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After the onset of tinnitus 3 1/2 years ago I've all but abandoned my wonderful hi-fi setup. I miss it terribly and want to get back into it, even though things sound different to me now. As my employment has changed I now have the income for an upgrade for my digital front end. My hearing is far less tolerant to higher frequencies and wanted as smooth a digital presentation as possible. Started to look at Rega cd players and then remembered all the people moving to a pc/hard drive based front end. Which path is recommended? I've been reading posts regarding pc's and dacs but am still utterly lost as to what formats are used, pc or stand alone server, and what software/programs control the whole thing. Is there a how-to guide to get me started? Or should I make this simpler and find a nice redbook player? My current cd player is a Rotel 970. I've been away for while so I've really fallen out of the loop on all of the changes in players and pc audio.
Follow Ups:
Two days ago I received an initial order of Ringaway to treat tinnitus. I
took it that night, found it really helped. I did not take it last night, but will again tonight because lots of listening today has my right ear
acting up again.
So far my only complaint involves my phone order while I was driving. I figured it would take 3-5 minutes, but repeated upsell attempts by an automaton drove me to hang up after 20 minutes. I got what I wanted, but hope ordering over the internet might eliminate that problem.
Otherwise I believe it's worth a try.
Come one.....did this stuff really work for you? I'm trying a couple different supplements now and mine actually has been worse lately. I just don't see how supplements can reverse inner ear damage.
This past year I replaced my Rotel 975 (which broke and couldn't be fixed) with a Marantz CD 6005 and have been extremely pleased...listening to CDs is now very enjoyable. Previously, I avoided listening to CDs through my Rotel due to the fairly early onset of listener fatigue...all of this disappeared when the Marantz was inserted into my system (Manley Stingray and Joseph Audio RM22XL speakers). Both the unit I bought and the model just below it might be a good option for you...they are relatively inexpensive and perform way above their price level. BTW, this is coming from a guy with moderate Tinnitus and the inability to hear high frequencies. Since Marantz products are fairly popular you may find a dealer close by that will let you audition one of these units in your system, which is the only way to know for sure that what you are buying will work for you.
Good Luck,
Raven
Is the Marantz a good step up from a Rotel 975/970? I ended up purchasing the Rega DAC and was amazed at how similar it is to my Rotel. I hooked up the dac and analog outs together on the Rotel which made it really easy to switch sources while analyzing. The difference is so small I'm having trouble justifying the $800 I paid for the Rega. I don't know if break-in time will change it enough. You'd think the DAC should smoke the Rotel being 15+ yrs newer in digital technology. It's leaving me wanting much more and I was reconsidering the Marantz.
My Rotel 970 has teeth worn off the gear that opens/closes the drawer, I have to open/close it manually by pulling on the drawer face. Other than that it works fine. I had read good things about Marantz units, didn't know how much of a move upward it would be from a Rotel?
Believe it or not, but that is exactly what happened to my Rotel, not once but twice. The second time I decided to put the cost of the repair toward a new player and ended up with the Marantz. Obviously, the sound I enjoy with this CD player is greatly influenced by my downstream components and both my Manley Stingray and Joseph Audio RM22XL speakers add greatly to the sonic signature that is perfect for my less than perfect old ears.
Good luck with your search...
Raven
If youy stick with digital then the problem gets harder. I'm 76, have moderate tinnitus and dont (by measure) hear above 9k. However if the treble is bad even above that frequency,it drives me away. After 30+ years trying to get satisfactory sound from cds, I got lucky and bought an Ayon 07s cd player. It's tubed and challanges my Nottingham 294 'table with Orotfon Cadenza Black cartridtge. try good tubed equipment-there's lots of it.
Is it with you right when you wake up and throughout the day.
I've had this for about 7 years now, but I have definitely found that if I avoid hearing a constant sound for the first 1/2 hour of being out of bed, I'm good to go for the day.
What can bring it on in that 1/2 half hour....
Taking a shower and hearing the water running
The space heater used in the bathroom (fan)
Listening to music
Typically, any constant, droning sound will do it to me....but it has to be within that first 1/2 hour. When I get past that (3-4 times a week), nothing I do during the day will bring it on. Loud traffic, loud music, etc.
