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In Reply to: RE: Going through a divorce posted by navman on March 01, 2015 at 18:47:30
... My own only advice is, as with any business transaction, be honest, be fair, be reasonable, have compassion & empathy.
If you can't have a rational discussion with your wife then you will need a lawyer.
I can't imagine how you will lose any of your audio equipment unless it is the only asset you both have.
Good luck, another adventure is just around the corner.
Smile
Sox
Follow Ups:
People get bitter and petty in a divorce and tend to want to inflict revenge damage on the other side - ESPECIALLY if the divorce stems from cheating.
What I have seen from Divorce is that the only people who tend to WIN are the lawyers. And they tend to win big even if their side loses.
Being petty or vindictive can have you wind up with far less money than you would have gotten if you just split it fairly to start with because with lawyers you'll lose what you would lose anyway and then another 30-40% to the lawyers.
50% of marriages end in divorce - out of the remaining 50% you have to figure at least 50% of that group are in some kind of unhappy union - staying married for religious reasons, or because of kids, or because of finances, or other fears.
So now we're down to about 20-25% probably AT BEST of happy marriages.
Frankly, I prefer dating. Why be stuck with vanilla all your life when you can have Baskin-Robbins?
...because many flavors don't taste very good.
I always get Jamoca Almond Fudge and my wife always gets Strawberry.
I didn't get married until I was 35 so I got all of that need for variety out of my system and figured out what I really wanted.
Been married for 32 years now.
Of course there have been some rocky times but things are better now than they ever have been - some things just improve with age.
I couldn't imagine starting all over.
Each to his own I guess.
While I think each divorce is unique, in my case I found that the lawyers allowed me (and my now ex) to get things drawn up in a way that was final and not really subject to further negotiation down the line. What gets tricky is the splitting of financial assets and debts - and if you have more than a trivial amount of them, a lawyer will allow the split to happen most easily. And if there are kids involved, in my state (NY), you have to go in front of a Judge with the children in a courtroom, who will approve of the custody arrangements. IN my case, no kids, so things were pretty simple and straightforward.My only advice, is treat this as a business arrangement where there is an obligation to split 50-50.
Don't sweat the household stuff - even the stereo. It isn't worth the battle since you will quickly lose the amount you would need to replace the thing if there is a long drawn out court fight.
If you need to value something pick the "average price" from a reputable site, or get a quote to buy it from someone. And be 100% up front about any and all assets. Don't hide anything as that WILL come back and bite you in the a$$. In NY, if your ex finds out about something you have hidden, one court trip and 100% of it goes to the ex that was cheated.
============================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
Edits: 03/02/15
...a mediator is a MUCH less expensive option than a lawyer.
Mediators are all about reaching a fair settlement.
Lawyers are about winning and making the other party lose @ $300/hr.
Actually that is entirely untrue. Probably 95% of our time is babysitting our irrationally, immature, crybaby clients who only want to screw the other making it difficult to come to a cost efficient rationale result. 4% of out time is usually negotiating and mediating when the spouses finally come their senses and the remaining is the legal process, itself.
If you are worried about your stereo, you can easily fall into the above majority. Screw the stereo and think about what is important and necessary in your future to re-establish your life.
When I got divorced, I left about $30k or equipment including electrostatic, Klipsch and JansZen speakers, tube Marantz equipment and other items. I took a set of ADS L300 speakers, McIntosh MR77 tuner and MA6100 amp. Within a couple.lf years I ended up with much of the left behind equipment and a better system and far better wife.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
...but my wife was not open to it.
Not sure if its the same in all states, but in CT you can ....
1. DIY.
2. Mediator.
3. Collaborative. This is with two lawyers, you all sign that you will play nice and be fair. If things don't work out you litigate and must get new lawyers.
4. Cooperative. This is with two lawyers and if things don't work out you litigate but are able to retain your lawyers.
5. Litigate.
CT is not a 50/50 state (wish it was), it is an "Equitable Distribution" state with "equitable" having a lot of latitude.
I called 7 lawyers, interviewed (met with) three. Least expensive was $450/hr, most expensive was $850/hr. Mine was $550/hr and worth it... she was superb.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Eesh I hope she got a LOT done in an hour.
As a side note - I think I'll start looking at the LSAT.
Go for it. I couple of law school mates were there as a result of their divorce. Another, a doctor, was there after being sued for a botched procedure. I was there because a lawyer told me I was "only an accountant" and not qualified to define a term in a document; they disagreed with my definition. A few years later a jury disagreed with their definition and agreed with mine the firm paid out close to $1,000,000.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
I always wished my dad had gone to law school. He was one of those people who remembered 80+% of everything he ever read. So back in the day working for the Canadian government when they allowed you to apply for a job by taking a test on the subject - my dad applied for a managing accounting position against two CGA/CMA holders. My dad was the only one who passed the exam and thus got hired. Today that would not happen because you need the degree in order to be allowed to take the exam and as in your situation he would be deemed "not qualified." People would always go to my dad for law questions as well - I wish I could remember 10% of stuff I read but I have more of a creative bent than my dad possessed.
