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Hifi doesn't exsist. CD/Vinyl as an artform in itself is oke, call it EntertainmentFi.
After 25 years of collecting CD's and endless upgrading CD players my conclusion is that DIGITAL, including SACD lacks something: the sound of the instruments and vocals are there but not with the lifelike beautifull coloring, sound, timbre of the originals. All violins, all piano's sounds the same. Vocals have no feeling.
If you want that only analogue can provide that. Sit back and relax like I do with analogue vinyl isn't possible with digital. The magic responsible for really enjoying the music and timbre isn't there.
I understand that many younger folks listen casually to Spotify and that sort of providers, don't buy CD's anymore (loudness !). So definitive the end of an era is near.
That's all.
Follow Ups:
although it took you 25 years to come to this "realization", you only required 20+ posts to tell us ...
hell, why waste time?
There are LOTS of vinyl records which are unlistenable due to sound quality - whether excessive pops and clicks, limited frequency range, poor EQ, surface noise, etc.
Similarly, a lot of CDs and DVDs are unlistenable due to sound quality, but, often, for different reasons.
I have heard piss-poor LPs and piss-poor CDs, as well as excellent LPs and excellent CDs.
I'll post again shortly in the exchange between you and Stehno.
:)
Inmate, I know, from the end of the fifties on.
Just compare quality releases of the same recording on vinyl (45, 33, even 78)
with their counterparts on CD. CD's after +/- 1995 lifted the RMS power and suffer compression in my opinion to compensate for the lousy resolution at lower levels. Not HiFi anymore. Pre 1995 : CD's most are better, good dynamics, but no lifelike timbre/bloom because of low resolution low level signals, i.e. higher frequencies/harmonics. So CD's are INFERIOR regardless of playback gear , quality label or modern mastering techniques, this last is no HiFi , no dynamics.Of course it's my conclusion and the reason for the thread is: now what to do about it, I wondered if someone had a solution, some magic trick etc,against my scepsis. Mr Stehno's solutions are not relevant, even knowing better I already did that kind of things.
So, unfortunately the end of an era was the advent of digital. A good convenient format for the car, internet streaming, even at home but not imo and experience for music to enjoy.
Edits: 03/23/15
This is mostly incorrect as far as I am concerned , what type of music do you listen to ?
Disbeliever, music is music, taste is taste and is irrelevant.
I know some modern music like metal, disco, hardrock sounds lousy, that's for the kids, they think it's cool.
I am fond of 50-ties Bluegrass, Rock and Roll, Country, and Classical, pianoconcerts, violinconcerts, opera. Too much to mention. But irrelevant, there is no music that sounds especially good on CD or vinyl or tape, music is music, format doesn't matter.
Was that the purpose of your question ? Thanks for your response.
I listen mainly to Classical music on CD & mch SACD and do not experience your complaint which I find to be totally absurd, I enjoy my Hi-Fi hobby and have done so for more than 50 years .
Edits: 03/23/15
Disbeliever,
By the way multichannel is not HiFi, it's a special effect. I consider stereo also a special effect. There are less dynamics because to prevent the ping-pong effect dynamics must be compressed. The reverb and it's phase effect are annoying for me. (in reality the ear/brain focus on the music, not on the reverb, that's a natural phenominon. Reverb via loudspeakers can't be filtered out by the brain, you're obliged to hear it constantly, I think it's unnatural)
We differ obviously, I grew up with mono, class A amplifier (EL84) and 1 loudspeaker, never had any issues regrading listening fatigue or whatever.
Than came the drawback's : stereo, quadro, transistoramplifiers, cassettes, CD, DVD, multichannel, compression be it data or dynamics.
But you have no problems, that's fine, also luckey guy. You focus on the music I presume and forget about distracting things. Perhaps I have to learn that.
Huubdas I find your posts very very strange I also grew up with mono 78,s, & valves Quad, Leak, Radford however I did not like cassettes. I use the Sony XA5400ES player together with the Sony DA5400ES AVR UK version with HATS Jitter free HDMI, I use the pre-out of the receiver into the Arcam P49 power amp ( first 50 watts cool Class A) for front speakers, receiver excellent for centre & rear speakers.