"I can't compete with the dead". (Buck W. 2010)
I built a screened porch on our previous home during the summer of 2005. About 4 weeks into that project I awoke one night to a slight ringing in my ears. I laid there for a while, realizing it was not diminishing. It has been with me ever since. I blame the noise from the circular saw. Sure wish I had used hearing protection.
But I also work in a noisy environment (semiconductor manufacturing facility). The constant grind of vacuum pumps and other noise sources provides a consistent set of frequencies that does not vary. Of course OSHA would say the SPL is within limits, but my ears tell me differently.
I have learned to live with it. It does not keep me up at night (or day, as I work night shift). I wish I was tinnitus-free, but it is not debilitating. Luckily my system resides in a "media room" where I can crank the volume a tad and overcome the ringing.
Almost four years ago I went to bed one night and there it was in the right ear. Had that for a few months and after a noisy MRI and 4 hours in a hot tub with a fan going, I have a worse version in the left ear. I rarely hear the original one in the right side now, the other took over. I blame office cleaning i did years back, vacuuming for hours on end with no hearing protection and more recent events probably pushed it over the edge. It bothers me to no end, but I really miss listening to my music and want to get back into it.
I have experienced it primarily on the left side for five years. It is with me day-and-night. It seems particularly bad in the early morning, immediately upon awakening.
It originally came on during an episode when I was moderately depressed. Having problems with sleep, I took NSAIDs (like Ibuprofen and Naproxen), as well as Trazodone, discontinuing the Trazodone for Hydroxyzine. Meanwhile, I take a minimal dose of Fluoxetine (Prozac) to provide me with the "energy" and wherewithall to perform my work, which is highly skilled, detailed, and complex.
I have heard varying accounts and rationales as to how tinnitus comes about. I also went to a few loud concerts in confined quarters with my oldest child.
I am of the opinion that the things that I have put into my body, including certain foods and prescription and OTC medications, have had an effect on creating tinnitus and maintaining it at its present level. That does not mean that it will go away anytime soon, if at all.
Some have posited muscle tension as a predicate for it; I believe it to be more related to release or loss of muscle tension or tone. Some opine that tinnitus, like age-related hearing loss, is related to the disappearance of the microscopic hairs in our ears, which cannot regenerate. There is even a hypothesis for tinnitus in which the brain mitigates the frequencies of sensorineural hearing loss and emits a signal at the level of that hearing loss, like a beacon or radar, in order to pick up the frequency - "in search of the lost chord," if you will.
I have not fully learned to mitigate it, but I do enjoy me some audio. I will describe why later, if I can.
axolotl
It's most noticeable when I wake up, but quickly fades in prominence as I go about my day. It can become bothersome again when I'm fatigued.
Does digital sound create tinnitus?
Not in my case. But I find harsh, ethced music and higher frequency sounds in general to be intolerable now. Think of it like holding your ear next to a small cheap speaker and someone turning the treble all the way up. Thin compressed music can sound like that to someone with hearing issues and i'm looking to remedy that for myself. I still feel like I can hear everything, I just get fatigued from the shrill stuff.
Hi, NuWave,
I've had tinnitus (constant high pitched tone) for over 20 years and found that listening to poorly recorded/mastered CDs caused the tinnitus to get worse. (And I don't listen at loud levels anymore.) I've been searching for a solution for years and think I've come up with a reasonable solution...To start with, I bought a CD player that was regularly described as having an "analog" sound. Not the best in resolving details but portrayed good timber and tone. The player is a Rega Apollo. There are many players out there, including the new Apollo-R, that have a similar sound so you have some choices at a range of prices.
Secondly, I bought a tube buffer stage that I use between the CDP and my integrated amp. It provides an additional level of "warmth" (I don't like the term but it has become a common description) and helps to further tame those irritatingly harsh recordings. It's an Eastern Electric BBA that I purchased used. Some people condemn tube buffers as adding distortion to the signal but I disagree; that distortion is euphonic and adds a very musical touch to the sound, especially when it's used to tame an otherwise harsh digital recording. An additional benefit to the BBA is that it provides line-level signal attentuation so my amp volume control is consistent between the CDP and the phono preamps I use.
