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If I can explain it, very very lifelike, black background. But no sense of emotion. Maybe it is me?
Follow Ups:
I wound up figuring out the room and the speaker placement properly. I had to move a couple of things around, but now everything seems better for the most part. A huge part of it was eliminating objects in the room, whether they reflected the sound or absorbed it.
thanks a lot for all the thoughts, I appreciate the help.. The Gallos are great, althought I await to see what Anthony has up his sleeve next, I also await what John has up his sleeve with the Bel Canto products, I am hoping for Bel Canto Black technology to trickle down to something I can afford down the line. But for the forseeable future I am keeping what I have.
your room IS pretty dark (going by your recent pics)!
Hi ,
In my experience I had this problem for quite sometime when I move to our new home. In my new listening room my system( VPI TNT6, Kuzma Stogi Ref , Koetsu Rosewood w/ TOL retippping frm Soundsmith, ARC SP11 MK2 , ARC Classic 150 mono blocks , Duntech C5000 Princess) the sound was so dark & lifeless compared to the sound in my old home. What I did was replaced the TNT 6's platter to the Classic platter , replaced the Stogi Ref w/ the Kuzma Stogi Ref 313 VTA and replaced the Koetsu w/ the Benz Micro Gullwing SLR then w/ a help of my friend using a USB microscope & Michael Fremer's programm for setting the VTA to 92 degrees I'm now very happy w/ the sound of my system.
It's really room and component interaction that will make your system bright or dark in my humble opinion.
Hope this helps,
Mondial
The amazing thing about this hobby is that , 1. we get used to and compensate for the deficiencies in our systems and 2. almost ANY change that requires significant expense or time, does end up making the system better because we WANT to make the system sound better (see number 1)....until 3) we get used to (or get irritated by) the new things the system is doing, and then 4) find some other problem we want to fix.
Given your conclusion that the component and room interaction is the most important thing, I'm amazed you had such dramatic results from tweaking the turntable/cartidge.
Of course, the source is ultimately the most important...give me a great recording over a boombox, any day, over a poor recording on a $100,000 system.
I think the dreams and hallucinations you both seem susceptible to and hope others experience is the religious / new age term, Wish Fulfillment.
Well, that's what my imaginary friend said.
Where were you when I needed you on the breakin thread?
Too much is never enough
...nt :)
Hi Tom,
I myself am amazed by the dramatic turnaround when the front end was upgraded and tweaked .Another eye opening was when the VTA was set at 92 degrees and the appropriate azimuth adjustment performed using a Fogzmeter and the acoustic sound test record. After this adjustment I have lost my appetite in upgrading my electronics and would rather spend money buying LP's.
mondial
When I'm stumped, I usually go back to headphones.
wow, I hear that.
If it is not the interconnects, then suspect the speaker wires.
Why? I don't know, but why would people spend an insane amount on cabling??
Bullet;
Years ago I also had Bel Canto class D amps (M-300's). I was initially drawn to them because of their jet black background, high power rating, and good (almost great) bass.
After some time I began to wonder if they were all I had thought they were. I began to notice things like rolled off high frequency response, bleached midrange, and basically uninteresting sound.
Thankfully, I was able to hear some great horns with a push/pull tube amp and finally knew that's what I wanted.
If it were me I would first try (borrow) a good class A/B amp with your Gallos. Maybe a Pass X250, McIntosh MC 402, Parasound Halo etc.......
If that doesn't do it, try to hear some good horns with a moderately powered push/pull tube amp. I say push/pull because I have never personally heard a SET amp that could do justice to Metallica, or any other non audiophile music that I care to listen to. I'm not saying there aren't any. I'm just saying that I haven't personally heard any SET amps that could capture the impact of a kick drum the way I knew it should sound.
It has been my experience that folks with nice horns/tube setups ended up there, they didn't begin there. I'm sure there are those that had horns/tubes that now have cones and boxes, but I would bet they are in the very small minority.
Or.......Turn the stereo off for a month and then listen. You may have a totally different perspective on things.