Edits: 03/24/15 03/24/15 03/24/15 03/24/15 03/24/15
Never mind.
Lucky guy then.
Vinyl is the best format for many music lovers like me despite it's shortcomings, carefull handling is necessary, but that goes for CD's too.
It's all for the music and digital is a disappointment for me. (after 25 years of stubborn disbelieve)
What CD player do you use ?
IMO, hi-fi is sure to make a comeback someday - maybe in the not-too-distant future? If flat and uninteresting sound finally overwhelms the public subconscious, the crackle and sparkle of "hifi" might once again stand forth like a golden phallic symbol in a desert of impotence.
But, things won't necessarily be just the same as in the old days. Most likely, very sophisticated recording techniques and equally sophisticated headphone systems will replace the loudspeaker systems of antiquity.
My Spotify collection has matched my CD collection in terms of "Volumes" in just 9 months - Still a bit to go until I match my Vinyl. It is shared across multiple platforms - including my "high end" HT system. I am listening to music more and have been "invited" to listen to a lot more music and interpretations than ever (I have 16 different renditions of "House of the Rising Sun" for example - check out Joan Baez's version please!). The all sound better than FM radio I use to listen when I started the hobby. Better imaging better depth. I still notice the difference in most cases compared to CD. But I consider the differences small - as I still get the image. No stores <12/month? In 1980 I use to spend $100/week on Vinyl! The boxes in my basement are proof of that.
To me the the worry is the lack of depth in new recordings. mixed more for tone than dynamics - that is what gives you the "Flatness" you hear. not the 320MBS MP3.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Excellent points all around guys-
OP look into power line conditioning for openers. Where are you located?
Would you mind sharing details of your system/s? I have experienced many systems like you say, but not all. My current system is nothing like that, but it is atypical of most you would find in your usual boutique.
Cheers.
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki
The only plug and play thing, also my favorite, is Magnepan MG-1c. Because the sound is sweet, low/mid and high the same principle, coherent as some say.
CD and amplifiers tweaked, now my favorite: Leak stereo20 without feedback, Amp switchable to a custom class A solid state with minimum feedback. and a Philips CD 723 with valve output instead of opamp's.
Best of all is the valve output tweak of 2 CD players. Recommended.
Never listening above 85 to 90 dB.
Plug and play players, amp's and loudspeakers also, but not very satisfying.
Unfortunately my reference is concerts, opera and my own piano and guitar (not professional but satisfies myself, not the neighbours)
My reference is always live unamplified classical music, I can understand from your equipment list your problem.
You almost had me agreeing with you with that "hi-fi doesn't exist" and the "entertainmentfi" thing.
That is until you made that silly statement that those things can be found in analog which is when you exposed yourself as not having a clue what you're talking about.
Real high-fidelity, the ability to get infinitely closer toward the absolute sound, does exist and it is attainable via a playback system, though it's almost a guaranetee you (and others) will never hear it.
Stehno, you seem to know the answer to my problem.
1. Why can't I stand CD's or DVD's for a month after a classical concert or opera?
2. Why can I enjoy vinyl or reel to reel the next day, shivers down the spine and enjoy the full bloom of the music/vocals/instruments ?
3. What is wrong with me or what is wrong with my CD player(s) ?
Do you have a secret digital setup ? Please tell me details, I want that too.
After 25 years of tweaking/buying/frustration/spending a digital setup I am so curious. (various high end loudspeakers, Magnepan's, solid state class A amp's and the best valve amp's in my room and my ears still like that of a bat)
I agree with you, huubdas. I have the same problem with digital.
I have no problem with digital done correctly, my concern is overpriced rip-off analogue & digital, I can never understand why folks lack commonsense and throw money away on so-called High End Audio, it seems they are buying appearance and not SQ which they fail to understand you can not change the laws of physics. do not be misled by the reviewers you always have to listen for yourself. Incidently infrastructure in UK is much older than in the US.
