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Anyone that's sold cars for a living, including the past 15 years when women increasingly have had $$$ of their own, knows that sports cars are very, very low on the female wish list. Big SUVs are the preferred vehicle. I'd suggest it's hormonal: safe triumphs adrenaline-rush. I know it's common for guys to opine that exotic sports cars are aphrodisiacs to women, but I've never known a woman who'd prefer riding in a Porsche to riding in a Mercedes sedan. Few enjoy squishing in, being thrown about, being scared.
I'd argue there similarly is a gender difference that explains why women don't care about game boys, electronics, and audio anywhere near how males do.
These differences begin at a very early age.
So, right off the bat, 1/2 of a potential market base is lost. Add to that the continuing emergence of screen toys and convenient ways to experience music and it indeed looks bleak for traditional high-end audio.
What's the future?
Netflix became popular when it simplified the system: basically, you just point and touch and get a film on demand. You interact with one machine, your television.
When high quality downloads are that simplified, when you go to one device and presto! you call up whatever music selection you want and immediately begin listening, that will be huge.
Copying all one's library to digital domain, accessing sites to find high def, interfacing several pieces of equipment----- that's a non-starter for the general public.
Evolve or die.
So far, it appears that the older guys running the high end audio industry think doing more of the same will lead to different outcomes. Meanwhile, the market shrinks and shrinks and shrinks with negligible interest from the younger generations….
Follow Ups:
Just out of sheer curiosity, I asked 2 high end audio dealers I know very well.
Sales have picked up on the medium level. On the exceptionally high level, it's been going on in the same way mainly with a little downwards trend in the last 10 years.
The current sales increase in vinyl can only reflect in high-end audio sales in 5-10 years I presume. First of all, we have to see if this increase is a fad or a real market that will grow. Also the younger generation has to get going financially to start investing in high-end stuff.
However, even if a good percentage of the current potentials start getting into high-end, the market will surely flourish in the upcoming future. I don't see any reason to be creatively (Based on examples given) pessimistic about it.
Suhan
Not a lost cause.
But I do think by retreating into rarefied air, it has limited its market in a world awash in on demand entertainment.
I do think the younger generation will come to it ... when they are older.
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Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
"I do think the younger generation will come to it ... when they are older."
I cannot think of anyone who first got interested in audio after age 25..........
... I got my first high end rig when I was 35!
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Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
First, I collected Shortwave Radios.
Then I collected Ham Radios.
Then I collected Japanese Radios.
Then I got a Life!
I'm back to collecting Radios ;-)
So, you really think it starts that early??
I think that, for this discussion to have meaning, we must separate high end from high fidelity. It is possible to attain the latter while avoiding the former. Out of necessity, I did so until I was older - too many responsibilities and too much competing for my limited funds. I did the best I could, but purchasing an $18,000 amplifier (for instance) had to wait until I sailed past 50.
Of course, 'high end' has been shifting upward the entire time I've been into music reproduction. Today's high end gear is, indeed, stratospheric in price. How could that not limit its market? On the other hand, the wealthy have never been wealthier or greater in number. Ergo, although high end has escalated into rarefied air, that's precisely where its market is.
Fortunately for those of us who are not flush with cash, those who are seem to be rather restless. When the latest and greatest is introduced, last year's high end finds its way to the used market. As a matter of fact, that's precisely how I purchased the aforementioned amplifier, which means that I 'only' paid half that amount. I couldn't buy used high end gear unless someone purchased it new.
The high end, by definition, is, was and forever will be a marginal market. All of the indicators I see, however, suggest that it's less marginal today, even as it rises farther out of the reach of the hoi polloi, than it was a decade or two ago. High fidelity (at least, as it was formerly defined) can be found on lower shelves than in the past.
"The high end, by definition, is, was and forever will be a marginal market. All of the indicators I see, however, suggest that it's less marginal today, even as it rises farther out of the reach of the hoi polloi, than it was a decade or two ago. High fidelity (at least, as it was formerly defined) can be found on lower shelves than in the past."
I think it is possible to assemble a great sounding stereo system for less now than 10 years ago, 10 years ago you could put together an unapologetically good system for $5-8k. Now? You could put one together for about $2-3k, perhaps even less. It certainly isn't chump change, but it is more affordable to those that care now more than ever.
