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I sometimes see used audio gear for sale with ads that include the phrase, 'just returned from manufacturer with a clean bill of health', or 'just had it checked out to ensure it's up to spec', or similar.
Is it just me, or does this raise a red flag with anyone else? It makes me wonder WHY was the piece sent to the manufacturer? What was wrong with it to warrant a trip back to the manufacturer? And now it's up for sale AFTER receiving a 'clean bill of health'? Does it still not sound right? Is there still an unresolved problem, so it's up for sale?
Personally, I'd rather buy a used piece that has NEVER been sent back for repairs or a 'checkup'. There should be no need for such service unless something prompted the owner to send it in. If it was a real old piece needing new caps and other refreshed components, I can understand, but I don't usually buy gear THAT old.
Just my thoughts on the topic. Is it just me, or do such ads raise red flags with any other buyers?
Follow Ups:
Abe, such suspicions. You have nothing to worry about; it's all good. Why, I have a limited edition Breitling chronograph that cost about the same as a small car and has not one but *seven* clean bills of health from Breitling. I just kept sending it back to get it cleaner and cleaner. That's my story an ah'm sticking to it.
Wanna buy a really clean watch?
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Damn Texans.
Interesting thread. No, it certainly does raise questions, but, as others have mentioned, it is not necessarily a signal of evil intentions.I have bought a couple of used ARC components -- SP-8 preamp and VT-100 Power amp. As soon as I got those components, both of which worked fine when I got them, I returned them to ARC for a checkup. Both had some work done, were checked out and returned to me in good shape. That's just me I guess.
My VT-100 recently had a tube taken out by a surge resulting in circuit board damage plus my tubes were very old at that point, so I had the unit repaired by ARC. It was returned with a glittering new set of tubes (look like fine jewelry) and an almost unnoticeable circuit board fix and sounding fabulous. (I am not an electronics hobbyist, and I am very grateful for companies like ARC that stand behind their products. I should say, too, that they were incredibly patient explaining their reasoning for the repairs they recommended, even sending me a photo of my unit in order to explain their thinking and recommendations. The repair evidenced a very high level of craftsmanship. That's service I appreciate!)
I agree that if I were to sell this component, I would feel obliged to provide the potential buyer with documentation of the recent work. To my mind, this would make the component more desirable not less so.
When I'm shopping for used equipment, I ALWAYS ask the seller if the unit has ever been in for repairs and, if so, to provide a detailed explanation of what was done and why it was repaired and by whom. I would want to see the repair bill. I also ask whether the unit is factory stock or has been modified, "tweaked" or otherwise altered. Asking lots of these kinds of questions, and reading/hearing the seller's responses are a good way to judge what sort of person you're dealing with. Vague or incomplete answers are a sure trigger for me to let that component go. I pay a lot of attention to my gut in these exchanges. If something doesn't feel right, I'll pass on the purchase.
Buying used is a great way to assemble a fabulous audio system at much lower than retail cost. Be careful, scope things out and usually things work out. Maybe I've been lucky, but I have bought an awful lot of used stuff and the only problems I've had were due to inept packaging resulting is shipping damage. Ask how the seller intends to package the item too!
Enjoy your music!
George
Edits: 10/21/14
If I was interested in the piece I would reach out to the seller to discover the nature of the maintenance. It may be resonable and desired.
I had for many years a McIntosh SS preamp that functioned perfectly except that the volume display had one faulty element. It bugged me and I suspected a good cleaning and general review was in oder. I had an authorized repair initiated through my dealer. The cost was small and it came back like new. I later sold the piece after another many years and mentioned the earlier service to the buyer. He was happy that I disclosed that.
have you installed Yosemite yet? If so, whaddya think?
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
Not yet. I tend not to be an early adopter of operating systems for a few reasons:
- I often wait a couple months for everyone else to find the bugs and give the developers time to release patches / updates.