And lastly, I just purchased an external DAC that provides a range of filter options. I found that certain filters seem to smooth out the digital signal such that some of the more irritating CDs are now fairly listenable, even enjoyable. I can now play CDs that used to cause problems with my tinnitus at fairly loud volume levels (up to 80dB at my chair) and I don't hear an increase in the tinnitus levels. It's a Rega DAC that I purchased used. I use the minimum phase apodising and minimum phase soft-knee filters and although subtle, there's a noticeable improvement over the stock Apollo filter. I believe that my tinnitus makes me more sensitive to the pre-ringing/pre-echo effect of digital processing and those two filters seem to offer some relief. (I'm pretty sure it's not a psychoacoustics effect. :-) The Rega DAC is one of many that offer filter selections and the new DAC-R provides remote switching between filters.
I'm sure there are critics of my approach, able to point out all sorts of flaws in the gear and signal chain, but it works for me. I've been listening to vinyl for decades and now have a fairly decent analog setup which brings me great listening pleasure; being able to enjoy CDs is an important bonus since I now have access to a whole bunch of music that was previously not worth bothering with.
I don't know if a similar approach will work for you but I thought I'd give you some things to consider. Good luck in your search.
Best regards,
Tom
Edits: 01/09/15
The highs have to be perfect. I have spent a lot on managing to do that.
I never really questioned if my values might have been altered by having tinnitus.. But your comment makes me wonder.
Anyway, yes the highs matter totally. I use a two power conditioners, and lots of other means to get the highs right. Including Magnepan 3.6 speakers.. With one of the best, most revealing tweeters around.
Hi, Nuit,
I think tinnitus affects everyone in different ways so there are many solutions to the problem. The trick is to spend the time figuring out what works best. It's taken me almost a decade to get it just about right and I'm glad I made the effort. Sounds like (no pun intended) you've reached a similar place.
Regards,
Tom
.
Tom
Do you run any audio from a pc/hard drive thru the DAC? The DAC sounds like it might be a good place to start for me, although i haven't seen many of those on the used market. I was originally looking for an Apollo and read some very favorable things about the Saturn, which a used is about at the top of my price range. Either of those for me would be online purchases without any auditioning.
I don't use computers for music and haven't purchased a music server so I don't have any experience with using the DAC for that purpose. The Rega DAC needs a USB to SPDIF converter to take advantage of higher resolution (> 48K sample rate) music files. The updated DAC-R now has high resolution USB capabilities.The Rega DAC is currently being discounted by most retailers since the DAC-R came out and you do see the original DAC on the used market every so often. My hunch is that it's a good DAC for the money and people are hanging on to them. I happened to find out about one through a retailer that was accepting it as a trade-in.
After hearing what the Rega DAC can do for the Apollo, I'm convinced of using external DACs with a decent, but not high end, CDP. I will confess to wanting a Parasound Halo CD-1, though.
I have only auditioned two pieces of audio gear, both of them speakers, in all the years that I've purchased stereo equipment. Living in rural USA has it's advantages but auditioning audio gear isn't one of them. :-) So I've learned to do my homework online and find out as much as I can about a product before buying. I especially look for somewhat negative or ho-hum reviews to see where people differ in their perceptions. (And truly contradictory remarks are often the result of other problems in the system or improper setup.)
I can't give you a comparison of the Rega DAC with any other DAC, only that it made the Rega Apollo, an already "analog" sounding CDP sound even more so. As long you're not looking for the ultimate in detail and frequency extension, which I don't need or necessarily care for (etched digital hyper-detail just doesn't sound natural to me), the Rega may work for you. I wanted a way to listen to CDs without irritating my tinnitus and I found what I was looking for.
Edited : My comment about digital hyper-detail is specific to the etched sound on some CD recordings. Etched is described in Stereophile's Sounds Like? An Audio Glossary as "Very crisp and sharply outlined, focused to an almost excessive degree.
Refer to the link below for a good discussion on the Rega DAC.