Good luck.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
I use the REF 500s, I did a side by side comparison with a Dussun v6i which is excellent. I prefered the REFs.
problem was really that I had too many objects in the listening room, a subwoofer that I was too lazy to take out from behind one of the speakers, as well as too many bass traps and room treatments. I was busy last night fixing that problem, I'm going to be doing more listening to see how I can make the room better, as I'd admit I don't know that much about rooms. I have a copy of Get Better Sound that I will have to open up.
cheers! also the break is good, I recommend that for a lot of things.
An overdamped or slightly rolled off sound ok but dark sound is something different from those sounds.
I use the REF 500s, I did a side by side comparison with a Dussun v6i which is excellent. I prefered the REFs.
So? Does anyone here know this other amp at all?? What does a relative comparison with ONE other amplifier tell us?
It is not the Gallos that is the one thing I can tell you pretty clearly.
plastic woofers, multiple drivers for one freq. range, overdamped room, class D amps, high relative humidity, your mood, i could go on....
also the one poster who raised his off the floor seemed to have good results with that, experiment with that too...cheers
The woofers in the Gallo Ref 3.5's are not plastic. They are ceramic coated aluminum. The midrange drivers are carbon fiber.
I have found carbon fiber drivers can sound somewhat dead and overdamped as well, but it depends on the overall implementation.
Multiway systems with lots of philosophies and materials can be hard to get sounding coherent.
Dynamics are sometimes gained at the expense of coherence, as well.
So it's always a balance.
I'm not amazed that the Gallos are not at their best with hip hop and rock, although again, room integration is totally key..you need to load the midbass right into the room, and the listening position has be right, etc. etc.
Listen in the early morning when the bloodstream relatively is unpolluted.
How does it sound in the light of day with a clear head?
cant disclose anything further ;)
As I looked at the photo of your system, I was thinking that you have one helluva nice setup. You have a similar arrangement to mine as far as the placement and cabinet go, and my own feeling is that my speakers are a little too far apart for optimum imaging. How far from the speakers is your listening chair?
about 13 feet, thanks for the compliment.
Some have referred to pics of your system but no one has provided links. Is there a way to see the pics without searching through all your posts?
here .
Now you can best appreciate Steve O's post. :)
Hi lately i have listened to a pair of Tannoy DC with paper cones.
Much much better and alive than mine with plastic cones.
And unfortunately also much more expensive.
The guitars were just unbelievably real.
Maybe a little monitor but for sure alive and kicking.
Paper cones are the solution.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 01/21/15
I thought that you were happy w/ your system?
My own experience was that I dampened my Thorens too much and also too much room treatment. I started removing bit by bit and noticed more life, air, coming back. Now I have remove d80% of the dampening in the TT and most of the room treatment.
Its now such an emotional experience to spend time listening.
Bob
"You have to leave something to your imagination"
.., not enough Yin.
You've strayed too far from the Garden of Eden. Rely no more upon protein and fat alone. Gradually add more fresh vegetation and some complex carbs to your diet. Be prepared for some startling changes in your bowel habits, but don't give up the fight.
Open up the blinds whenever possible. Vitamin D supplementation might help kickstart your recovery. Walk outside in the park for one hour per day, minimal clothing.
Find a good masseuse, schedule a weekly massage.
Less padded upholstery, more glass and metal in the listening area.
Report back in a month or two.
some of the surround modes on mine sound that way too. If it has a "direct" mode. use that.
Just make sure you buy the right ones.
I thought something was wrong, I fixed the problem.
$9K speakers or not I appreciate the help when I ask, thanks.
I don't know all of the pieces you have in your system since I have only heard the pieces that I've heard in my life. However, do the different pieces by themselves tend to have a sound that would never be described as bright? I ain't no eggspert but if you had a whole chain of components that emphasize bass and tend to roll off or at least deemphasize the higher frequencies it seems entirely possible that no matter the room treatments the system is going to probably sound dark and lifeless.
by themselves they sounded alright when hooked up to different chains. I just removed some treatments strategically, now sounds are reflecting more and it sounds more alive, breathing a bit. However I am trying to reach the first point I had a real system in my mind. That's not coming back, the excitement when you first experience something wears off.
I think I ruined everything with excess, I am sure that's not really a problem. I have unimaginable amount of music at my fingertips and nothing to listen to.