And, with the high end headphones sales continuing to boom (though signs of it levelling off are not ignorable) and the success of Pono, and the vinyl revival - all for better sound quality - you can put together a probable scenario where a traditional home stereo will figure more prominently in a family than in the last 25 years.
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Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
It appears that you can beat a dead horse at least as well as the best of them.
axolotl
Edits: 04/18/14
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
nt
and a good bit of that came from the magazines. Detail has been the holy grail and stressed over tone and flow, not to mention over aestetics and ergonomics. In the end it killed the industry.
Everyone bought a new TV when they became so thin that they could hang on a wall. But amps are the size of compact refrigerators and have so much detail at the expense of tone that one has to own three perfectly recorded Diana Krall records and call it a day.
Needless to say, I have no sympathy for the manufacturers, retailers or reviewers. Or the audiophiles for that matter, however many of them are left.
This may seem hilarious to you.
I went for powerconditioners, cords, IC, better electronics. Magnepan ribbons.. All sorts ofstuff to finally getthat elusive perfect treble clarity.
Now I am tryingto KEEP it and still gain a little midrange warmth.
Though I have to say I can live with what I have now...
I wonder if you would be able to stay in the same room as my system playing for more than five minutes... (the only 'added' clarity I find annoying is I can hear all too clearly way too many jazz players softly talking or making noises along with the music... Aka Glenn Gould)
nt
and we all hear differently and have different priorities.
I'm not sure that you would want to spend too much time in my room with the Altec 19s or JBL Apollos and small tube amps either. But we all have a love of music and that it what cements us together.
> > I've never known a woman who'd prefer riding in a Porsche to riding in a Mercedes sedan.
How sad for you.
There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.
—Leonard Cohen
d
Not to worry all,
High-End audio is a hobby, a niche' at best. I love it, but it is not for everyone (unfortunately).
High-end audio will always be in demand as long as there are music enthusiasts who choose to listen as a focused activity, not just having music in the background. I don't see that demand ever disappearing, but it will always be a minority activity among the myriad options for free time.
I see it is properly euthanized..
Ain't got no expensive stuff. All vintage.
All is folly.
High end audio is dying only because the music most people listen to in recent time doesn't make them want to reproduce it with improved fidelity..... It has nothing to do with gender, generation, or income class.
Part of the problem is the digitization of audio, and the audio industry's failure to provide higher-resolution playback methods (at least CD quality) that yield widespread enjoyment of the music. (There are some isolated cases of enjoyment of music via such playback, but nothing widespread.) Some might argue the trends in popular music were influenced by audio playback problems (where for example, only "loud" sounds impressive), and I won't discount that either.
From an audiophile perspective, I find the evolution of digital audio playback disappointing, where the quality of playback has been going sideways in most part, if not backwards. I still think the most enjoyable digital audio playback rests in 1990s-vintage CD playback, which I use exclusively in the non-computer environments.
A big part of the problem is a music industry generally bereft of decent talent, capable of long-term staying power. Transient, mindless fluff is the name of the game now. Unless or until there's a musical revolution similar to the Beatles and the British invasion of the mid-60's, high-end audio will continue to lose ground to mainstream formats of portability and convenience, suitable for the playback of the current crop of Justin Bebers, Brittany Spears and their musical clones.
Grammar: The difference between feeling your nuts, and feeling you're nuts.
I think you nailed it.... BUT.....
With the mainstream media so omnipresent, and its powerful influence in dictating who is to be popular in today's entertainment, I doubt a masses-driven "invasion" a la the Beatles will ever happen again.
Take a top end rock act like Porcupine Tree, for example. What is preventing this act from gaining mainstream recognition? Those who are familiar with the act jump on buying tickets or albums at given opportunities. (And also the few young people into quality audio being into these acts.) But the mainstream media totally ignores these acts. In contrast to the days of the British Invasion. And I think they're ignored because those running the mainstream media know that these acts would totally displace the darlings that they want to remain popular. Not to mention these darlings possibly being exposed as hacks or frauds. Which in turn could ultimately destroy the perceived credibility of the mainstream entertainment complex.