Edits: 03/22/15 03/22/15 03/22/15
I started listening closely to music in the mid 50s when there was only "hi fi". I loved certain musicians and knew I wasnt hearing everything they were doing and started buying equipment, saving and moving up to really hear their music. I've finally got a system that a long trained ear gives me everything I can reasonable (and financially) expect:
Nottingham 294 table and arm with motorcontroller, Ortofon Black Credenza, Einstein Turntables Choice phono pre; C-J CT 5 preamp; Quicksilver monoamps; Ayon cd player plus casette player and Elite fm tuner and Reference 3A Grand Veena speakers. I use a Haley power conditioner but not for the amps which are plugged into the outlets straight. The whole is on its own circuit and used with an Environmental Potential whole house protector. That EP unit made a HUGE difference in the sound of my system The Ayon 07s is a digtital wonder but not quite as good as the Nott.
Edits: 03/22/15
Mr. Curl, nice to hear that, I started to believe I was the only one.
The big question: what to do next ? Tranquilizers before listening to CD's ?
Half a bottle of wine ? Cottonwoolplugs in the ears ?
Just joking a bit, but not so bad after all perhaps.
Before reaching for the medication, perhaps you should share with John my other notes.
But then again, Mr. Curl and I went over this a few years ago.
Sorry Mr Stehno, I don't hear benefits of powerline cleaning. Some High End Players running on batteries, no difference. Power supply's tweaked, absolute clean: no difference.
No, there is one solution: medication (valium, valerian, mariehuana), booze, wetted cottonwoolearplugs. Just like discofreaks at discoconcerts.
For the necessary daily musical entertainment I stick with my old vinyl.
I'm too old, it's time for music, not for toying with crappy format's like CD and DVD.
Well, I'm certainly not going to question whether or not you're too old. But you're obviously troubled with just listening to music, otherwise I have to assumeing you would have been listeing to music instead of opening this thread.
That's fine. I just don't want you to deceive yourself into thinking you're listening to increased levels of musicality when you listen to vinyl.
As stated the perceived rounder warmer fuller sound you are hearing is really nothing more than colorations overshadowing the distortions and much of the music too.
Surely you must know that perceived sense of increased musicality comes at a price. Without properly addressing universal distortions that plague every system regardless of format, it's really just pick your poison.
> > I just don't want you to deceive yourself into thinking you're listening to increased levels of musicality when you listen to vinyl. < <
that we vinyl advocates are all deceiving ourselves because we can't hear differences between colorations and true musicality, as tho none of us have ever heard (or played) a live instrument before ...
> > As stated the perceived rounder warmer fuller sound you are hearing is really nothing more than colorations overshadowing the distortions and much of the music too. < <
Blanket statements such as yours, painting ALL vinyl with one distorted brush, ... much like those who paint all digital with a similar/different brush ... only prove the author to be ignorant, isolated, and totally misinformed.
tb1
Really?
oh well, so looking forward to your next "vinyl vs digital" lecture ...
vinyl vs digital lecture? Hardly. If you paid any attention, you should have noticed my comments had to do with both vinyl vs digital and I essentially said the same about both.
Others probably picked up on that but you didn't.
You asked if I thought you were stupid. Now you tell me.
> > I just don't want you to deceive yourself into thinking you're listening to increased levels of musicality when you listen to vinyl. < <
+
> > As stated the perceived rounder warmer fuller sound you are hearing is really nothing more than colorations overshadowing the distortions and much of the music too. < <
of your own "deceptions" ...
Very good T-bone.
Now go to my previous posts or the last sentence of one of those posts.
Do you know what "pick your poison" means?
Here's a guy poo-poo'ing digital while claiming his vinyl is superior.
I'm saying in and of themselves, both formats lack tremendous amounts of musicality.
And I'd also venture that if anybody had even a reasonable understanding of live music and even a reasonable understanding of reproduced music even our best SOTA-level playback systems, they too would say, both formats lack tremendous amounts of musicality.
How is that so hard to understand? Unless of course, you don't believe that fact of life.
> > Do you know what "pick your poison" means? < <
no, I'm the stupid one ... remember ...
> > I'm saying in and of themselves, both formats lack tremendous amounts of musicality. < <
Totally disagree; if what you claim is true, why would ANY audiophile pursue this hobby?
Back on point; despite your shell-game replies (& lack of accountability); you stated vinyl advocates inability to differentiate musicality vs distortions, as basically nothing more than us fooling ourselves into deception.