Edits: 01/10/15
What exactly is the issue with the original DAC and sample rates? It looks like it has a usb input, and i don't think i would need a remote for it. The old version looks like it has 5 filter choices and the new one appears to have only 3.
I'm not aware of any issues with the sampling rates available with the original DAC other than a deal breaker for some people is that the USB input is limited to 16bit/48K. The simple solution is to use a USB-to-SPDIF converter from your computer/server to the co-axial input on the DAC.As to the DAC-R having fewer filter options, the one filter I noticed that they no longer offer is the minimum phase soft-knee filter for lower sampling rates. I find that it's a good one for well-recorded and properly mastered CDs, otherwise I use the minimum phase apodising filter for just about everything. Being able to switch between filters remotely would be a nice feature but I find that listening to music for an extended period and then re-listening with a different filter is just as productive, it just takes longer. For me the two best filters stood out fairly quickly when I played some of the more strident CDs I have.
The more I listen to a range of CDs through the Rega DAC the more I'm convinced that I've made headway into taming the sometimes harsh sound of Redbook CD. I'm quite content listening to CDs for hours and don't shy away from some of my collection like I did before the Rega DAC.
No guarantee that you'll find the same, so it's a bit of a gamble. But you won't know unless you try. That's why I went with a used DAC at a price I could justify; if it didn't work out I could always sell it and not lose much.
Regards,
Tom
Edits: 01/31/15
I think I might go that route, the converters look pretty simple. I've seen a handful of the original DAC for sale in the $500-600 range. I would use it with my Rotel as a transport. I also have three nice quality Onkyo Dvd players piling up as the formats kept changing before blu-ray came out. Would those work well as a transport? One is a SACD player also and reads a couple discs that my Rotel won't.
I've used an Oppo BDP-103 to play CDs through the Rega DAC so I don't see why any of your disc players wouldn't also work with SACD as long as the players have digital output.I did read (and have experienced) where occasionally the DAC is unable to lock onto a signal but it's usually the fault of the player, not the DAC. In my case the Apollo CDP that I use wasn't able to correctly read a commercial CD and was sending garbage to the DAC. All I had to do was rip and burn a copy of the CD and the CD-R plays "perfectly". (See edit comment below.)
And that's why I happened to use the Oppo to play CDs; I was troubleshooting the Apollo problem. The funny thing is, the Oppo was able to read the CD just fine. What's really weird is that the Apollo could correctly read and play that CD through the internal DAC and analog outputs but couldn't send a proper digital signal to the external DAC. That's just one of the reasons why I'll always prefer vinyl; fewer things to drive you crazy. :-)
Edited : Regarding the odd behavior of the Apollo and the bad digital signal; I got a reply from Conor Poull, Service Manager at the The Sound Organisation, Rega's USA distributor and he said "... we have run into this issue before. It's actually an issue with the protection code on the disc itself. Because the copy protection is causing the digital out issue, you won't see it in analog, or with a ripped copy of the disc." So there you have it, mystery solved.
Tom
Edits: 01/12/15 01/12/15
One dac available on A-gon stated as new in box. Another for a bit less on ebay but for some reason the seller is blocking out the serial number in the picture with his thumb, although you can make out the number a little on the box(if it's the matching box). That seems fishy to me. Music Direct has it marked down to $795(original version). I don't suppose you live near Milwaukee, do you? :-)
The Rega DAC from Music Direct is a better deal if you figure that you get a warranty for only $47 more than the Audiogon offer ($729 + $19 shipping vs $795 + free shipping).
I wasn't in any hurry to get the DAC so was willing to wait for a good deal on a used one or else wait for Music Direct to drop their price again once the new DAC-R had been on the streets a bit longer. That's assuming they have a bunch of the original DACs to clear out.
If nothing had come along in the next month I probably would have bought a new DAC from Music Direct even if the price hadn't dropped any further. You could always call them and see if they'd take another $50 off the price. You never know...
Tom
Ordered the DAC from Music Direct last night. :-) Hoping to have it before the weekend for some listening. I was ok with paying a few more bucks knowing i'm getting a brand new one. Can I use my Audioquest video coax cable for the connection? It's been hanging off of an old vcr for years.