Do the Porcupine Tree singles have more musical dynamics than the You-tube that I found?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
As with most bands, the recordings are variable..... Generally decent sonics, and somewhat compressed..... No better or worse than most studio rock recordings. It's not like some Camel or earlier Aleks Syntek recordings, which happen to be sonic marvels. (Recent Syntek recordings are awful.)"Deadwing" and "Fear of a Blank Planet" is two of Porc's better recordings, if sonics/dynamics is a top priority.
Edits: 04/18/14
It has absolutely nothing to do with the music being produced these days, and nothing to do with digital media.
People have simply moved on to other interests apart from audio systems. There was a day when the flashy audio system was a status symbol. I suspect it's still that for many of the 50, 60 and 70-somethings who prop up what remains of the industry. But for others, there are so many other financial demands, hobbies and interests chasing their dollars that investing in a high dollar audio system is one of the last things on their minds.
"It has absolutely nothing to do with the music being produced these days, and nothing to do with digital media."
Those in the mainstream are not much interested in high-end audio, because they don't get additional satisfaction listening to their own music. Those aware of the high-end community go as far as to wonder what the point is to reproduce the music with greater resolution... There are hardly any textures in recent popular music that would make them appreciate the sound reproduction.
"People have simply moved on to other interests apart from audio systems."
Since sound reproduction is no longer a big deal in enjoying popular music, such behavior is inevitable.
"There was a day when the flashy audio system was a status symbol."
Although I've known people who took pride in the visual appearance of their audio systems, I've never encountered someone who treated it as a "status symbol"... To where his primary motive was to "wow" anyone who gets to see or hear it. (I'm not saying they don't exist, I've just never encountered anyone like that.)
"I suspect it's still that for many of the 50, 60 and 70-somethings who prop up what remains of the industry. But for others, there are so many other financial demands, hobbies and interests chasing their dollars that investing in a high dollar audio system is one of the last things on their minds."
Some of these systems are not necessarily "high dollar".... And I often suggest budget options for quality sound reproduction. But if the interest isn't there, you can give someone a system and he'd likely opt not to use it.
... Maybe in your myopic view high-end audio is in trouble but I think high-end audio has never been better and never has so much high-end audio been readily available from all over the world.
Your silly analogy with cars and women is typical of a self-serving, narrow-minded, Henny Penny type, old fart.
Life is good, the sun will set, the sun will rise, enjoy life while you can instead of wanting to predict the demise of things.
Cheers.
Smile
Sox
better describe an inmate who isn't aware of a major topic discussed by dozens of his fellows who rue the slacking of the industry.
Pull your head out of the sand, if indeed that's where you've inserted it. Australia is too far away to sense if it's in another place.
Edits: 04/18/14
I strongly disagree with your view about high-end audio.
"an inmate who isn't aware of a major topic discussed by dozens of his fellows who rue the slacking of the industry"
Gosh! Dozens have your same Henny Penny, doom & gloom, whingey, winey, pessimistic outlook? Again, Gosh!
World-wide audio sales are doing very well. Didn't you know?
It has never been easier to buy audio equipment from all over the world.
You can wallow in your own self-serving misery but your level of pessimism is commensurate with your age.
"Australia is too far away to sense if it's in another place."
Really? Oh, I forgot, Americans are so well travelled and know everything about every subject everywhere in the world. No non-American has ever accused an American of being myopic or xenophobic, have they? :o)
You are a funny little old codger. Enjoy what life you have left.
Life is good, for me at least.
Long live high-end audio!
Smile
Sox
that poor ol' Tinear has lost his toy jones?
IF we're lucky, he'll soon loose his troll jones as well!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
I thought that was the subject of your complaint: he loosed his 'troll' jones. Perhaps, the word you should have typed was lose. What you typed instead has precisely the opposite meaning. Grammar is important.
The lack of respect demonstrated in this and many other threads in this forum is disappointing. If you disagree with tinear's points, they can be respectfully refuted. So, he made an observation and expressed his opinion. Where's the harm in that? I disagree with his opinion, but I see no reason to lay the 'troll' insult upon him. He made a reasoned argument which has some good points. If you wish to change his opinion, counter with a reasoned argument of your own.