In other words, we're all too stupid to comprehend these differences, yet you're not ...
> > Do you know what "pick your poison" means? < <Q. no, I'm the stupid one ... remember ...?
A. You certainly know yourself better than I. I figure when a stranger repeatedly tells me they are stupid, why would I not believe him?
As for the inability of some-to-many (not all) to distinguish between levels of musicality and levels of distortion, well, that is certainly true. Especially when the most severe distortions are inaudible. But that's obviously over your head. Maybe you can get one one of your latex, er vinyl buddies to explain it to you.
Edits: 03/24/15
facetious ... mean anything to you?> > As for the inability of some-to-many (not all) to distinguish between levels of musicality and levels of distortion, well, that is certainly true. Especially when the most severe distortions are inaudible. But that's obviously over your head. Maybe you can get one one of your latex, er vinyl buddies to explain it to you. < <
Over MY head?
C'mon ... my analog experiences are long documented here. You on the other hand, have NEVER participated on vinyl. You don't even have a turntable in your system, yet, somehow, you feel we should defer to your knowledge/experiences (or major lack off) ...
Look, I'm able to list many instances in which your "vinyl is coloured" theory holds true. I have that "hands-on" experience, decades worth! I understand the variables ...
You?
Anyway ... I would never claim those particular experiences as a blanket statement defining analog as a whole, which you did. Please backup that statement with actual fact, and experience ... then, perhaps ... we can better determine "stupidity" ...
tb1
Edits: 03/25/15
T-Bone, why do you think all of your vast amount of documented analog experience is worth anything? Seriously.
But since you own a Foundation Research LC-1, old and outdated and underperforming that it is compared to their latest versions, not to mention that at least your dabbling with some forms of vibration control, etc, for those things you deserve a level of respect.
So you have decades worth of hands-on experience? And you understand the variable, eh?
Fine. What has your decades of experience got you from a performance perspective? In the end and at best, isn't it just another me-too system one can hear in 8 dozen rooms at an audio show?
And exactly what are the primary "variables" as you call them that matter first and foremost in any given system?
... because once again, you're unable to defend your own dribble.
> > But since you own a Foundation Research LC-1, old and outdated and underperforming that it is compared to their latest versions, not to mention that at least your dabbling with some forms of vibration control, etc, for those things you deserve a level of respect. < <
Well, thanks, however, "respect" and ACTUAL experience go hand-in-hand, rendering your "respect" for me meaningless.
OK, lets see, who should I believe, should I believe Ed (FR owner/designer), who PERSONALLY updated my units based on my specific gear, at his farmhouse, where we discussed the upgrades/units in question, plus any future/reversal possibility (just in case it didn't work out) ...
or should I again defer to your OBVIOUS inexperience, simply because you attended a few highly compromised audio-shows ... and ... Bingo! Suddenly! Magically! you're able to quantum leap any actual reality barrier, allowing you the privilege to make STUPID blanket statements based on nothing more than foot-in-mouth disease.
I can't defend my own dribble? Well, so much for my attempts at diplomacy.
So you know Ed, eh? I never really knew him but we've exchanged correspondence a few times and we have a mutual close friend at MFDistribution. What's he up to these days?
Through MFD, I sold FR LC's out of the home some years ago. Without doubt, Ed is a genius, and I understand his preamps and amps were quite special as well. But that genius is still confined to a scope. For example, as I recall Ed does not believe that power cables can enhance performance, nor does he believe in electrical burn-in. It's been a while so please feel free to confirm these things with him as I certainly do not wish to speak inaccurately.
So let's see. Without touching Ed's fabulous internal technology, several years ago I was able to what seemed to double the performance of his already somewhat phenomenal LC-10's and LC-100's. 18 months ago, I did another tweak to his LC's and experienced a reasonable gain with each LC. Last fall, I went to the extreme and over a period of time encountered no less than 20 more additional audible bumps in his LCs' performance and several of those bumps were significant. I know zero about electronics so these were not genius moves on my part, only what if's that turned out to work well.
Back in 2011 I exhibited at 3 audio shows around the country and at each show the most common statement made by visitors was that we had the best sound the visitor ever heard or best sound at the show. There's barely a trickle of this evidence on the internet.