I've been told that it's important to have a coaxial cable that's designed for 75 Ohms impedance to get the best sound; from what I've read, most decent video cables make good digital cables. But I don't have any experience other than the cable I bought specifically for the DAC.
Have fun experimenting with the DAC filters and let us know what you find. With any luck you'll be able to enjoy your digital music once again.
Tom
Got the Rega yesterday. Played it for a while and i'm not sure what i think. Ran the digital and the rca's out of my Rotel so i was able to switch back and forth with my preamp sources for the comparison. To me it sounds only a bit better, with more air and more definition, but nothing to make me excited to sit down and listen to my collection to enjoy the new sound. It also sounded a bit brighter. I went thru the filters and none of them really jumped out as helping the sound any.
I was expecting a larger difference, one like I've heard in the past when comparing my existing player to a higher level one. Granted, the player that sounded substantially better was an Audio Research CD2, but I would think a 20 yr old $700 player would have given up much more to a newer $1k DAC. I'll listen some more this weekend.
On a side note, I hooked up my Audio Research VT 60 after it sat in my closet for 5+ years and it's not working. The power light comes on for a second, then goes off. The four large tubes turn on and of the three small tubes, the left/right ones light up but the center one does not. I'm hoping that middle tube is the issue, and i don't replace it and have the new one do the same thing. I really don't know anything about tubes, other than they get warm when they're working and the can sound good.
I listened to a particularly harsh CD tonight and it didn't surprise me but the DAC didn't help with a really bad recording. The CD is The Pretenders - "The Singles" and it's just plain awful. At least the songs produced by Chris Thomas; the songs from "Get Close" are listenable.
Tom
I love that album! Actually i have it on vinyl and recorded my favorite few songs from there and put 'em right into itunes. I would have thought that would be a decent recording. I'll admit, 75% of my cd collection is 80's music and relatively speaking, i'm thinking the recordings are average or below compared to something considered 'audiophile'. I do however have a handful of gems on vinyl from that era that sound wonderful.
I did notice on my Rega that they built it with the standard socket for the power cable, making it possible to upgrade. I have not seen that connection anywhere in pictures of used ones I've come across, or even pictures of new ones on dealer's websites.
I have their early albums on vinyl and they're pretty good recordings but something was lost in translation to CD. So I'm going to buy "Get Close" on vinyl and give "The Singles" CD away. For some reason that particular CD really aggravates my tinnitus.
Interesting about the power connection on the DAC you got; I bought a C5 adapter and use a good 15 amp power cord with mine.
Regards,
Tom
I'm not surprised that you didn't hear a big difference if the Rotel was already providing a fairly good sound. It was the same for the difference between the Rega Apollo's internal DAC and the external DAC; it's not a night and day change. But subtle differences can be important, depending on what you're listening for, or depending on what your ears can hear.
I don't notice much difference in most of the music I play but there are certain CDs that I use as benchmarks of irritating digital sound where the Rega DAC makes a difference I can really hear. It's those CDs that I wanted to listen to without the irritating harshness and the DAC makes just enough difference for me to do so. I'm also finding that overall there's been an improvement, but it's taking some time to hear the difference. It's subtle, but it's there once I recognized it.
Give the DAC some time and perhaps you'll begin to notice those important differences.
Tom
After a quick search, this looks to be a good bargain, not having to pay the VAT. It appears to be out of stock though :-(
tom
Welcome back! NuWave.
if you enjoy the Rotel cd player, then buy a Rotel preamp and power amp and you are done. Rotel is a sonic match for Vandersteen speakers. Top it off w/ Audioquest cables. Keep me posted & Happy Listening.
Absolutely, sometimes good enough is good enough;))
dave_b
I had the Rotel 980 pre/power combo with the Vandersteen and moved it to my fitness room. I had heard a Meridian combo years back that really moved me so I upgraded my main system to the Meridian 541 pre and 556 amp. I had a Audio Research VT60 tube amp in there for a bit but now that's in the closet. Still using my Audioquest type 2 and Ruby cables.
Edits: 01/09/15
Well, did you enjoy the Rotel, Meridian or ARC gear ?
I've quite enjoyed my Line Magnetic 502CA DAC.