When iOS8 came out for the iPhone around Sept 17 it had a few bugs, then a patch came out on Sept 24th which corrected them but created new problems. And now we have iOS 8.0.2. I waited for 8.0.2 to to be out for a couple weeks before installing it on my wife's phone and tablet. Granted, these are phone and tablet operating systems but I do the same with computer OS's. I wait a while.
Windows 8 was a mess. Windows 8.1 is less of a mess. ;-)
- Many of the applications I use for work, including some security apps, have not been tested against the new OS. I'll give our IT department a couple months to test before I move to the new OS.
I may install Yosemite on the music computer in a couple weeks to give it a try with Audirvana Plus or Pure Music.
I never did install Mountain Lion and waited on Mavericks until some bugs with iTunes were worked out.
Early reports are that Yosemite is bug-free, that even the beta versions were stable. I might jump on it.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...
Just curious.
I was posting a topic of interest and opening it up for civil conversation. Where do you see a "rant" in my post?
As for computer audio, personally, I don't buy used computer gear.
Nice to see a post by you.
Your OP wasn't a rant and very few of your posts have been in the past.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
Thanks.
Good seeing you here too!
You won't be seeing me over there for a couple weeks. ;-)
We'll be waiting for your return. Just ain't the same without ya!
Thanks.
I posted something over there with the approximate time frame that I thought it became a $#^thole. The 'date registered' that I posted alluded to one of the inmates who I often butt heads. I am not to post directly to him or make remarks 'alluding' to him. Them's the rules. I think this is what got me put in time-out.
I thought I deleted that post but maybe not soon enough and it caught the mod's eye. Oh well, I'll do my time and stay away until next month.
nt
Computer Audio Asylum seems to be at war these days between a self appointed sergeant at arms and some other inmates who are tired of his attempts to impose his views and only his views on the forum. Some of us sods think that maybe other points of view are valid too. Poor Chris is doing his best to keep things calm.
I have to admit, if the speakers linked below are yours they look very nice and I bet they also sound very nice, too! I can see you sticking with them for years on end.
Maybe I overlooked it in the thread, but who did your woodworking for you?
JE
I can't take credit for the beautiful workmanship. They are a couple of the many photo's on Linkwitz' web site.
http://linkwitzlab.com/LX521/PhotoGallery.htm
.... Because it sounds like BS.
*IF* a seller legitimately has sent in a piece of kit just to be sure (Like Dave Pogue has done) then surely if this is mentioned in the ad then an offer to show the relevant documentation to verify the same to any potential buyer should be made very clear.
Otherwise dangle your hook in front of another fish.
Luckily I have no need to worry about such nonsense.
:)
Smile
Sox
I really have to disagree with the basic premise that this is a no-no. In my experience, the trip back to the factory was treated as a major plus by my buyer and by at least half a dozen others who responded to my Audiogon ad. And no, I wasn't giving it away either. Must be more cynics here than in the general buying population, or something.
... This may just be a reflection on your good self.
The reality is some folks are believable and some folks are less believable.
Some folks have an intrinsic, although intangible, air of believability.
Smile
Sox
he lives close to the factory and they picked it up!
For the record, they didn't pick it up. I drove it across the Potomac to CJ's Northern Virginia location.
so the sales guy returned yours along with the new one?
"...CJ customer rep even brought over a brand new 17LS2"
I usually don't agree with honest abe. But this time I agree with him 100 percent. It's a red flag.
.
If a piece of purely electronic gear (the only moving parts are switches) is two or five years old and the owner says it was checked over by the factory but claims that it was working perfectly, either the guy is not being upfront, or, he is a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy who is paying a very expensive insurance premium.
And in either case, he should be prepared to email a scan of the invoice for the checkover with nothing but his credit card info and home phone number obscured.
I think it's a totally different story when you are dealing with a piece of gear 15 years old that had hours of use every day. I know a guy who spent IIRC $1100 on various switches, relays, diodes and capacitors on an expensive solid-state preamp that was 15 years old, and when he sold it less than two years later, the fact that the then 17 year old preamp had had that work done (and he was willing to show the invoice) got him a good price.