Cheers!
I previously stated we have the same loudspeakers and similar amps. I have extensive room treatments including GIK Acoustics Screen Panels (4) & Tri-corner Bass Traps with built in Scatter Plates (4). According to RealTraps you cannot ever have enough bass traps. The CDT in your Gallos have a very wide dispersion and require first reflection point treatment.
My room is 18 x 18 x 8 with an additional 6 x 6 alcove to one side at the bass of an open stairwell. The floor is porcelain tiles covered with an 8 x 10 wool carpet with a very heavy inch thick pad. The ceiling tiles are suspended. The Ref 3.5's are 9 feet apart, 3 feet from the front wall and 4 feet from the side walls. The sweet spot is 13 feet from midway between the loudspeakers.
The GIK panels were all added gradually with a pair at a time. I do have five bookcases two of which have glass doors. The sound was very bright, strident and hard without acoustic treatments. Given all this, I would never have characterized my end result as dark but more balanced. The Ref 3.5's benefit with a generous application of power. The pictures above may help although we do have very different rooms I am sure.
cool looking woofer ;)
Hey BHead,
When people (audiophiles) talk about room treatments, they almost always think absorption, when what they should think is absorption and diffusion.
"Soundstage" is a term often bandied about. A large/wide soundstage requires reflections from room surfaces. This is an important aspect of how we perceive "spaciousness" and, therefore, soundstage. Clearly, this is difficult to achieve in a small room, but, over-damping is not the solution.
hth
:)
Have another beer.
and a joint
Or Mary Jane.
-Rod
thanks for all the responses, especially Goober58 and bjh. I first and foremost are playing the system too low, bjh reminded me of the power issues with my speakers. Goober58 reminded me I have too many room treatments, transients are sucked away by the treatments, there are too many bass traps and fabric. Thirdly I have placement issues I need to address in terms of equipment, rack and surrounding items. Looks like I'll be a busy boy tonight.
Based on the description you've given.........
Nt
IME I associate lifeless with an overdamped transient response - systems like this can be quite beautiful and colorful but lack musical progression and drive. Slightly underdamped systems may be more emotionally compelling and a more energetic presentation but lack the color/beauty of a system approaching ideal damping from the other side. Yes perfect transient response is ideal but you have to approach it from one side or the other. The thing here is pretty much we're all on one side or the other on this issue - what's a ripe stinking poop in my eyes is some other guys thing of beauty. Conversely what gets me off might be the next guys raspy noisey headache.
Just my two cents. Not sure if background relates to this.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
I have bass traps and a lot of dampening room treatments, perhaps I over did it. The sense of decay is almost non-existent, that is what I am missing. It must be the treatments in the room.
There is a very large improvement to be had by raising the height of the Gallo Ref 3.5's. I previously searched for reasonably priced solid stands for the Ref 3.5's. Many of these enhanced maple stands cost upwards of $1000.00, for common wood of all things. Searching the internet I discovered a material used in shooting ranges to stop large caliber high velocity bullets. I gave some thought to the high energy absorption required of such a material. I thought the characteristics required for that application could be easily transferrable for use as loudspeaker stands.
I ordered two blocks of vulcanized ballistic rubber. They measure ideally for the Ref 3.5 platform: 8" x 8" x 16" and are very heavy and solid at 41 pounds each.
I would never have believed such a dramatic transformation in the sound of these speakers. The overall impact is tremendous. The resultant bass is the equivalent of adding two high quality subwoofers without the expense and complexity. The bass is not only fuller and deeper but has greater layers of detail and tone color. There is more range and nuance. The mid and high frequencies likewise have a three dimensional quality with subtle cues previously masked by the lower profile of the speakers directly on the floor. Horns are not anemic sounding but very full with the appropriately realistic sound pressure levels. You can hear the individual notes on each string of a guitar. What especially amazes me is it seems I have gained more efficiency. The Ref 3.5's play louder at the same volume setting I previously used. The soundstage is much wider and deeper with the instrumentalists moving farther into the room without a loss of depth of field. Also, overall clarity is substantially improved and the experience seems cleaner overall.
