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In Reply to: RE: Ideal frequency response curve posted by throwback on June 16, 2015 at 06:03:35
Since the human ear's sensitivity changes with loudness, adjusting the system at one level will change the moment the music gets louder or softer.. IF you are relying on meters and response curves.
I certainly would think someone should have, by now, made an 'enlightened' loudness contour switch..
One which mimics/adjusts to the natural response of the human ear.
I have always found a subwoofer set to be perfect for chamber music is way way too loud the moment Rock and Roll is put on. Or, if adjusted for Rock and Roll, then the Classical music and Jazz response of the sub sucks.
It is all about perceived loudness
Follow Ups:
I find that the lowered sensitivity of the bottom octaves occurs whether I'm listening live or at home. In other words, *correcting* the bass level when music is played back at lower levels (or what my brain thinks is a greater distance from players) sounds unnatural to me.
Live (unamplified) performers don't have loudness buttons nor do I find them useful for my music systems.
You hit the nail on the head. Live music must follow the same loudness rules, so classical basslines playing at piano level are supposed to be really quiet. So assuming the piece is properly recorded, why would you want to boost the level just to satisfy some wrong headed notion of "correctness"?
The way things are going, 20 years from now, audiophiles will be debating which tone control and loudness contours are ideal.........
This is why I cringe at the "digital room correction" thing.... There was once a time where doing this in the analog domain was frowned upon, even though it was a lot more transparent sonically than digital room correction.
with the HT system (where bass traps are not used), I use a mild amount of attenuation using the processor's parametric EQ to flatten out two peaks centered between 90-100 hz.
Annoying boom gone from the room.
"I find that the lowered sensitivity of the bottom octaves occurs whether I'm listening live or at home. In other words, *correcting* the bass level when music is played back at lower levels "
Fine, great. But you are also on a different topic than what the OP is talking about.
:)
the topic found in the post from Smelly Socks to which I replied.
Had I replied to the OP, I would agree with your observation.
To recap:
Smelly Socks is wrong about the topic of his response
I find that Smelly Socks is also wrong about his wrong response.
Does that clear things up? :)
Smelly_socks is exactly right.
"Equalization" is meaningless, since it's volume dependent and recording dependent.
This is why they used to have tone controls.
My goal is a realistic reproduction of the experience of listening to live acoustic music in a concert hall, recital hall or jazz venue. The recording will provide an acoustic perspective as to the size of the hall and the listener's position. Were the listener to listen to an actual (or imagined) concert from that position, he would hear a range of volume levels (from ppp to FFF) and tonalities as produced by the musicians playing their instruments. Realistic reproduction requires that the volume and tonality the listener perceives from his listening position match what he would have heard in the (real or imagined) live performance, whether the musicians are playing loud or soft.
The psycho-acoustic effects on tonal balance of volume do not come into play if the volume levels are correctly matched, because the volume related hearing sensitivity would be the same for both the live and the reproduced music. If the combination of record equalization and playback equalization match and the listener adjusts his volume control correctly then he will get a level of realism throughout the entire recording.
There are two provisos. First the recording must be undistorted and uncompressed, so that a constant volume control setting will apply throughout the entire recording. Second, the playback chain must be capable of undistorted output of the full range of musical sounds produced by the instruments at the required volume levels. If these are not met, then realism is hopeless and the recording and/or playback system are not suitable for anything but background music. In this regard, a system that is adequate for realistically reproducing solo harpsichord music may not be able to reproduce organ music recorded in a large cathedral or a Mahler symphony in a large concert hall.
I have found that playback systems that use stepped volume controls with 2 dB (or larger) steps do not permit sufficiently accurate matching of levels for many recordings. Volume differences of about 0.5 dB are audible, so a stepped volume control with 1 dB steps is (barely) adequate in this regard. Frequency response differences in the amount of 0.5 dB (or less) are readily audible over various frequency bands. The traditional bass and treble tone controls lack sufficient flexibility to correct errors in recording equalization or speaker and room response, among other reasons because two knobs are not enough.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
You'd think that, after 50 years of Audio, Stereo Review, Stereophile, TAS and other ragazines, we wouldn't still be having this conversation.Long ago, I recognized that Rule #1 about these mags is that they never get past "Audio 102" and into more advanced info. That's one big reason why I haven't bought one in a loooong time - there's nothing new. But I digress.
The OP was asking about a room curve. This doesn't vary with level. You and Socks are talking about an entirely different topic.
Some of you guys really need to pick up a book on acoustics and read it, as I said in this post:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/70/700456.html
... and which was the topic of my thread "Books Which Every Audiophile Should Own" (or something like that).
:)
Edits: 06/16/15
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