I might be getting a bit old to start again in another field at this point but I will look into it. I quite enjoyed the business law course I took back in the 90s - it was the only business course I remember enjoying.
...thanks Dean.
I'll keep that in mind if it ever gets to that point, but I think if we were headed in that direction, it would have happened years ago.
A friend of mine has a theory about divorce - he says he just off her, claim it was the heat of passion and get to keep all his stuff.
Afraid my stuff isn't worth that...
Actually, let her make a division of property and you get to pick the pile you want first.
On more than one occasion I suggested this during settlement negotiations and things went pretty smoothly. If there was a dispute about valuation opposing counseling and I would tell our clients were could do an arbitration and the cost under the AAA structure was about $1500 per hour for the panel. Most of the time they came up with agreed to amounts on their own.
I mentioned my settlement system tl a judge one time and he ordered it. I found out later he started ordering it on a number of cases where the spouses could not agree and were going to leave it up to the court.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Wouldn't that be nice !
I wound up on the short end of a 56/44 split after equalization of our 401Ks and have been told by many divorced friends here in CT that I made out like a bandit.
I agree, don't sweat the household stuff. Focus on the big picture and if kids are involved keep them in mind.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Common knowledge proves to be wrong when it comes to divorce statistics. The actual divorce rate is far lower than 50%, which shows how numbers embed themselves as misnomer memes in society, and how people need to be wary of the "everyone knows" type of information.
see link
After decades of misinformation on the topic, people think there is some benefit to cohabitation. In reality, cohabitation brings a slew of difficulties and little additional benefit which could not be obtained in marriage, aside from the tax marriage penalty in America. The disadvantages of cohabitation are not my opinion; they are also documented by sociologists, and anyone can look them up with a simple search on the Net.
Hopefully, in time people will see the good news that marriage is not in as rough condition as thought, and that it resumes its rightful place as a beautiful way to spend one's life. :)
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
But the link you provide unfortunately doesn't provide any actual numbers to prove their case. They seem to be making an assumption about where the stat comes from like 3 million marriages in 1996 and 3 million divorces - that means 50% but that's not where the statistic is coming from albeit it may be an interesting coincidence.The number should not be that hard to find - you calculate all the marriages over say a ten year period and you have to track EACH marriage and if and when they divorce how many years they were married etc. So 1,000,000 marriages over a 50 year period and find out if and when they divorced.
I'm kind of surprised many of the numbers seem a bit wishy washy - perhaps due to people moving out of state etc or privacy issues.
But this has been done to a degree here. It does seem to be getting better though as people are waiting longer and being more SURE of their choice. So that's a positive anyway.
I have to see these numbers were surprising:
"2008 voter data shows that "red" states (states that tend to vote Republican), have higher divorce rates than "blue" states (states that tend to vote Democrat).The Barna Research Group measured divorce statistics by religion. They found that 29 percent of Baptists are divorced (the highest for a US religious group), while only 21 percent of atheists/agnostics were divorced (the lowest)."
Edits: 03/03/15
and you brought up some good ones! :)
You're correct that Christians don't look particularly good in terms of divorce stats. But there is controversy in those numbers as well. Figures, when it comes to such things, there will be very divergent accounts of reality.
How a cohort is defined effects the statistical results. I wondered if there had been discussion of how the "Christian" population was defined in Barna's research, and I found some objecting to it; see link in which research out of the University of Virginia found that Americans who worship regularly several times a month (which sounds like "all the time" to me) had 35% lower divorce rate than those with no religious affiliation.
Figures, eh? Ask one expert and you get this answer, ask another and you get that answer! Almost sounds like Audiophiles!
Either way, divorce is brutal, and I wish for all couples struggling to get counseling and do their utmost to make marriage work.
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
I think the statistics have to come from the census bureau of the government to really carry the best likelihood of objectivity. If a particular group does it whether Christian, Catholic, Atheist there is the chance for "looking for the numbers that support their world view" rather than looking at the numbers and saying "that's the number whether it agrees with my world view or the book I believe in or not."
Statistics are never absolutes anyway - You can have 100 people do a blind level matched preference audition of two loudspeakers and 80% could like speaker A - and only 20% like speaker B. But until YOU do the listening you can't know for sure which speaker you will like only that you are probably more likely to like speaker A. But the people who like speaker B may actually be more experienced audiophiles and may know that over long term listening sessions B is the superior choice and are not tricked by short term wow factor.
