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In Reply to: RE: to Stehno. posted by huubdas on March 19, 2015 at 20:31:14
I agree with you, huubdas. I have the same problem with digital.
Follow Ups:
I have no problem with digital done correctly, my concern is overpriced rip-off analogue & digital, I can never understand why folks lack commonsense and throw money away on so-called High End Audio, it seems they are buying appearance and not SQ which they fail to understand you can not change the laws of physics. do not be misled by the reviewers you always have to listen for yourself. Incidently infrastructure in UK is much older than in the US.
Edits: 03/22/15 03/22/15 03/22/15
I started listening closely to music in the mid 50s when there was only "hi fi". I loved certain musicians and knew I wasnt hearing everything they were doing and started buying equipment, saving and moving up to really hear their music. I've finally got a system that a long trained ear gives me everything I can reasonable (and financially) expect:
Nottingham 294 table and arm with motorcontroller, Ortofon Black Credenza, Einstein Turntables Choice phono pre; C-J CT 5 preamp; Quicksilver monoamps; Ayon cd player plus casette player and Elite fm tuner and Reference 3A Grand Veena speakers. I use a Haley power conditioner but not for the amps which are plugged into the outlets straight. The whole is on its own circuit and used with an Environmental Potential whole house protector. That EP unit made a HUGE difference in the sound of my system The Ayon 07s is a digtital wonder but not quite as good as the Nott.
Edits: 03/22/15
Mr. Curl, nice to hear that, I started to believe I was the only one.
The big question: what to do next ? Tranquilizers before listening to CD's ?
Half a bottle of wine ? Cottonwoolplugs in the ears ?
Just joking a bit, but not so bad after all perhaps.
Before reaching for the medication, perhaps you should share with John my other notes.
But then again, Mr. Curl and I went over this a few years ago.
Sorry Mr Stehno, I don't hear benefits of powerline cleaning. Some High End Players running on batteries, no difference. Power supply's tweaked, absolute clean: no difference.
No, there is one solution: medication (valium, valerian, mariehuana), booze, wetted cottonwoolearplugs. Just like discofreaks at discoconcerts.
For the necessary daily musical entertainment I stick with my old vinyl.
I'm too old, it's time for music, not for toying with crappy format's like CD and DVD.
Well, I'm certainly not going to question whether or not you're too old. But you're obviously troubled with just listening to music, otherwise I have to assumeing you would have been listeing to music instead of opening this thread.
That's fine. I just don't want you to deceive yourself into thinking you're listening to increased levels of musicality when you listen to vinyl.
As stated the perceived rounder warmer fuller sound you are hearing is really nothing more than colorations overshadowing the distortions and much of the music too.
Surely you must know that perceived sense of increased musicality comes at a price. Without properly addressing universal distortions that plague every system regardless of format, it's really just pick your poison.
> > I just don't want you to deceive yourself into thinking you're listening to increased levels of musicality when you listen to vinyl. < <
that we vinyl advocates are all deceiving ourselves because we can't hear differences between colorations and true musicality, as tho none of us have ever heard (or played) a live instrument before ...
> > As stated the perceived rounder warmer fuller sound you are hearing is really nothing more than colorations overshadowing the distortions and much of the music too. < <
Blanket statements such as yours, painting ALL vinyl with one distorted brush, ... much like those who paint all digital with a similar/different brush ... only prove the author to be ignorant, isolated, and totally misinformed.
tb1
Really?
oh well, so looking forward to your next "vinyl vs digital" lecture ...
vinyl vs digital lecture? Hardly. If you paid any attention, you should have noticed my comments had to do with both vinyl vs digital and I essentially said the same about both.
Others probably picked up on that but you didn't.
You asked if I thought you were stupid. Now you tell me.
> > I just don't want you to deceive yourself into thinking you're listening to increased levels of musicality when you listen to vinyl. < <
+
> > As stated the perceived rounder warmer fuller sound you are hearing is really nothing more than colorations overshadowing the distortions and much of the music too. < <
of your own "deceptions" ...
Very good T-bone.
Now go to my previous posts or the last sentence of one of those posts.
Do you know what "pick your poison" means?
Here's a guy poo-poo'ing digital while claiming his vinyl is superior.
I'm saying in and of themselves, both formats lack tremendous amounts of musicality.
And I'd also venture that if anybody had even a reasonable understanding of live music and even a reasonable understanding of reproduced music even our best SOTA-level playback systems, they too would say, both formats lack tremendous amounts of musicality.
How is that so hard to understand? Unless of course, you don't believe that fact of life.
> > Do you know what "pick your poison" means? < <
no, I'm the stupid one ... remember ...