My system at that time was only $40k retail but at a show would match or exceed the performance of perhaps any other exhibiting a SOTA-level playback system.
Why? Primarily due to the performance of Ed's FR LC's. Since my own mtg'er product takes several months minimum to break in so under show conditions my own product is only exhibiting maybe 3% of its full potential which is still quite a large gain from a "high-end" audio perspective.
Let's see. Beside that, when my technology was still in its infancy and even at that time my one and only customer Audio Exotics of Hong Kong deemed my product their greatest find in recent years and can be found in their forum on their website and they represent some of the most expensive gear in the industry (including $50k line conditioners of which I'm sure Ed's re better). Oh yeah, on the very first day AE installed my product and before any break in whatsoever, on their forum, they reached out to their friend Mr. Yamada (sp) in Japan who is the President and chief designer at Zanden, urging him to fly out immediately if he wants to hear his own gear in a way even he the designer has ever heard. And as far as I know, they still have my product in each of their two $500k showroom systems. It's just a shame those versions are only about 25% of the musical potential of my later versions.
If my product had 2 months of break-in prior to a show, there should not be a system anywhere at that show or anywhere else for that matter that could remotely approach its level of musicality.
Not only can I defend my own dribble, I can back up everything I say by demonstrating all of this and more on a playback system where the primary components (source, amps, and speakers) retail for only $10k.
But I digress. Besides, I'd much rather get back to all of your well-documented vinyl experiences over the past few decades.
> > I can't defend my own dribble? Well, so much for my attempts at diplomacy. < <
let me remind you of your prior defense/"diplomatic" behavior ...
"Maybe you can get one one of your latex, er vinyl buddies to explain it to you."
You should address vinyl directly: "inform" everyone there on how they're deceiving themselves. Oh, don't forget to mention your "comprehensive" vinyl experience. If anyone takes issue, point to their latex buddies.
> > I know zero about electronics so these were not genius moves on my part < <
Hey, don't sell yourself short by limiting your "genius" to only electronics.
I rest my case.
Rest your case? It seems you don't even know enough about industry performance to realize you never had a case to argue.
At your level of playback I'm not surprised that you continue trying to drag me into a digital vs analog (vinyl) debate. But what you also fail to see at your level is that both formats are quite inferior.
You invoke way too much opportunity for mental masturbation here. You having nothing new to say for 20 years except the same ol' vinyl is better than digital drivel with your "well-documented" vinyl rants and me attempting to address people like you with minds like yours that are confined to tiny performance sandboxes.
Why not share one of your "well-documented" vinyl statements here?
Oh, last time I listened to vinyl was 3 years ago at a distributor's home on his $300k showroom system and about $250k spent on his gaudy room. This distributor routinely get's write ups from reviewers visiting singing his praises and talking about this level of performance is only attainable by spending this level of money.
Frankly, it sounded like crap but he was mighty proud of the sound as I'm sure you would be too. Whereas I'm too embarrassed to even say I was there.
> > At your level of playback I'm not surprised that you continue trying to drag me into a digital vs analog (vinyl) debate. < <
Child, you dragged yourself in ...
In just one of your imbecilic posts you used the terms
stupid, inexperienced, dribble, meaningless, foot-in-mouth disease, silly, quantum leap reality barriers,
And you call me a child?
Let's be frank with one another here, TBone.
You claim to have many well-documented vinyl experiences and you claim to have decades of experience with audio playback systems.
1. Looking at your system profile the other day, as I recall the only piece noteworthy was the LC-1 and it's good to know Ed customized it to bring it to another level. But even one superior LC for that matter will not compensate for your system config.
2. Well-documented vinyl experiences. What the frick is that supposed to mean to anybody? But that reminds me, I'm thinking of documenting some of my experiences over the years with ice-cream.
3. Your claims of having decades of experience with audio as if that means anything, indicates to me that you must think hacks and bush-leaguers only exist on other planets. Surely you must be aware that there are bush-league lawyers, doctors, scientists, mechanics, etc all who claim to have decades of experience. From what I can tell percentage-wise there are perhaps more hacks and bush-leaguers in "high-end" audio than any other industry I'm aware of, Many enthusiasts even less knowledgeable than you will claim to be audio experts simply because they have a playback system that's better than an am/fm clock radio.