Was that price $1100 "gooder" than had he not had that work done?
DUNNO!
I also think that things that have mechanical parts like CD drawers and transports and so forth are an in-between case. A really sophisticated repair shop (like Pyramid in Texas) can go deep inside a CD player's workings and see how well its tracking etc. systems are working. Seeing as there are reports that PayPal will now allow buyers to try to unwind transactions 6 months old, to be able to say that a CD player was gone over and got a clean bill of health might be worth the money if it comes to a dispute that needs resolution.
Here's an example of what I mean about CD players; the quoted price is checkover and minimal refurb (shipping extra); a player with more needs can be $600.
START QUOTE:
Denon DN-951FA DN-961FA CD Player
We stock the bearings, the motors and the lasers so we can turn them around in a couple of days. We know how to (and always do) properly set the tracking and servo gain, which most people don’t do. We have done hundreds if not thousands of these repairs over the last 20 years. Ok I looked it up, 1185 so far. Isn't it time to pull the barely working spare off the shelf and get it repaired?
High performance can be lowered by poor service. Watch out for the counterfeit laser that looks like the KSS-240a but has a 8 pin optical detector instead of 24 pins. The fake also has a different connector, not bad, just different and a red flag this is not the real thing Expect to pay $75 for the real thing 499 0191 009 also available at www.pacparts.com . The gears in the counterfeit aren’t cut very well and can be noisy.
Don't skip the laser alignment, which consists of setting the tracking and focus servo gains. We use an Audio Precision test set that makes it easy. Properly done the result is a clean Lissajous pattern. Afterwards the tracking error should look like a noise line with the track crossing centered on the line. Anything else and the $24 spindle motor bearing 425 0186 013 should be replaced. The RF signal should also be at least 900 mV peak to peak with a clear "eye" pattern.
Isn't it time to get it done right? This typical $199 repair includes replacing the laser and bearing, alignment and cleaning.
END QUOTE
ATB,
JM
Obviously something was wrong with the component to be sent back to the manufacturer. It does not stand to reason that anyone would go to the trouble, expense and risk of sending something back to "get a clean bill of health" to sell the piece if it was in fine fiddle.
I saw a nice fable on Audiogon a few weeks ago where the seller came up with "unit sent back to manufacturer for check-up and retuning" I believed at first that it read "retubing" because that makes sense, but "retuning"?
I am afraid that an amp ain't no piano. Too many audiophiles have become unhinged in a hobby that is now faith based.
I have a problem with buying used gear at all. Why the heck is someone selling it? In my experiences I've only on a couple of occasion sold gear I "loved" - normally I sell gear that sucks.
To answer you query maybe the seller thought the equipment sucked so bad he sent it back so the manufacturer could confirm it was working as designed before he sold it. I had to do that with my Sota sapphire - took it into the dealer cause I thought it was broke. Nope working perfect - agree it sounded like every Sota I've ever heard. Lucky when I was checking out at the front counter some guy bought the deck/arm from me for $250. Jeez gave it away to save me the hassle of having to sell it. But what the hey - the dealer confirmed it was working to spec right?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
falls into that category. The difference is that it was from a friendly and knowledgeable Sound Lab dealer (Duke) and I wanted the backplates upgraded to "Hot Rod" specs.
I felt confident knowing that the speakers were recently tuned and sent to me by the factory.
On the other hand, I understand what you're talking about and wondered the same thing. Dave Pogue's explanation is good, but that seems to be a very expensive insurance policy to fend off returns.
The situation was admittedly weird. I had this CJ Premier 17LS2 that muted pretty much every time I touched it. Or touched anything metallic in the system. I live near CJ, and the CJ customer rep even brought over a brand new 17LS2. I touched it and it went mute.