These loudspeakers absolutely need to be raised at least 8 inches off the floor. The tweeters are now at my seated ear level, 8 inches higher than stock. I previously had them slightly toed in but this is no longer necessary. I moved them about 6 inches closer to the center line and pointed straight ahead. They are positioned 9 feet apart and I sit about 13 feet away with the woofers facing each other.
There are two minor cautions. These blocks are priced at $41.00 each but the UPS ground shipping is costly due to the total 82 pound weight, or about $1.00 per pound. They are made of vulcanized rubber and have a pronounced oily rubber smell prevailing in the room when you first take them out of the box. I helped to disperse this by leaving the window and door open all day with only the fan on the HVAC operating (my dedicated room has its own HVAC).
This is the best $158.00 I have ever spent. Seriously, this is like getting an entirely new music library and loudspeakers at once without spending exorbitant amounts of money on high end audiophile approved products.
These are now the best speakers that I have ever owned. They are much better than the ADS 810's, the ADS 1590's, the PMC AML1's or the Avalon Eidolons I previously owned. Now that I have the room tuned in properly I know I am absolutely correct on the sound of these Ref 3.5's and that sound is not dark.
I already have several ideas as to how I could incorporate those products. Thank you!
Thank you. I forgot to add that chemical smell took about a week to dissipate with the window open and the HVAC fan on 24/7. Alternatively, the blocks could be put outside in the sun to clear the gasses left over from the manufacturing process.
I also would not encourage setting the blocks on any carpeting you might not wish to stain. If necessary, you could slip a sheet of wax paper between the bottom of the block and the carpeting. Mine are sitting on porcelain tiles and have left absolutely no residue but I would not take a chance with fine carpeting.
I've bookmarked that post.
I have to agree with E-Stat. Room treatments are a big plus when used properly. From your pic, the one thing I've noticed is you don't appear to have placed any absorbing type panels on front wall behind the speakers and equipment rack. This is the first place I use absorbing treatment. I use diffraction devices behind the listening position. Yes, you can overdue it or place treatments in incorrect places. These are things that require experimentation. In the end and over time, I feel you're going to find component synergy, not room treatment, is the real issue.
I have bass traps and a lot of dampening room treatments, perhaps I over did it.
your current arrangement? I have quite a few bass traps in my room too, but experimented greatly with placement and measured the results.
I prefer using diffraction over damping.
I'm still fiddling around, but I like what I hear, will look into elevating the speakers.
a "dark sounding system"?
there was a speech last night that I didn't listen to, maybe that was it?
I just looked at his system ... Only time I heard the Anthony Gallo Acoustics Nucleus Reference 3.5 was in a friends system. I thought they were boring but reserve final judgement for a few reasons. Firstly because I can't remember the amplifier in use at the time and I've heard they benefit from oodles and oodles of power, and secondly the were just a quick sub for the Wilson Watt/Puppy 7 (then) used in that system, speakers I really like (when dialed in just so).
I have the same loudspeakers and amp types ( Class "D" but JRDG) as you. Yet I would not characterize the overall sound quality as dark. I have improved the room acoustics significantly with careful placement of acoustic treatments (GIK).
...recent pics you've posted of your system clearly illustrate the lack of light in your listening area. Easily remedied and for far less than the cost of $50K interconnects.
A $50K interconnect should solve your problem. ;)
this is not going to end good.
.
is there no middle ground?
I've had a LOT of equipment over the years including excellent SS and vacuum tube gear. I tend to gravitate toward vacuum tubes because for the most part they sound more natural to me.
Big +1 on that....personally have never heard a "fuzzy" tube.
...but if the tube equipment you've heard sounded "fuzzy", I suspect there was something wrong with it, or more likely, the tubes needed replacement.
I have two tube preamps, and two sets of tube monoblocks, as well as a pretty good SS power amp, and it's the Tandberg 3016A that's wrapped up in the closet. In lesser company, I could have been quite happy with it, and the Tandberg I have replaced an Innersound ESL MKII that's generally pretty well respected. I just personally liked the sound of the Tandberg better.
Please don't misunderstand me - the SS amp sounds excellent. It's just not as lifelike as the VACs.
is just what you need. Maybe a good tubed pre to start? See where it goes from there.
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