And with your many well-documented vinyl experiences and your "decades of experience" that obviously got you nowhere, I already have a pretty good idea which category you belong to.
But until you provide a single "well-documented vinyl experience" or share what your vast experience has taught you, I'm left to just speculate that your vast experiences were no more than what a 10-year could experience and hence, a complete waste of time.
Stehno and T-bone,
Very interesting correspondence, really something else, but still have no answer what to do about the lousy sound of digital.
If there is no solution, no secret recipe, then I give away all my CD's and stick to my vinyl.
Will you guys please go get a room.
:)
Learn to accept reproduced music for what it is.
"After 25 years of tweaking/buying/frustration/spending a digital setup I am so curious. (various high end loudspeakers, Magnepan's, solid state class A amp's and the best valve amp's in my room and my ears still like that of a bat)"
25 years is a long time to go without audio therapy. Best of luck.
Soulfood, I accepted reproduced music for more than 45 years and call it " entertainment-FI" because it is't the real thing, more an artform on it's own.
That's oke, but digital hurts my ears and brain.
I just want to know the goeroe's digital gear or secrets, they all swear digital is good, but until now NO SATIFYING ANSWER.
I have no idea what your system config, consists of, well except for the Magnepans, but here goes.
Answer for 1 and 2. If it's true you can't stand your CD's or DVD's for a month of a classical concert or opera, it most likely is due to the following reasons:
a. your digital is more revealing than your analog. If this is the case and since a revealing component is indiscriminate about what it reveals, then along with revealing more musical detail your digital is also revealing more of the universal distortions inherent in every system which quickly leads to ear fatigue. For most, 15% more distortions easily can overshadow 15% more music.
b. your digital is less revealing than your analog, in which case more flat, 2-D, less engaging, etc, and hence, boring.
But since your system is no different than everybody else's as they are all overwhelmed with universal distortions, whichever system is more revealing, we're basically splitting hairs as one is just a tad more "musical" than the other and it's only your love for music that keeps you coming back for more with the analog because its slightly rounder, softer, "warmer", less detailed presentation is less offensive and therefore is interpreted as a bit more musical to you.
3. I'd guess much of the musical potential is most likely already embedded in your CDP but with distortions (whether analog or digital) that induce the ear fatigue that you're probably experiencing. Most likely, your analog along with the valves are rounding off the sharper notes so that you don't wince as much as with your digital. You're hearing less of the note and as a result you're hearing less beaming of the note racing toward your ear like a laser.
What you may not know is that the worst distortions which we all face are not audible. In fact, they simply raise the noise floor to such an extent that you're only hearing a small percentage of the music embedded in the recording (whether digital or analog). I would guess the percentage of music embedded in a given recording that remains audible is perhaps somewhere in the 35-55% range. That implies that you're also only hearing the same percentage of every single note as well. I suspect that's why piano is known to be the most difficult instrument to reproduce. It's a percussive instrument and it doesn't take much volume on a few hammers at the higher registers to cause somebody to run from the room. That's an excellent example of the partially audible note making a bee-line straight for your ear.
Choral and opera are also known to be the most difficult music types (some call it the most torturous). As a result of the sustained voices (only hearing partial notes) leading to immediate breakup and flattening out, as do some complex orchestral pieces.
My hunch is, your analog and valves seem more musical but I would guess that since they most likely provide a slightly rounder and "warmer" presentation (a perverted view of the live performance) that you're hearing, you've convinced yourself the analog is superior when it's actually less musical (less of the music), but since it's more palatable, you're less likely to run out of your room with your ears bleeding, hence it must be more musical.
But it also depends on your preferred listening volume. Since "audiophiles" have trained themselves well to listen at far lower listening levels, both digital and analog can be somewhat enjoyable or palatable. But then we're getting closer toward the elevator music thing which certainly has nothing to do with live music, but then again, we can listen to it all day long.
--------------------------------------------
Case-in-point. It's not my best example nor is it the worst distortion, but it works well. Noisy AC coming in from the street induces quite a bit of sonic harm into every playback system. Even in those who claim universal AC noise does not affect them.
