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In Reply to: RE: Don't go there - it's that simple. posted by bullethead on January 19, 2015 at 20:26:56
I can give about 100 examples, far more ridiculous, right off the top of my head - but I won't.
It's called experience - EVERYTHING matters, and it's up to one particular individual to determine for himself whether it's worth it. Speaking of experience - "snake oil" proclamations are always borne either out of inexperience, or just of pure idiocy.
Follow Ups:
While I absolutely love the emotional feel of your two descriptions motivating the snake-oilers' proclamations, my experience with the snake oil crowd is usually they cannot afford whatever it is they are whining about that day. They have no altruism behind their snide comments and ridicule. It is pure selfishness and jealousy.
I very strongly suspect that deep inside they are quite insecure and likely fear they are missing out, so they attack that which they cannot have, attempting to smear and malign it and render it off-putting to others, who join in the chorus of criticisms and ridicule, and thereby create a resonance of rejection by which to convince themselves collectively as well.
This kind of ego-saving activity is so old and common, that even Aesop wrote about it more than two millennia ago. The story is entitled, The Fox and the Grapes, and gave rise to the immortal idea of a 'sour grapes' attitude. Even Wikipedia's simple summary of the tale shows how absolutely spot-on it is in describing the attitude of the dreaded nay-saying 'snake oilers':
"Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.' People who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain would do well to apply this story to themselves."
Yes, indeed.
Cheers,
WS
.
Aesop was a fabled writer, and that story is no exception to his fantasies.In my entire life, I've never seen a grapevine so tall that even an out-of-shape fox couldn't get to the top of, whether by jumping or climbing. In any case, I doubt that any fox would care about reaching for grapes at the top of a vine, when there are so many rabbits and rodents within easy reach on the ground.
That must have been one stupid fox. Kinda flies in the face of "you sly fox" and "crazy like a fox". Maybe we should come up with a new saying, like "dumb as a fox".
;)
Edits: 01/20/15
I agree with what you are saying here but that doesn't apply to those who can afford it and genuinely feel that people are being duped by glorified used car salesmen. People blow themselves up to kill people in the name of a religion that is completely fictitious without even the remotest scintilla of a shred of evidence - but they are sure because they feel it in their hearts and minds that it is "the truth."
We've all grown up with a kind of marketed brainwashing under a barrage of advertising of this cologne is better than that - this hand bag is better than the one without the logo, this watch is superior, this amp costs $3k so it is better than the one at $2k and we have not even gotten to cars where some, phones, computers etc.
Personally I have heard cables sound different but what I will say is that it's largely a crap shoot as to whether they will be superior. And what I find is that it always seems that if X is more expensive than Y and it comes from the right label it will be viewed as sounding better than Y - always. And that to me smacks of a bias leading the audition.
In a typical mixed and matched stereo system say:
Turntable
CD Transport
DAC
Preamplifier
Amplifier
Loudspeakers
It is quite possible that the above stereo will have internal cables that are different. 6 different cables internally.
Guy goes out and buys interconnects and cables - perhaps they're all the same cable which would be consistent and somewhat logical but it;s possible that they get the ICs from ABC and the speaker cables from XYZ.
So we're up to 7 cables from source to speaker voice coil. Which does not even begin to mention the wiring used in the actual microphones and mixer boards to record the albums (which will be different from recording to recording).
So you have a CD player using $0.05 wire to a DAC using maybe decent silver wiring - out through a $500 Silver IC, to a preamp using dumpy $0.05 copper to a $300 well reviewed copper IC to an amp using a different $0.05 wire to $2000 meter Nordost uber uber wires to a speaker using $1 a foot copper to a voice coil using $0.01 wire.
And then someone will say that $2000 Nordost speaker cable is much better than the $800 XYZ - cable - as some absolute fact that will carry into all systems no matter what. Or that there is a staggering night and day difference - well if there were staggering night and day differences then someone would be able to tell them apart in a level matched blind audition - and they can't. My issue isn't with the improvements (which I have heard) it's with the hyperbole that such a thing is an across the board improvement. It reminds me of people who come to the door and and say "Hi - have you heard the voice of God" and I say no - then they look at me as if I'm a pitiable fool while they have all the answers. Umm - personally I think people who hear voices in their head should be sent to an institution rather than being elected to office but that's me.
Objectivists should bother to actually try the cables - most outfits give 30 day money back guarantees so what's the harm. That said a subjectivist should not just chuck out all their critical faculties to try and join the "me too" crowd of "See I have XYZ cable that cost $1,000 so now I can be viewed as a "Real Audiophile."" Perhaps they should put their cables in level matched blind sessions just to see for themselves if belief and perception about a thing is fooling them. Where is the harm in the experiment?
Actually, your reasoning regarding the discontinuity between internal wiring etc...and cables used to connect equipment has inadvertently, for me anyway (disclaimer JR), substantiated my thinking toward "Audiophile" cables. It explains why my favorite cable solutions involve a "BOX"! Since wire is just wire and your results may vary from one manufacturer to another, it explains why a Transparent or an MIT cable sounds so much better to me. They are doing something to the signal that actually improves the ability of the signal to be transported in a more efficacious manner. Lowering the noise floor and filtering out noise and or increasing the efficiency and "articulation" of the signal is audibly superior....to me (and several thousand other listeners). I have tried to live with "just wire" cables and have inevitably been disappointed....the wire "rabbit hole" theory has great implications indeed!
dave_b
"And what I find is that it always seems that if X is more expensive than Y and it comes from the right label it will be viewed as sounding better than Y - always. And that to me smacks of a bias leading the audition."
That's become the very definition of "high-end audio". While I believe that logically "high-end" should refer to performance, alas it just means expensive. Rather like perfume, wine, jewelry... Veblan goods.
Fortunately we have great lattitude to do better by any number of routes. That being the case it always seems odd to me that audiophiles are so cost obsessed.
Rick
It is the belief and the quest to get that cable in a system. I'd heard amazing differences in cable, but you're right, one would have to design every single component with lets say silver wires, including all connections within the speaker, everywhere in every component and throughout the chain to hear a difference.I myself use silver wire throughout, including very expensive Nordost silver speaker cable, the bottleneck is really the house electric wiring, then out to the telephone poles and the poor quality old wire which goes to a nuclear power plant which in itself can cause various impurities in the chain. One would need a self contained free energy device powering ones system from the ether into a pure silver interconnection of all components to hear what is truly possible in that case.
I haven't listened to gold wire, nor do I see it available on the market, it would be something I would like to try.
Edits: 01/20/15 01/20/15
Reactors for all, I always say.
Those liquid cables noted below look pretty cool.
why not?
Flying nuclear cars, it's about time, it's the 21st century
like McKenna would say. I agree. You just to have to understand.
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