I managed to live with this but had a pair of Gallo Reference 3 speakers that were extremely sensitive to changes in polarity (as confirmed by a Gallo VP) and wanted a preamp/linestage with a polarity switch. Thus, my Aesthetix Calypso, which has never exhibited the muting problem.
The 17LS2 went to CJ to check whether the constant muting had in any way affected its operation. It hadn't.
I had this CJ Premier 17LS2 that muted pretty much every time I touched it. Or touched anything metallic in the system.
I would consider that a problem (internal short of some sort?) requiring remedy. That would drive me nuts!
The ONLY explanation for the constant-muting issue is at least as weird as the problem itself. Earlier, I had had radiation and radioactive seed implantation for prostate cancer. My friends suggested that I was probably glowing in the dark. In any event, this made for at least a convenient explanation of what was going on with the CJ preamp. At least no one has ever come up with a better explanation. I even took the preamp to a friend's house, we put it in his system, and I muted it there by touching it. My friend was unable to duplicate this.
And yeah, it drove me nuts.
If I pay postage both ways, can I send my ex-wife to you and have you perform your magic?
Not illogical at all Dave. Some pre-amp(s) are more sensitive than others.
However, there was one time it did sound okay though.
And that was when I bought a used Basis Vector tonearm from this fellow back East.
The tonearm was with AJ Conti, @ Basis Audio, as AJ had just sold this fellow a Work of Art turntable, and he was parting out the table he used to have.
(And AJ was nice enough to repackage the tonearm, and include all the little tools, and silicon fluid, and other miscellaneous items that originally came packaged with it. I don't doubt that a manufacturer would do that when he sells someone a $50+K turntable setup!)
That is the only time that I did not feel leery buying something that "had just come back from the manufacturer for a checkup".
it was more dependable than new stuff many times. More often than not,new stuff is sent in simply because people don't know how to operate it with all the complicated electronics on the remote and setup.It can no longer be sold as new simply because it was opened and plugged in..
"
Or 'B-stock'.
This is something that broke so many times the manufacturer said, 'screw it, we'll give them a new piece'.
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
I sent a CJ preamp back to the factory for that very reason before selling it.
Also, in this age where a seller can claim that you sent him a defective product and demand that you make it right (he, of course, is the sole judge of its "rightness") it can be comforting to send a factory-sealed package.
Understandible Abe-
but, with some many companies making their wares w/ china parts, or worse, building the pieces of gear in china, it is not hard to decipher why the gear needs repairing.
It does sound suspect but whatever the problem might have been, isnt it OK since there is a clean bill of health now? It could be like a car getting serviced with some new parts put in. We dont know what all has been done on an equipment unless the seller shows us the repair charts.
Some of the stuff we buy here may be refurbished in the Chinese factory but they are sold as new. From the sound of the speakers I conclude their refurbishing is not up to par.
Cheers
Bill
Hi Abe,
I agree I would not send a component back to the manufacturer to be "checked out" unless it was something with an unusual reputation for failures, in which case I doubt I'd own it in the first place.
But I recently had an operational status light fail and not wanting to sell anything not working perfectly I sent that back. If a potential buyer asks about condition details I will disclose that it was repaired and checked out. With this company that is apparently their standard procedure anyway.
As for never having been sent back for repairs, yes that could be ideal, but it might depend on the age of the unit.
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
I agree with your initial impression and have often skipped over a listing with that or a similar phrase - excepting a few issues-
High quality tuners that have been aligned, McIntosh gear that has been to one of the following: Terry DeWick, Audio Classics, or a McIntosh Clinic....
Happy shopping
I've seen that and wonder sometimes. Ultimately there is no way to know for sure unless the seller sends a receipt for service/checkout performed. I can see it being of value only on expensive gear. Some people do want things checked before they sell them but my guess is they represent less than 10% of sellers, probably a lot less. I reserve the right to be wrong!
ET
Edits: 10/20/14
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