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In Reply to: RE: High Resolution - Fact posted by Ralph on April 09, 2014 at 09:57:29
"Of course, the highest bit rate we have used is still no match for the LP (we have an LP mastering operation on site in the studio, see the link) in the resolution department. But I have to assume that for this thread that is getting off topic."
What do you mean by no match for the LP?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Follow Ups:
We've seen that plenty of times.
Of course, if an LP is done in a sloppy fashion, that is the problem with that particular LP, not *all* LPs. People often exercise a Hasty Generalization in this regard...
Something most people don't know is that if you have a good lathe cut, its devoid of surface noise- all phono sections will have more noise. The noise comes in from sloppy pressing practices. One house that is exceptional (IOW state-of-the-art) is QRP in Salinas, Kansas. They have done work to their pressing machines to kill vibration as the LP is cooling, and they have noise floors similar to the lathe cuts. They can be so quiet its spooky!
Obviously we do analog and digital recordings side by side. We have yet to have a client prefer the digital presentation- the differences are pretty obvious.
Or are we talking about something that requires a subjective appraisal?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
So far all the talk I see bandied about suggests that resolution is a subjective term. There are of course the specs:
You can suggest resolution in the digital world with bits and scan frequencies- generally speaking the higher the better.
With analog its a different animal- bandwidth, noise, distortion all play a role (and BTW, in a lathe cut you have more bandwidth and lower distortion that you do with digital, although in practical terms more noise as the phono reproducer will be the primary noise generator and the limit is about -90 db or so). This is because noise and distortion will block detail due to the ear's masking principle.
People are often surprised at how low the distortion can be on an LP; let's put it this way- its impossible to overload the cutter amplifiers. By the time they make about 10% of full power they will have toasted the cutterhead. And the cutterhead can make nice clean cuts that no cartridge would ever have a hope of tracking long before its overloaded.
I can't say for certain that the things I've listed are indeed the whole story- for example although you loose phase information with less bandwidth, things can still sound pretty good if it only goes to 20KHz before it rolls. We can put 30KHz on our lathe cuts easily enough and it plays back fine on a modest turntable. 20Hz on the bottom end isn't the limit either. The mechanical resonance of the pickup is the limiter there.
Consequently I go for 'subjective experience' even though the specs favor analog by about 70%. I just don't think the specs that we use today tell the whole story. If they did, we would be able to tell how a product sounds just by looking at the paper. But that is a topic for a whole 'nuther thread!
Hey Ralph, got an off-topic question for ya, but first... Your Ampex 351 and Scully lathe are taking me way back! My old friend George Johnston (long passed away) in Oshkosh, WI used that same stuff! As a high school & college kid, it was always fun to go over to his house and talk about recording and watch him run his lathe. Good times! He inspired me to get into the audio biz.
Anyway...
There used to be companies like KM Records in New Jersey which would do "one-off" or short run (100-200) LP pressings. Does anyone do that anymore? Just curious. Thanks.
:)
A lot of local bands do short run. Our first LP (Thunderbolt Pagoda) was 360 copies. So the pressing houses do that, but the pricing is rough- generally you will barely break even with an LP around 300 copies assuming you have them priced right.
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