And with the issue over marriage - I want to be clear - I am not against marriage but I think there are several reasons that non religious marriages or gay marriages may work over the long term better. One is that in the Atheist's case they're not as pressured into being married. They probably wait a lot longer before they do get married and people change over time - not the same at 40 that you were at 20. But you're probably more "in your own skin" at 35 that you'll be at 85. You'll know better and not be fooled by speaker A or umm woman A. (flash over substance). Gay marriage numbers are probably solid because they had to fight so hard to be allowed to marry that it carries a certain significance not realized by other groups. Although there is also a lot of pressure for them to stay married in order to combat groups that will want to point to poor divorce rates.
And quibbling over some of the statistics is ultimately silly because anyone can point to an Atheist couple and say they've been married for 50 years and a Christian couple that has been married for 50 years. Evidence that it can work. And evidence will point to couples in both groups who got divorced in 1 year as well.
There are also social and cultural pressures. If a person lives in a town where divorce is an absolute no-no and the person attends a church frequently if he divorces he may run the risk of being ostracized by his friends in the church by getting divorced - so he may stay in the marriage longer or forever because he is not just divorcing his wife but possibly divorcing his entire social network. Certain religions have been known to do such things like disowning children or banning people from their church.
An Atheist/Agnostic has no such pressure as his circle of friends are less likely to tell him to stick it out and live unhappily because it's "the thing you're supposed to do." Thus, it makes the decision to divorce generally easier and perhaps more common. That is combated however by also not having the pressure to marry in the first place because "that's the thing you're supposed to do." So I suspect their divorce numbers should ultimately be lower because they'd probably be more sure of their choice be made by them and not external pressures to marry.
What I fear ends up happening with religion and politics is people tend to choose their teams their side and blast eachother - often on things they may even agree upon. Dems and Reps could actually work together in the past and now it's "the other side is always wrong no matter what" merely because it was the other guy who said it. That's not getting any of us very far. And perhaps that is getting into marriages more as well. Any Democrats married to Republicans working out? There was a time that it could - same for a Christian marrying a Jew. Today?
Have to find Baskin Robins vanilla the first time.
Cheers
Bill
... Baskin-Robbins? Good heavens.
I think there is something wrong with even looking for a mass produced offering when there are so many unique offerings right in front of us.
:o)
Smile
Sox
I know many, many folks who just stay married for the children, I am one of them. I stayed the course for the sake of the children, my stereo system, my assets, etc. Simple economics in a business relationship is the only reason that we are "celebrating' our 31st anniversary next week.
I know I am not alone, I've spoken with many, many others who are in the same boat. Happily married is an oxymoron, like Jumbo Shrimp or Army Intelligence. I do agree with three_sox that at some point in the marriage everyone was happy. I can't say all 31 years have been hell. The first 5 years were pretty good.
I have a friend who swears the secret to a happy marriage is that the man has to cheat. That way the man is happier, though he does feel a bit guilty. Therefore he treats his wife better, ergo she is happier.
I never tried this route due to religious beliefs. Perhaps he is right, who knows?
Having lived around the world - those secondary secret relationships are more common.
Sure I think we all want the fairy tale and some get it but I suspect most don't. But hey tomorrow I could find "the one" and do a total reversal on my views :)
I am of the same opinion
... In contrast I have seen plenty of people get a divorce without a lawyer.
In contrast I have seen plenty people divorce amicably with little inputs from lawyers.
I have no idea how you make up the 20~25% "happy marriages at best" figure?
It is more accurate to say 100% of marriages are happy at one point in time.
Also many folks are married more than once and are still happily married presently.
Statistically I think most people die married, not unmarried.
What you prefer is hardly relevant, is it?
Life's good, enjoy it.
Cheers :)
Smile
Sox
.. In contrast I have seen plenty of people get a divorce without a lawyer.
Numbers?
Agreed this is the way I would hope it would be done - but there are a lot of divorce lawyers making some bucks - so someone is using them no? I think many are pushed to arbitrators but to get to that step - somewhere along the chain a lawyer probably made some money.
..In contrast I have seen plenty people divorce amicably with little inputs from lawyers.
Numbers?
I haven't. I know many couples who divorced - most of them got lawyers. I am agreeing with you in what is best here and what is best is to avoid lawyers like the plague whenever humanly possible.
...I have no idea how you make up the 20~25% "happy marriages at best" figure?
See statistics on marriage and divorce rates. Are you saying that ALL marriages on earth are 100% about being in love and happy? There are major reasons people are married that have zilch to do with love and happiness - arranged marriages make up a good percentage of world wide marriages - westerners make up a low percentage of worldwide population.
People get married for all sorts of reasons - family/religious pressure, money, societal pressure, cultural pressure, clock-ticking pressure, mid-life crisis pressure, because they were both hammered in Las Vegas, because "hey we're both 50 and not married - let's do it for tax savings." Indeed, some of these may wind up being better.
