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I just watched the BET awards show and the acts were horrific. What happened to all the great black groups?
Follow Ups:
Same thing that happened to rock. Two words: "Public Enemy."
It was good, it was innovative, it was black, and it wasn't more R&B and soul.
Punk happened to rock. Public Enemy happened to soul.
It was good.
And Gamble/Huff & Philly International, towards the end, didn't help. They also went uptempo/danceable while ripping the heart out of it. I grew up in Philly and consider the prime Philly soul to be the earlier stuff before it became over-commercialized. I listened to to old tome black owned am soul stations (WDAS and WHAT).
One could feel the soul music being disco-ized right in front of their eyes and ears. A sad state of affairs.
Just about EVERYONE sold out to disco..when Earth Wind and Fire came out with 'Boogey wonderland' I wanted to throw up and crawl under a rock..it wasn't until years later I read Maurice White was essentially given an ultimatum from his record lable; produce a 'disco friendly' tune or he would find the majority of his group's funding/support going to another artist...his response; "I didn't like it, but the guys in the band had to eat too"..
Ditto for rockers like Rod Stewart, the Rolling Stones, hell even Paul McCartney...I gave up at this point in rock and/or soul music as I knew it, it was almost like wittnessing an old friend die before my eyes.But I also feel at the end of the day a LOT of blame can be dished out...It's all about airwaves, demographics, and yes...the almighty dollar. And when the 80's finally came around and abandoned disco, a lot of record producers, artist and lables were found standing around in a cocaine induced haze wondering what the hell had just happened and never fully recovered from the huge gap left behind.
Lots of contributing factors come into play when speaking of the gargantum shift in traditional soul music compared to what's played today; here are just a few in my opinion:
-the aforementioned disco wave
-the emergence of rap, and most importantly its acceptance and cross-over appeal to white audiences
-MTV and its eventual acceptance of black artist which spawned 'Yo MTV raps' thus making rap music 'cool' and ironically a turning point (and some feel 'sell out') of rap music in itself.
-the almost overnight elimination of the standard horn section in a group
-drum machines
-sampling
-'scratching'
-lables closing the door on the 'older' song writers, welcoming in the new
-kids unwillingness to learn new instruments, instead using digital keyboards.
And who knows, perhaps hundreds of other contributing factors that come into play behind the scenes in which artist and management deal with on a daily basis.Just my opinion..
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Edits: 07/10/12 07/11/12
Sounds like times changed and we got old!
What is this Boo-Gee Woo-Gee music you are talking about?
The OJays, Spinners, Four tops, Barry White, Commodores, Otis Redding,Jackie Wilson, Chi-Lites, Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfield, Teddy Pendergrass, Just to name a few.
This is "Soul" music or at very least "Rhythm and Blues"
What happened to it? The great artists that produced Soul in the 60's and 70's mostly passed away without other great artists to take their place. Now the few singer/ songwriters that still make Soul/R&B records are mostly not as talented, and don't get much airplay. Also the undying proliferation of HiP Hop and Rap captured the young listening public, both Black and White. So there aren't many new listeners out their growing up on Soul music the way my generation did. Kids today grow up listening to Top 40 Pop, Hip Hop, and Rap.
And that goes for Rock music as well. The rock of today can no way live up to what the bands of the 60's and 70's did.
Well, I highly recommend "Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)" by the Wu-Tang Clan as being an excellent example of post-soul so called "black" music. At least it will get you in the mood and desensitize you to the point that you can listen to stuff like Public Enemy without being totally without a reference.
In other words it's (in my mind at least) kind of like Frank Zappa's "Reuben and the Jets" era, equally literate and a VERY political statement that says, this is where Black music is going.
It was, uh, groundbreaking in 1993, that was 20 years ago dude, where have you been?
"I just watched the BET awards show and the acts were horrific. What happened to all the great black groups?"
I guess they're waiting on you to discover them. There's a lot of great 'black' music being made today. Your job is to discover it. Don't expect to 'discover' it while vegetating on the couch, though. Go out, talk to people, attend live shows.
The awards shows have always been horrific and atrocious. That's not new.
Berry Gordy was reluctant to hire Norman Whitfield in the early 60's since his brand of song writing was considered too 'controversal','offensive', and 'militant' and was afraid he'd scare away his fan-base PoP audience, but decided to anyway; and created the 'Gordy label' to create some distance from the Motown power house acts (Supremes, Jackson 5, Smokey Robinson, Four Tops, etc,.) just in case his hunch back-fired.The result, IMO is a collection of songs that forever re-shaped the Soul,R&B landscape.
One of the most notable, the song 'War' sung by Edwin Starr- considered a masterpiece anti-war anthem..
His other hits are far too long to list but easy to recognize: "ball of confusion", "Cloud-9", "pyschedelic shack" (think of post Supremes, late 60's Motown and you've got a Whitfield song).Wiki or Amazon Norman Whitfield, and get re-aquainted with some of his classics..
One of my favorites is 'Memories' by the Temptations; written by Whitfield (released not long after Barbara Streisand's hit but carries no resemblence); it has an incredible string arraingment and showcases each member's powerful vocal range; another masterpiece IMO.