Some years ago, to fund an R&D project, I was an at-home dealer. My inventory included, Esoteric, nuforce, Legacy, Foundation Research, Furutech, and a handful of other products.
At that time the nuforce amps were quite musical compared to much of the competition, especially for their price. In every case, if I sent out a pair of amps for audition, if the customer did not employ proper line conditioning to cleanse or purify the noisy AC, they returned the amps claiming the amps were too harsh, brittle, bright, overly detailed, etc.
Well, there is no such thing as overly detailed, but that's another topic. But those customers who DID employ proper or superior line conditioning or perhaps I loaned them some Foundation Research line conditioners, in every case they purchased the nuforce amps, and if the Foundation Research line conditioners were loaners, they purchased them as well.
Now I'm only talking 8 - 10 cases total, but it was clear that without enhanced detail being properly nurtured, nobody had any interest in a more revealing product. It hurt their ears too much and It was less "musical" to them.
Noisy AC is just one of several universal distortions and a lesser one at that. But with that one distortion alone, I'll bet dollars to donuts you do not employ proper or superior line conditioning. Otherwise you would not have posted your message.
Every power conditioner I have tried degrades the sound, I must have a very good mains supply no AC noise.
That's because most line conditioners aren't worth owning.I won't get into it here, but unlike the typical electronic component, many of which bring competitive sonic benefits, finding a superior line conditioner that actually works and without inducing its own harm is quite a bit like searching for a needle in a haystack.
That's why whenever I mention line conditioning I always use the adjective "proper" or "superior" to always imply there are improper and inferior line conditioners to avoid.
Foundation Research was at the top of the heap. But Foundation Research has now been defunct for several years. Jena Labs makes fabulous line conditioners and I'm sure there's a few other mfg'ers making superior line conditioners, but it isn't many.
The sad part of this is it seems the more popular the mtg'er the more inferior the line conditioner. What's worse is that some-to-many try one of these inferior line conditioners by a popular mtg'er and as you've discovered, it actually makes the sound worse by inducing its own sonic harm. Now there's two things that happen with this experience:
1. The user has untrained ears and continues using the inferior line conditioners.
2. Like yourself who has well-enough-trained hearing to know the difference, reject that line conditioner and other similar line conditioners finding your system sounds more musical without "line conditioning" but then you become convinced that ALL line conditioners induce sonic harm and are not worth owning.These are the primary reasons why a coming like Foundation Research closed its doors and why to this day line conditioners remain unpopular.
Then there were the Foundation Research retailers who hooked up these small black boxes to the components in the showroom systems to make the components sound better to sell more components having far greater profit margins. But never mentioning the Foundation Research line conditioners behind the rack.
It's really a shame because the level of musicality improves so much with proper line conditioning that I'd venture it to be perhaps the single greatest improvement the average enthusiast would ever encounter.
I find listening to a system without proper line conditioning is limited to maybe 20 minutes tops before ear fatigue really sets in and I've had enough.
p.s.
I should note that there are a few line conditioners that do absolutely nothing (neither good nor bad) and there are a few line conditioners that actually filter out offending frequencies. The problem with filtering out offending frequencies is that the music in those frequencies is also filtered out.p.s.s.
Last note. Since most do not employ line conditioners and mfg'ers know this. Sometimes a mfg'er will insert a cheap $5 AC filter somewhere between the IEC inlet and the power supply. For those who do not employ proper line conditioning this cheap $5 AC filter can add just enough of an edge over a competing product. The problem with this scenario is, purchasing this fine component with the cheap $5 AC filter may seem satisfactory musically. But the $5 AC filter is not proper line conditioning and for those who own this component and then audition proper line conditioning will most always find the music will sound worse. Why, I don't know but there's something very negative that occurs when two methods of AC filtering/line conditioning are combined.In this case, the enthusiast inserts a superior $1000 line conditioner and because of the $5 AC filter, he rejects the $1000 line conditioner as being sonically worse. Then he goes out to audio forums to announce his findings that the $1000 line conditioner actually made his music sound worse and of course everybody listens to him. Yet, he himself was unaware of the cheap $5 AC filter inside his component that was the real culprit.