...It is more accurate to say 100% of marriages are happy at one point in time.
It is also accurate to say that most of those were unhappy at one point in time as well - no happy couple has ever fought or gone through tough times?
How about arranged marriages where 13 year olds are forced to marry a 50 year old - is this a 100% happy marriage? Really? I suppose oif the girl's vote isn't counted (and indeed in most religions it's not counted).
What about people who marry for money? Ever heard of gold-diggers? Women from Russia or elsewhere who marry Americans on the internet are in it strictly for love and happiness? Well maybe happiness of finding a lonely sucker they can use as a green card and give them a life of luxury and the guy might be happy he's got a pretty blond on his arm - but that's kind of a superficial "happiness" and not really the intention of marriage in most people's view. I ain't seeing no 100% are happy scenario.
But yeah (mainstream marriages) at one time they might have been happy and in love at some point. People often (not always) change however.
...Also many folks are married more than once and are still happily married presently...
Yes some even marry the same person twice. A second marriage indicates the first didn't work however.
...Statistically I think most people die married, not unmarried...
Unless they died at the same time I think statistically they didn't die married - most may die widowed mind you which is what I think you mean here. That I'd give you but then I haven't seen the numbers.
What you prefer is hardly relevant, is it?
Well it is to me.
I know a lot of divorced guys who wish they came to the conclusion earlier - they'd all have a few hundred grand or millions more in the bank.
My advice is "be sure" and if the tiniest sliver of doubt exists it's probably the reason part of the brain telling you something. I know plenty of married couples who seem happy as well. My own parents were married 35 years and would still be if my dad hadn't smoked so damn much. So yeah I didn't want to come off totally down on marriage - but I see too many people get married because "it's the thing expected of them" by various influences.
Yes, you can legally get a divorce without a lawyer, but most people have no clue to the long-term implications of the agreements they reach, e.g., tax liabilities. They may not realize what they are entitled to keep according to applicable federal and state laws. So I would not recommend that most people get a divorce without each party at least getting a consultation from an attorney.
Oh, and those "nasty" divorce lawyers run up the bills and create lasting enmity where none need exist. Consider divorce mediation--it's calmer and saves everyone a lot of money.
Yes you are correct. It helps if it is an amicable divorce but when it's not - the lawyer up idea is kind of a must.
... I hope the guy getting divorced gets to keep his audio gear, I see no reason why he wont.
I am happily married and you're not.
Cheers.
Smile
Sox
It doesn't even occur to you that you might be the exception rather than the rule, does it?
What is the divorce rate in OZ? In Europe and the US it is generally > 50%. That is pretty telling in and of itself; however, RGA also makes a fairly valid point that as many as half of the others are staying together for other reasons and not because they have a happy marriage.
You should consider yourself lucky if you have a happy one...good for you!
Now, as to why he might lose his gear...revenge is often a motivation in divorce proceedings. If the marriage is ending badly then the wife, who generally has the advantage at least in US courts, might take the stuff just to make the guy feel bad. Maybe it is hard for you to understand how people can turn nasty to each other but they surely can and do quite often.
It would be a pity for him...but we don't know WHY they are getting divorced.
...Divorce rates around the world range from about 70% in Belgium to about 3% in Chile and every other figure in between the two for other countries.
So you can paint with broad brush, you usually do.
We can speculate about what may or may not happen with inmate, navman. In time I suspect we will hear if he gets to keep his audio gear or otherwise. I wish him well.
Till then none of us knows what will happen.
Oh, he will only lose his audio gear if he and his wife can't agree on a monetary value of the gear. Unless of course she also lays claim to said gear. A bit of audio gear is hardly going to be a major issue in a divorce, or I should say, it shouldn't be. If it is, so be it.
Time will tell.
Cheers.
Smile
Sox
And you seem not to be able to read very well. I said Europe and the US...not Chile or any other part of South America or Africa or Asia.
"A bit of audio gear is hardly going to be a major issue in a divorce, or I should say, it shouldn't be. If it is, so be it.
"
Depends on the value of said gear as to whether it is a "little bit" or a "Lotta bit". He seems concerned so it seems very possible that that she might want to take it for whatever reason.
... You are painting with a broad brush ol 'son.
The divorce rate in Europe ranges from 11% to 70%. So what point are you trying to make? Rhetorical ol 'son, rhetorical.
I will leave you and your ilk to stress over audio gear in a divorce. Gosh, what an after dinner, mind-numbing tête-à-tête that will be.
Instead of preening around speculating about what might or might not happen, how about we all wait to see what actually does happen when navman's divorce is finalized. Gosh, I can hardly wait!
Till then, I won't give it a second thought, will you?
Cheers.
Smile
Sox
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