But to answer your question: Brother, they just don't make em' like that anymore...We're talkin' a different time and a whole different set of circumstances which sparks this kind of genius.
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Edits: 07/09/12 07/09/12
Great never equaled popular.
Its very rare to see/hear great music at Award Shows.
As in, "What happened to white music?", and you may, if you have an ounce of insight and decency, realize what a despicable, and offensive, question that is.
Jim
Simplify.
Edits: 07/09/12
I can only shake my head....it's unbelievable how race elicits such emotion.....
Don't mention race again or as Achmed says "I KILL YOU" :)
HEY, EVERYBODY!!!! You have COMPLETELY missed the incredible significance of this thread posted by Sudz!!!
He may not be a hopeless jerk/troll after all! He's taken that first, tiny step that gives us a glimmer of hope that he can join in a rational conversation about all things audio after all!
Not only has he even responded to a post in his thread, he actually used a QUESTION MARK in his opening post! HOSANNAH!
Damn! Who would have thought we'd live long enough to see this?
:)
When you can no longer recognize the music or understand the words of the Billboard top 100 you have gotten old. As Tom said in his post the product being produced by the Big Record labels it marginal at best. Compression, auto tune et al make for some thin anemic sound. Furthermore today's bands sound like cookie cutter compies of each other. Just buy one record in each genre and you pretty much have the sound of the current generation.
From most of the acts you named, the quality has gone up in recent years.
Thanks for not listing Al Jolson, however.
The same thing that happened to all popular music, a confluence of several things.One sacrifice Reagan made to win the cold war of attrition with the Russians was to axe musical education in our schools. With so many not being exposed to music or instruments, MANY fewer got into playing anything and then making music. The concert industry has shrunk dramatically over the last 20-30 years for example.
At the same time, like our HMO's in the medical area, we have had the Wallmartization of the industry, instead of hundreds of smaller competing record labels each promoting artists they think might be successful, the big ones bought up the small ones. Only a few large companies dominate the industry now. The result is greater margins and profitability but for the consumer vastly less choice, many fewer bands on tour and much less musical variety as the bands chosen to succeed must fit within a bracket.
Now with so few actually being able to play anything real,electronic short cuts allow the marginal performer to be "in tune", instead of bands being able to play live, many depend on studio tricks to sound acceptable or to perform at all.
These are part of what lead from "Motown sound" to the rhythmic bitching and minimal musical content that was so popular a few years ago.
Add to that the industry decision to pander to the mp3 format and compact audio and one see's why we have the loudness wars and such dismal pop recordings, dynamically crippled in a day when the technology has never been better.It's (recording technology) something like finally perfecting paper just as the artists switched from oils and colors to finger painting with feces.
Best,
(in live sound since the 70's)
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
Edits: 07/07/12 07/07/12
...clueless post.
I for one agree with almost every thing he says. I think maybe you are the clueless one.
"To Do Is To Be" Socrates
"To Be Is To Do" Plato
"Do Be Do Be Do" Sinatra
Perhaps its a mater of perspective.
Having worked in live sound most of my life (since the early 70's) and having parents working at the local high school, i can only give my impressions of what they and i saw. In that same era, most of the shop classes were cut and then gym classes.
Our local schools are some of the few that still have mandatory phys ed and full music programs.
Perhaps i simply saw a different side of it than you did.
Any one who knows what happened in the L.A. inner city school system would know that your post was not, at all, clueless. One day there were band classes and lockers of instruments and such and then one day, it was gone. Lockers locked up, instruments inaccessible, nothing to do and nowhere to go after school, at least for those children who wanted to to productive things in the arts. It was called Proposition 13 and it was implemented by then- California Governor Ronald Reagan. You could not in fact be more correct and though I've long ago left the state I see where they are working now on ruining one of the best if not the best public University systems in the world. Closed libraries on the weekends, etc. A pity.
It happened here too (Illinois), i recall someone on NPR saying that cutting 3 feet off of just one of the nuclear subs they bought would have saved all of the school cuts, that the subs cost more than their weight in gold..
Even that sacrifice i wouldn't have had a problem with if it ended the cold war AND THEN they restored the programs, but they didn't.
The "peace dividend" was apparently too attractive to those in power to allow and our burn rate "to be ready" for war is larger than ever while the genuine threat smaller than ever, now we search for justification to be everywhere militarily and in many of those places we are not wanted.
Remember the audience side of the curtain is an entirely different view than from the performing side of the curtain. Both impressions of a performance are valid and accurate based on the frame of reference.
Many things fall into this strange "it depends" situation.
Tom Danley
FWIW, the money isn't going to the military, which takes a lower percentage of GDP than it did during the cold war. The big increase is in the cost of Medicare and Medicaid. The Dems won't abolish these programs and the Republicans keep cutting taxes. So . . .
Good one. Our victory over the Soviets forced us to decrease the opportunities we have historically invested in black music education. I'll tell Louis Armstrong and Robert Johnson about that.
Now, if only we had something like the internet, where people could go and discover new music at an unprecedented rate.