I am writing a review of it (I've had it for about 8 months). Anyway - it's very good for both Redbook CD and computer audio. I was quite pleased by the latter especially at the price.
It is switchable for both tube and SS (the former sounds better). It has pretty much all the connections you would want. It;s not a CD player but in most cases all budget CD player transports come from the same budget sources - so not a lot of standouts if any so you may as well just use anything that is fairly decent that has digital outs (which is practically everything). I might be under promoting how good this DAC actually is and how it will likely fly under the radar.
It has been reviewed by a couple of magazines apparently.
http://www.witchdoctor.co.nz/index.php/2013/06/line-magnetic-lm-502ca-vacuum-tube-dac-review/
and
...I suggest you start with the most important part - the speakers.
If you like Vandys, upgrade to the 3s (as you mentioned below) since they are not much larger than the 2Cs if you can afford them.
Then find an amp that matches them well.
With this as the basis of your system you can now upgrade, add other components and really hear how they sound.
I still use a CD player for my CD collection on my big system although all my favorite music has been loaded into iTunes (Lossless) on my computer so I can listen to it on my iPod for trips or on the family room system making dinner.
Many people are going to computer music-servers and playing the music wirelessly through Sonos or a system of that type.
this system is in a spare bedroom, so I think the 2ce might even be pushing it considering the listening distance i'm currently at. The 3's always looked giant to me!
Your statement of "My hearing is far less tolerant to higher frequencies" got me thinking a bit. With hearing loss comes the inability to detect direction of sound and especially with higher frequencies. Doing all you can to stop reflections will help immensely. Just a thought.With that said, I've always found Rotel equipment to sound a bit harsh. Personally I would go with a Windows laptop or MAC Mini and DAC combination. This would mean ripping your cd's to hard drive. This will allow you to take full advantage of high quality USB DAC. I will suggest the Ayre QB9. This is a quality, high performing DAC with a well balanced delivery. Nothing will stand out with this DAC, but will draw you into the music.
Yes, ripping a 1000 cd's is a PITA, but once you have a system down, ripping 20 cd's a night get the job done and once done, you're grovin'
Folks use all kinds of software. Foobar, JRiver media are popular. Foobar is free and J River has a trail version. Download, mess around and ask questions. Mess around until you feel comfortable. That's the way you learn. Believe me, you'll be jammin' in no time.
For the rest of your system, you have to tell us your budget. 3K, 10k, 25K. The QB9 will set you back about 3k by itself. Buckle up Dorothy...
Edits: 01/08/15 01/08/15
Right now on my desktop I have all my discs imported into itunes with AIFF and AAC. My laptop is a much more capable computer, would I need to re-rip all those to the laptop as full wav files? How does one organize and play those songs without itunes? I read somewhere about using a tablet to control the computer. That would be ideal - sit in a listening chair scrolling on a touch screen with big flashy icons and controlling songs and playlists remotely to the laptop. :-)
Virtually all full featured music software will play just about any file format thrown at them. I use J River Media, but others use various software. It's whatever you become used to. I use FLAC for my file format. FLAC is lossless, does tagging beautifully and is compressed while sitting around on the hard drive. FLAC decompresses while playing. With 2,3,5TB hard drives been cheap, compression is not much of an issue, but tagging is.
Remote control? Sure..kind of. I use JRemote to control my JRiver, but it doesn't work with Spotify, Pandora, etc. If PC, then you'll have to get some software that will take over the desktop. If you go MAC Mini, then an Ipad does the trick.
A nice DAC would probably be the first step.
I find it confusing that some DACs are recommended for S/PDIF and others for USB. I suggest you find one that can handle both in your price range.
I'm still on CDs, but it's days are numbered. I expect to put them on a file server eventually, when I get around to it!
You don't mention speakers. Is that a part of your upgrade plan as well?
Right now I have Vandersteen 1C and I'm watching A-gon and Ebay for a pair of 2CE, Signatures if possible. I think my room might be a bit small for the 3A but I really wanted to stick with Vandersteen
I also have tinnitus and am sensitive to certain frequencies. I think Rogue's all tube amplifiers are a good match for Vandies in this regard. See the amp forum for more opinions.
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