> > I'm saying in and of themselves, both formats lack tremendous amounts of musicality. < <
Totally disagree; if what you claim is true, why would ANY audiophile pursue this hobby?
Back on point; despite your shell-game replies (& lack of accountability); you stated vinyl advocates inability to differentiate musicality vs distortions, as basically nothing more than us fooling ourselves into deception.
In other words, we're all too stupid to comprehend these differences, yet you're not ...
> > Do you know what "pick your poison" means? < <Q. no, I'm the stupid one ... remember ...?
A. You certainly know yourself better than I. I figure when a stranger repeatedly tells me they are stupid, why would I not believe him?
As for the inability of some-to-many (not all) to distinguish between levels of musicality and levels of distortion, well, that is certainly true. Especially when the most severe distortions are inaudible. But that's obviously over your head. Maybe you can get one one of your latex, er vinyl buddies to explain it to you.
Edits: 03/24/15
facetious ... mean anything to you?> > As for the inability of some-to-many (not all) to distinguish between levels of musicality and levels of distortion, well, that is certainly true. Especially when the most severe distortions are inaudible. But that's obviously over your head. Maybe you can get one one of your latex, er vinyl buddies to explain it to you. < <
Over MY head?
C'mon ... my analog experiences are long documented here. You on the other hand, have NEVER participated on vinyl. You don't even have a turntable in your system, yet, somehow, you feel we should defer to your knowledge/experiences (or major lack off) ...
Look, I'm able to list many instances in which your "vinyl is coloured" theory holds true. I have that "hands-on" experience, decades worth! I understand the variables ...
You?
Anyway ... I would never claim those particular experiences as a blanket statement defining analog as a whole, which you did. Please backup that statement with actual fact, and experience ... then, perhaps ... we can better determine "stupidity" ...
tb1
Edits: 03/25/15
T-Bone, why do you think all of your vast amount of documented analog experience is worth anything? Seriously.
But since you own a Foundation Research LC-1, old and outdated and underperforming that it is compared to their latest versions, not to mention that at least your dabbling with some forms of vibration control, etc, for those things you deserve a level of respect.
So you have decades worth of hands-on experience? And you understand the variable, eh?
Fine. What has your decades of experience got you from a performance perspective? In the end and at best, isn't it just another me-too system one can hear in 8 dozen rooms at an audio show?
And exactly what are the primary "variables" as you call them that matter first and foremost in any given system?
... because once again, you're unable to defend your own dribble.
> > But since you own a Foundation Research LC-1, old and outdated and underperforming that it is compared to their latest versions, not to mention that at least your dabbling with some forms of vibration control, etc, for those things you deserve a level of respect. < <
Well, thanks, however, "respect" and ACTUAL experience go hand-in-hand, rendering your "respect" for me meaningless.
OK, lets see, who should I believe, should I believe Ed (FR owner/designer), who PERSONALLY updated my units based on my specific gear, at his farmhouse, where we discussed the upgrades/units in question, plus any future/reversal possibility (just in case it didn't work out) ...
or should I again defer to your OBVIOUS inexperience, simply because you attended a few highly compromised audio-shows ... and ... Bingo! Suddenly! Magically! you're able to quantum leap any actual reality barrier, allowing you the privilege to make STUPID blanket statements based on nothing more than foot-in-mouth disease.
I can't defend my own dribble? Well, so much for my attempts at diplomacy.
So you know Ed, eh? I never really knew him but we've exchanged correspondence a few times and we have a mutual close friend at MFDistribution. What's he up to these days?
Through MFD, I sold FR LC's out of the home some years ago. Without doubt, Ed is a genius, and I understand his preamps and amps were quite special as well. But that genius is still confined to a scope. For example, as I recall Ed does not believe that power cables can enhance performance, nor does he believe in electrical burn-in. It's been a while so please feel free to confirm these things with him as I certainly do not wish to speak inaccurately.
So let's see. Without touching Ed's fabulous internal technology, several years ago I was able to what seemed to double the performance of his already somewhat phenomenal LC-10's and LC-100's. 18 months ago, I did another tweak to his LC's and experienced a reasonable gain with each LC. Last fall, I went to the extreme and over a period of time encountered no less than 20 more additional audible bumps in his LCs' performance and several of those bumps were significant. I know zero about electronics so these were not genius moves on my part, only what if's that turned out to work well.
Back in 2011 I exhibited at 3 audio shows around the country and at each show the most common statement made by visitors was that we had the best sound the visitor ever heard or best sound at the show. There's barely a trickle of this evidence on the internet.
My system at that time was only $40k retail but at a show would match or exceed the performance of perhaps any other exhibiting a SOTA-level playback system.
