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In Reply to: RE: Before You Buy a SimAudio Product posted by Sprezza Tura on October 21, 2014 at 07:42:18
Clearly, you do not subscribe to a fundamental principle, "...its YOUR machine, you paid for it, you may do whatever you wish with it". In short, you should be able to have any capable person you wish repair it. If you are unfamiliar with this fundamental principal you may wish to peruse RightToRepair.org, or a number of other forums. Your information is also erroneous. Audio Research does, in fact, make information available to repair facilities outside of the factory.
In the US, auto manufacturers attempted to impose repair restrictions in which only the manufacturers representatives (the dealers) would have access to the tools and information necessary to complete repairs on vehicles of their manufacture. The courts, particularly in California, have ruled this to be illegal in the US. You may wish to forgo the right to deal with whomever you choose because you enjoy the wherewithal and/or convenience the factory provides. Many of the rest of us feel uncomfortable about entrusting one entity to provide service and support for our expensive possessions.
Follow Ups:
You can have "any capable person you wish repair it." And the manufacturer can reasonably decline to fix that piece of your equipment if it wishes. Not sure what you mean by "illegal" with respect to CA car repairs. It's not like a criminal offense or something. I guess, if it were me, before I posted a cranky, nasty post, I would make sure I knew precisely what I was talking about.
Kerry
Clearly, you do not subscribe to a fundamental principle, "...its YOUR machine, you paid for it, you may do whatever you wish with it". In short, you should be able to have any capable person you wish repair it.
Simaudio isn't stopping you from taking it to an independent repair technician, they are just not going to lend their support to the person you chose.
You seem to think that Simaudio has an obligation to provide their support and intellectual property (i.e. schematics, bias settings, troubleshooting procedures, etc.) to third parties who might wish to service their products, like the auto industry does. But the auto repair industry contains 100000+ businesses employing on the order of a million people, and the major auto makers employ on the order of 100000 people each with revenues in the $100B/year range.
Simaudio is a small high end audio company which employs something like 50 or 60 people and they don't have the need or the staff to manage a network of authorized service centers. They probably feel that the only way they can ensure the quality of repair work is to do it themselves, and it's probably justified.
What I don't understand is why you would WANT to send it anywhere else? What exactly do you find objectionable about sending it to Simaudio vs. sending it to some other company?
I have several objections:
Sole-source...It is done to maximize profits, there is no altruistic component whatsoever. The premiss that it would be an onerous undertaking for the manufacturer to provide information to other repair shops is hogwash. Since I started this thread I have spoken to three of the techs I have done business with in the past. Two have read some of the comments and were absolutely astounded by how little most seem to know about the electronics repair business. Shops don't get there schematics and specification books from the electronics ferry; THEY PAY FOR THEM! The proprietary parts they must get from the manufacturer, but unless they are needed for a warranty repair, are PAID FOR by the shop (and subsequently by you, the consumer). There is nothing, whatsoever, benevolent about a manufacturer setting up a network of repair facilities. They do it because their customers demand it and the repair shops are willing to pay for the parts/information because they see a profit in it. One tech told me all he needs to get documentation and parts (from most manufacturers) is a telephone and a credit card. It isn't altruistic, it's business! Sim Audio doesn't do this because their customers don't demand it and it is very profitable to compel owners to send everything home to Montreal...PERIOD.
Send...I would rather "take" and look the repairman in the eye and convey my concerns and description of the problem so that I may leave him to his work knowing he understands the nature of my problem.
One of my Simaudio amps failed and I also need to get it serviced. But as long as Simaudio is able to provide service, there is no way I would want to send it anywhere else. I believe the manufacturer is best equipped to service their own products. I've also had several bad experiences with independent "authorized" repair shops:
One shop took 6 months to repair my Pioneer Kuro TV because they didn't investigate the root cause of the problem and instead they just ordered one part after another until they had replaced every LRU in the set, and only then asked Pioneer for help. They also lost the remote. Thankfully, it was a warranty job so I didn't pay for all those boards.
I've had two pieces of equipment which were in excellent condition when I sent them but returned with cosmetic damage. In one case, the damage was significant and obvious so I couldn't believe they tried to get away with it.
I had a CD/DVD/universal player returned to me (twice!) without fixing the problem but claiming they had. Same for a VCR.
I once sent an amp for repair, and they threw away the original box and packaging I sent it with, and returned it in an oversized box with only peanuts for protection.