I am ashamed.I (and many others) have countered Tinear's repetitious posts often enough to seemingly little, if no avail.
At some point the repetition must (or at least should) qualify as some form of trolling, no?
Maybe not to you, but it certainly does to me.
At that point I will respond as I see fit.Thank you.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Edits: 04/19/14
...as I visit the general forum less than most. In recent months, I've not visited any of the asylum forums as much as in past years. Life has been hectic lately.
I must also confess less than admirable behavior on the planar asylum in years past. A certain individual 'pushed my buttons' (pseudo-science really gets under my skin) and I responded in kind, so I suppose my comment was more than a bit hypocritical. I felt every bit as justified as you do in this case.
I'm sorry that I get so hung up on grammar, but I was raised by a grammar Nazi (from whom Alzheimer's has completely eradicated the ability to communicate). I think I drive most of the people I know a bit crazy with my insistence on precision with language, but living in a hellhole of the south, my ears are inundated with gross abuses of English. In this case, I just found it amusing that the spelling actually inverted the intended statement.
Yes, if repeated logical rebuttals fail to adjust an errant viewpoint, frustration is to be expected. Each of us is 'programmed' by a particular set of memes, some of which are difficult to shed. That feeling of being right infects us all. As with most things, this is a complicated topic which is challenging to see clearly. I don't mean to suggest that my opinion is any less tenuous than his, but I see the situation through different lenses. In my view, the high end is healthier than ever.
they dedicate much of it to following me around, snipping at every post. Occasionally, I give them a boot, but it can be boring.
The forth last sentence in tin's post you linked explains it all;
"Guess I've gotten old."
It seems inmate, tinear, is on the downward spiral of perpetual pessimism.
I'm not buying it.
I am very much a 'here & now' kind of guy. The glass is always half full etc, etc.
Today it is very easy to buy great sounding audio equipment for little more than pocket change. (depending on the size of one's pockets)
Audio is doing fine IMHO.
I am very aware of times past. I collect antiques and have many pieces from the seventeen hundreds. Whilst I appreciate the fine craftsmanship of the era I have no desire whatsoever to live in the seventeen hundreds. Give me climate control & automated everything any day! d:o)
I enjoy my audio equipment. Technology allows us to run computer based audio into five different areas of the house. Teenagers, twenty-somethings, mum plus dad can all happily listen to their own musical tastes simultaneously or independently. (Try doing that in the 50s & 60s)
It is has just gone 5pm, Saturday, here in Oz. As it happens we have about 10 young people in the house, split into two groups and they are both listening to their own music. Us oldies will be cranking up the main rig shortly and no doubt, as usually happens, the kids will eventually merge, for a short time at least, into where we are listing to our "oldies" music!
Life's good, as in the audio industry.
My dear Mr Tap, you and yours enjoy the weekend and beyond.
Cheers!
Smile
Sox
My wife prefers to ride in the Porsche....but the top can never come down. (perfection in hair is a necessity)
Oh, sorry, did you say something we've heard so many times before?
Maybe the first dozen times it was somewhat interesting; now it isn't.
There will always be some form of a market for high end audio.
The lost cause is your babbling about it.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
they seem to appear with regularity.
I was not going to participate but when you did, I had to, too.
I've read your previous speculations.
Be nice if they were computer generated, then perhaps
we could find some tech method to block them.
Alas, I think there are actual human beings behind
these posts and THAT just doesn't bode well.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
That girl that posted takes this stuff way too serious! It must be that time of the month! She will be ok in a few days.
Edits: 04/18/14
High-end audio will continue to thrive even as it's customer base is shrinking. Fewer of us can afford it, but those who can buy will be spending and splurging more ridiculously than ever.
Personally, I hope they stuff themselves to the gills with high-end audio. I want them all to gorge on high-end audio until they barf, so that I can buy more good and affordable gear. Trickle-down technology! Performance gaps that continue to narrow over time! Eventually, the differences between high-end and affordable may entirely consist of miniscule refinements.
...again or still?
...again or still?
or maybe a numerology thing?
Medication lapse?
Moon phase?
Anyway, it's still and a pattern.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
nt
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