ear of the beholder.
-Wendell
If you want to change something you should get yourself a nice tube preamp !
I think you're in a position where it would be easy to spend 6K only to move sideways.....or worse yet, goof up the nice synergy you already have. I'd probably leave well enough alone and try a few tweaks for openers. Isolation devices/footers, a better power conditioner and maybe a more refined speaker cable. All are items that can be thoroughly auditioned before making a final purchase commitment.
The pre-amp is the heart of any system- start here.
After putting together systems for friends and family and myself for 50 years the speaker is the key to everything. Find a speaker you just can't live without, buy it and then worry about the rest. Next would be the right power amp to go with the speaker. Then Preamp. Then sources and last cables
Alan
"I have had the same speakers for over 6 years (Revel F52). I like them a lot and give me everything I want in a speaker....I want new speakers, just for the sake of change."
With all due respect, I don't think **audiophiles** can help you with that one.
I've been there, just want something to change.last time I wanted to blow money "just because" I bought a car which wasn't needed. It helped fill the empty void for about 2 years until I got depressed again and I have spent the past 7 years regaining what I've lost in terms of dollars spent.
are you sure with a system like that you want it to change?
or is this a mid-life crisis? I've had a few of those, they are not fun.
if none of those, I'd say try a separate amplifier first. Pass is nice, but there are a lot of others out there, speakers would be a dramatic change, get some Magico's or Wilson's used and that should change everything dramatically.
I love to blow money myself, it makes you feel better mentally and helps the economy by increasing the velocity of money.
Edits: 09/30/15 09/30/15
Bullethead, so you mean I have but one more year before I regret my mid life crisis car? Thanks man.fin1, even though your speakers are rated to 30 Hz, do consider a real sub and an 8033 to help tweak it..
Edits: 09/30/15
my brand new mid life crisis car cost me $18k, dealer was surprised I paid in cash.
I am still trying to fill that void after the fact.
Love my car
I apriciate your input , I'm 52 and have been listening to music since my youth. I can at least tell you these purchases are from saved money.
get yourself some new speakers.
You've got the dough saved?
Stressful job?
Kids in College?
Your wife likes to listen to music with you?
OK, so get HER some new speakers, you BOTH deserve them!
Nothing tells your wife you love her more than a new pair of speakers.
Or maybe it's jewelry, but speakers will do.
Problem solved.
PS - you can always sell the pair you have to also defray the cost of
the new speakers you buy (shop used) but wait a time to see if the
new pair floats your boats.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Feel the same way
Alan
glad to help, I'm going to be 38, I have been doing this hobby since around the age of 17. It is glorious pastime, I listen to music about 3 hours a day and on the weekends even longer.
good luck in your quest on making yourself happy. I'm pretty fortunate to found out about this hobby early on, it has brought me untold amounts of enjoyment.
...to have a set up like that and want to change just for the sake of change. Buy yourself a nice bottle of single malt, enjoy what you have, and save a few thousand dollars.
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for others. It's the same way when you're stupid.
If you want a dramatic change, getting new speakers will do that.
That said, if you are basically happy with what you have, but just want somewhat better, trade up your pre for a better/newer model. That will do the trick.
Jack
The occasions I've tried that or witnessed that, the change was too often for the worse..... Not just audio, but anything.
Just a warning.... Especially if your budget happens to be tight.
If you want to change, always audition. You'll be happy that you did.
so that should be your focus.
"I want new speakers, just for the sake of change, but that's a 6K+ hit."
Obviously one you don't want to take, so you're looking for a compromise.
Shop used, save $$$$$$.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
.
You didn't say what you listen to, or what your source components are.
Or why you're looking to change (I mean, there are many things in life you may need to change, before you do anything with your hifi!! :)
In general, digital source components (and the recordings) can be good or not good). The amplification chain or the speaker does not need changing, does it? Unless something is broken, I don't think getting a newer Pass preamp is going to change much.
In your position, if you're detemined to buy something new, you could add a nice subwoofer.
Consider room treatment, also, or speaker positioning changes.
The upgradeitis can be dangerous and expensive, and unecessary.
Determine exactly why you are unhappy with your system, and then you can move towards doing something about it. This is not an easy task.
Remember, the right solution to a problem depends on an accurate description of the problem.
Cheers
I listen to mostly Classic Rock, through a Dynavector XX2 cart on a VPI Supper Scoutmaster with upgrades. Cin MAg transformers to a Northstar phono preamp.
My room is acoustically treated at proper locations.
My interconnects are Cardas Neutral. My speaker wire is Radio Shack Mega cable bi wired (I like them).
My bass is not an issue at all I can get down under 30hz without boom. These speakers excel at bass slam and prat.
I listen to at least 30 hrs. of music a week.
I'm looking to change the preamp because its getting older and I would want to upgrade.
I want to change the speakers for no other reason than I want to try something else.
If you want better sound then the best thing that you can do will be to move the rack and TV away from their position in between the speakers.
As you make no comment at all about what aspect of sound reproduction you are dissatisfied with then it is pretty much impossible to offer any other advice beyond that you could buy the latest issue of Stereophile. The current issue is one of the twice yearly "reommended Components" editions. Open the issue on the preamp pages. Put on a blindfold, take a pin in your hand. Buy whatever the pin lands on (subject to price). Repeat with the speaker pages.
You "listen to at least 30 hours of music a week"? Do you have a family? A job? Seems like you could find something more meaningful to do than replacing good components.
If you are seeking "change", maybe you could try listening to different kinds of music.
Yes I work, yes I have a family. Not that its any of your business, my sons are away at college and my wife listens to music with me.
Listening to music is my hobby and my relaxation from a high stress job.
I also listen to Blues and Classical music about 20% of the time
There have been lots of useful suggestions, so here is mine. Tubes are a great way to get a richer sound. The pre-amp makes lots of sense because tubes will last longer in a less stressed component than a power amp. I believe better speaker cables are in order. Bi-wire at leat. Bi-amping with tubes over solid state with your Revels should be real good. The new Audioquest Niagra is an audible upgrade that I wish I could afford myself. Overall a really good problem to have. Let us know what you do. And how much you love it.
bigshow
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