Proper line conditioners never stood a chance. Foundation Research was in business for nearly 20 years and as far as I know every reviewer who auditioned the FR line conditioners purchased the review samples. And they still had to close their doors.
Edits: 03/20/15 03/20/15
Nice points- Stehno.
if the OP is living on the grid, as we do not know his locale, then a dedicated line is the 1st consideration.
Thanks, Fantja.However, I must offer a bit of a correction. A dedicated line does nothing to cleanse the noisy AC coming in from the street. A dedicated line from the service panel to the component simply ensures that AC noise coming in from the street is now dedicated to the component plugged into it.
Dedicated lines can reduce noisy AC generated within the house itself, e.g. appliances, dimmers, etc. but supposedly some noises such as bi-directional digital noise will make its way back to the service panel and then induce its noise into other circuits / lines.
All of which a superior line conditioner will or should minimize / resolve.
Thus leaving a dedicated line with only one real purpose, which is to ensure a high-current drawing amplifier has enough juice to sufficiently reproduce the more dynamic and/or complex music passages.
IOW, if one employed proper line conditioning and a low-current-drawing amp, there is no need for dedicated lines, or rather just have one dedicated line for everything.
Edits: 03/20/15
It would appear that US mains power is of poorer quality than that in the UK especially with your brownouts which explains why many US made products especially AR are over fused which degrades SQ.
And exactly what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
AC by its very nature is noisy. It just so happens that the distortions induced by this noise really doesn't matter except in "high-end" audio where it becomes quite prevalent in how it greatly strips away at a recording's level of musicality.
With postings like yours, and with so few even caring about this great distortion, it seems it doesn't matter in "high-end" audio either.
My post is the truth (although I expressed it in a lighthearted way) and is not incompatible with the points you were making. Next time, try not to take yourself so seriously.
Yes, you spoke truth. It's just that there was little relevancy to it.
Perhaps its personal. We all listen at least some what differently with our brains. You shouldn't assume we all perceive the same. I'm sure what you say is true for you. But it isn't for me.
You're assuming that I'm assuming. Please don't do that. :)
There is the live performance or the absolute sound. Whatever your perspective, (seated by the men's restroom or 5th row dead-center), whatever the venue (your garage or the Stanford Church), whatever your hearing abilities (half-deaf or super keen), whatever your brain's interpretation of what you hear, the live performance still remains unchanged.
Anything less than the live performance is wide open for interpretation and opinion. But by no means should that imply that all interpretations and opinions are equal or even valid.
What a dumb ass condescending thing to say - you must be the audio God I never heard of!
nt
Personally I can easily hear more differences between different violins, pianos etc on well-mastered red book CDs or Spotify than I ever managed from analogue.
I quite like vinyl but it does slather everything in its own particular distortions making it all sound quite same-y. Much more so than digital.
It's a Digital world ... it is what it is.Somebody moved your cheese.
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
--Zen Proverb
Edits: 03/19/15
The only constant is change. :)
You obviously do not possess a good mch SACD player etc, All pianos, violins do not sound the same on my set up, plenty of feeling in the vocals as well. I no longer listen to my large vinyl collection.
Since it has become excruciatingly difficult to readily play back music with satisfying sound, people who have never experienced high-fidelity sound reproduction often have a hard time conceptualizing it. It is almost impossible to become interested in something that you can't conceptualize.
In contrast, people who experienced music playback prior to 1980, even those not into audio at all, had no problem conceptualizing high-fidelity sound reproduction. Simply because they were exposed to it. And developed a natural appreciation of it.
Walking into an electronics or music store and hearing high-quality sound reproduction used to be commonplace, but now it's virtually non-existent. (I remember people looking forward to visit a Radio Shack store to check out the audio gear.) Back in the 1950s through early 1980s, people would hear high-fidelity sound reproduction, and gravitate to it. (The music in greater detail was what they actually gravitated to.) They then wanted to get such playback quality in their own homes. (This was how people became audiophiles.) But such allure almost doesn't exist anymore.
Someone recently told me he thought rap music has been popular only because it is the only music genre ever conceived whose ultimate enjoyment wasn't dependent on high-fidelity sound reproduction..........
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