Why? Primarily due to the performance of Ed's FR LC's. Since my own mtg'er product takes several months minimum to break in so under show conditions my own product is only exhibiting maybe 3% of its full potential which is still quite a large gain from a "high-end" audio perspective.
Let's see. Beside that, when my technology was still in its infancy and even at that time my one and only customer Audio Exotics of Hong Kong deemed my product their greatest find in recent years and can be found in their forum on their website and they represent some of the most expensive gear in the industry (including $50k line conditioners of which I'm sure Ed's re better). Oh yeah, on the very first day AE installed my product and before any break in whatsoever, on their forum, they reached out to their friend Mr. Yamada (sp) in Japan who is the President and chief designer at Zanden, urging him to fly out immediately if he wants to hear his own gear in a way even he the designer has ever heard. And as far as I know, they still have my product in each of their two $500k showroom systems. It's just a shame those versions are only about 25% of the musical potential of my later versions.
If my product had 2 months of break-in prior to a show, there should not be a system anywhere at that show or anywhere else for that matter that could remotely approach its level of musicality.
Not only can I defend my own dribble, I can back up everything I say by demonstrating all of this and more on a playback system where the primary components (source, amps, and speakers) retail for only $10k.
But I digress. Besides, I'd much rather get back to all of your well-documented vinyl experiences over the past few decades.
> > I can't defend my own dribble? Well, so much for my attempts at diplomacy. < <
let me remind you of your prior defense/"diplomatic" behavior ...
"Maybe you can get one one of your latex, er vinyl buddies to explain it to you."
You should address vinyl directly: "inform" everyone there on how they're deceiving themselves. Oh, don't forget to mention your "comprehensive" vinyl experience. If anyone takes issue, point to their latex buddies.
> > I know zero about electronics so these were not genius moves on my part < <
Hey, don't sell yourself short by limiting your "genius" to only electronics.
I rest my case.
Rest your case? It seems you don't even know enough about industry performance to realize you never had a case to argue.
At your level of playback I'm not surprised that you continue trying to drag me into a digital vs analog (vinyl) debate. But what you also fail to see at your level is that both formats are quite inferior.
You invoke way too much opportunity for mental masturbation here. You having nothing new to say for 20 years except the same ol' vinyl is better than digital drivel with your "well-documented" vinyl rants and me attempting to address people like you with minds like yours that are confined to tiny performance sandboxes.
Why not share one of your "well-documented" vinyl statements here?
Oh, last time I listened to vinyl was 3 years ago at a distributor's home on his $300k showroom system and about $250k spent on his gaudy room. This distributor routinely get's write ups from reviewers visiting singing his praises and talking about this level of performance is only attainable by spending this level of money.
Frankly, it sounded like crap but he was mighty proud of the sound as I'm sure you would be too. Whereas I'm too embarrassed to even say I was there.
> > At your level of playback I'm not surprised that you continue trying to drag me into a digital vs analog (vinyl) debate. < <
Child, you dragged yourself in ...
In just one of your imbecilic posts you used the terms
stupid, inexperienced, dribble, meaningless, foot-in-mouth disease, silly, quantum leap reality barriers,
And you call me a child?
Let's be frank with one another here, TBone.
You claim to have many well-documented vinyl experiences and you claim to have decades of experience with audio playback systems.
1. Looking at your system profile the other day, as I recall the only piece noteworthy was the LC-1 and it's good to know Ed customized it to bring it to another level. But even one superior LC for that matter will not compensate for your system config.
2. Well-documented vinyl experiences. What the frick is that supposed to mean to anybody? But that reminds me, I'm thinking of documenting some of my experiences over the years with ice-cream.
3. Your claims of having decades of experience with audio as if that means anything, indicates to me that you must think hacks and bush-leaguers only exist on other planets. Surely you must be aware that there are bush-league lawyers, doctors, scientists, mechanics, etc all who claim to have decades of experience. From what I can tell percentage-wise there are perhaps more hacks and bush-leaguers in "high-end" audio than any other industry I'm aware of, Many enthusiasts even less knowledgeable than you will claim to be audio experts simply because they have a playback system that's better than an am/fm clock radio.
And with your many well-documented vinyl experiences and your "decades of experience" that obviously got you nowhere, I already have a pretty good idea which category you belong to.
But until you provide a single "well-documented vinyl experience" or share what your vast experience has taught you, I'm left to just speculate that your vast experiences were no more than what a 10-year could experience and hence, a complete waste of time.
Stehno and T-bone,
Very interesting correspondence, really something else, but still have no answer what to do about the lousy sound of digital.
If there is no solution, no secret recipe, then I give away all my CD's and stick to my vinyl.
Will you guys please go get a room.
:)
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