I think it's great that Simaudio is willing to service their legacy products. This is one of the benefits you get when you buy audio equipment from a reputable high end manufacturer, that you generally don't get with mass market oriented manufacturers. You should take advantage of it rather than complain about it.
Does you fundamental principle also include "and if you muck it up, the manufacturer/authorized repair facility still has to fix it"?
rlindsa
Yup, Audio Research does indeed provide parts and schematics even decades after a product has been discontinued. I have an ARC VT100mkII schematic along with notes and expected measured electrical values scribbled on it while talking to their service department. I have also purchased faceplates and knobs for old ARC preamps when I wanted to swap colors.
Same for Manley Labs. They sent me parts and a schematic so I could perform a DIY repair on a couple smoked cathode resistors. Their tech even walked me through a couple pointers over the phone while I had my multimeter and soldering iron ready to go. It sure beat having to pack up a 70 pound amp!
Pass Labs has sent me free parts and some that I've purchased, including a meter movement for an X150.5 and a machined aluminum front panel 'wing' for an X3 3-channel amp.
Thiel has sent me free replacement brass feet for my CS2.4 which were lost in a recent move. They also sent me free touch up stain for my CS1.5 speakers decades out of warranty.
I love the no hassle dealings with these companies so I can understand your frustration. Just blame it on CANADA !!
On the other hand, things could be worse. You could have bought some bargain Chinese piece no longer supported after a short couple years and a dealer network that is no longer around.
The fact that SimAudio is at least offering to pay for shipping and repair a 17 year old amp is a good sign. If they refuse to repair a modified product, I don't blame them one bit. Who knows what some garage hack has done to their design.
Just my 2-cents worth.
There are a number of Chinese sourced electronic units that you can not get any support for including from the factory or parts or repair data according to a number of threads.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
C'mon dude! Would you really expect Chinese made gear to have any back up. That's why the crap is so cheap. If it breaks you just buy a new one.
"Just blame it on CANADA !!"
I was thinking of posting that video but you beat me to it. Love it!
If you want to go down the path of anyone other than the manufacturer working on your property, you are not being stopped. If the manufacturer won't give away their intellictual design propery I have no beef with that.
"In addition, Sim Audio may decline a repair if, after their inspection, they have determined your equipment has undergone "unauthorized" modification." If this applies to products within their warranty period that is more understandable. Otherwise to only work on products that haven't been altered is their choice, but not the best for good customer service.
In a good design everything can and does matter - one who knows, understands and admits this when it comes to repairs is the one who I want to use. Refusing to fix someone else's work is respectful of the person who commissioned the work and the person who performed it. Most hacks can fix anything - but how much, if any, they've honored the original design/function is always questionable. And if this kind of stuff doesn't matter what's the point of high end in the first place?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Try to consider the modification thing from their angle. I doubt seriously that a Ford dealer would want to work on one of their cars where the owner has replaced the engine with a Chevy engine. Why would you expect the same of a small boutique audio manufacturer? As for entrusting a service and support to a single entity - maybe you are new to the high-end audio thing, but that's just the way it is. Get used to it ... or buy Sony. You are certainly free to search out someone else to repair you machine if you do not like the terms of the folks in Canada.
Tough luck. You should have thought about that 17 years ago LOL.
Oh, wait, Simaudio, unlike many other fly by nights, is still in business decades later. Hmm. Could be because they make great products?
To advise people to think twice before buying one of their products because of your slanted view is rather in poor taste.
"Tough luck. You should have thought about that 17 years ago LOL." Brilliant!
Now, for those who are not encumbered with an overwhelming and misguided sense of brand loyalty, consider this; the bottom line is Sim Audio has positioned themselves as the sole-source of all repairs on their products. Don't obfuscate the facts...this has nothing to do with modifications, has less to do with the cost of shipment, and has nothing to do with, "...everyone else does it so why shouldn't Sim Audio" (which is pure rubbish...many manufacturers still employ a network of authorized repair shops). It has everything to do with the fact that you are entrusting one facility with the service of your expensive equipment. Sim Audio is not a charity...they haven't positioned themselves as the sole-source of repair because of some sense of altruism for the customers...they do it because the make more money. They can charge whatever they please because no one can make an informed comparison between cost effective or otherwise. The alternative to their services does not exist. Now, considering the last sentence as fact (stipulated by Mr. Poulin), how can anyone be certain they are receiving a proper cost effective repair from Sim Audio? If it makes noise, your happy? Some of us have a higher standard.
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