As an aside - as audiophiles, we must share the blame then, 90% of what we purchase and promote is either the rehashing the same old stuff on heavier and heavier vinyl or pandering to the tone deaf by shoving insipid female vocalists down our families' throats.
;D
Pandering to MP3 and CD?
Really?
MP3 and CD...are they as bad as the AM radios we carried around as kids?
How about the AM radios people grew up listening to up until the rise of FM in the 60's? Did AM radio kill Duke Ellington in the 30's?
How about those 7" 45's we'd play in a stack?
Did the poor sound quality of 78's kill jazz and blues?
How did we overcome all those impediments to black music's success in the past?
Implicating MP3 and CD's in the 'death' of black music...I give that a 'zero' impact.
"Good one. Our victory over the Soviets forced us to decrease the opportunities we have historically invested in black music education. I'll tell Louis Armstrong and Robert Johnson about that."
Your eagerness to see what you think into what i wrote caused you to overshoot the mark. I didn't say there were no opportunities, but that there are fewer musicians now. read the linked reply it saves typing.
"One sacrifice Reagan made to win the cold war of attrition with the Russians was to axe musical education in our schools."
That's a new one...... Can you point to any legislation he signed which actually axed musical education in our schools?
The sad part of statements like this is that those of the liberal ideology will believe it without challenge. For to them, advancing the ideology is more important than factual correctness.
(This is the number one reason why I don't think I could ever become a liberal.)
I can name one such legislation if you'll kindly see my post above. Proposition 13, when he was Governor of California. It killed state- funded arts in the public schools in California. I had first hand experience.
"I can name one such legislation if you'll kindly see my post above. Proposition 13, when he was Governor of California. It killed state- funded arts in the public schools in California. I had first hand experience."
When Prop. 13 passed in 1978, Jerry Brown was the governor, not Reagan.
The last time I checked, Calif. Proposition 13 wasn't to fund the cold war, and didn't axe music education..........
It was also a state-wide vote by the people, not legislation signed by the governor.
So much for "first hand experience".
Hi-
Not to belabor the point, which you are correct about- and besides this is way off topic so I'll leave it alone- but Howard Jarvis and Reagan were joined at the hip and as popular as Prop 13 was at the time in Cali it might be as unpopular now. And it is identified with Reagan:
http://www.hjta.org/tied-together-moon-and-tides
It had to happen eventually but that has to be the very first time i have been called a liberal, no kidding.
Like i said in another reply, maybe it's a matter of perspective.
I have been in live sound since the early 70's and have been mixing and making speakers for concert sound much of that time. Maybe that is not the side of it you saw.
Welcome to the world of Independents! Glad to know you don't buy into conservative ideologies blindly like "deficits don't matter" or WMD. Probably the number one reason I think both parties are fullabulla.
nt
...that if nothing else, Sudz knows how to "push the button" for a lot of people around here.
Reminds me of an old saying: "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
;-)
I never heard that saying. Pretty accurate. Thanks.
... that way?
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
There are many, many artist and groups that have taken 'soul'/'r&b' in new and different directions..most notably the 'Neo-soul' movement of the late 90's and today, ie: Seal, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erika Badu, Jill Scott (my favorite, incredible talent), John Legend, just to name a few.-Of the artist I just listed, you will NOT find a single rap syllable on any of their albums-.
Problem with hip-hop and rap is that it dominates the airwaves thus sells the most commercial time on TV.
Patience will reveal deep rooted Soul/R&B music will survive long after hip hop perishes.
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Edits: 07/07/12 07/07/12
At least not to my ears. It's a bunch of ranting and crotch grabbing with percussion and bass tones in the tracks.
well you simply need to listen a little more....there is actually some good rap and hip hop out there.
Well, no shit, a revelation.
A lot of it is actually literate, musically accomplished, and politically relevant.
But I find that people have to be eased into the idea.
"Rap" music is not new, as Ray Charles once pointed out. 19th century folk traditions eventually gave rise to the "talking blues", as performed by early recording artists like Champion Jack Dupree and Willie Dixon.
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
I somewhat disagree. There are some decent hip-hop artists around. It is okay to not like a particular genre of music, but who are we to define what is or is not music ? In many cultures around the world, music can be simple percussive rhythms and chants.
sometimes (usually when I'm in my car) I like to crank the bass and grab my crotch!Today's hip-hop kinda reminds me of kids playing around with their parents music; something you know they -shouldn't be doing- but they do it anyway...
And every once in a while a tune'll catch my wave length long enough for me to enjoy...not often mind you, -but again, every once in a while.
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Edits: 07/07/12
From the beginning of 'American' Black music it has grown and changed rapidly.
I guess I would say it has (again) eluded most white people. (or non Black people)
It seems white people just try to grab it and think they have it 'figured out' then it changes in ways mystifying to non Blacks.
Funny how that happens..
PS I am so called white. Pink really... (Though it is odd how if I stay out in the Sun a lot, I can get darker skinned than many of my 'Black' friends.. LOL)
Edits: 07/06/12 07/06/12
:-)
.
hehe
Soul train went off the air and they went back to the green room to wait.
Almost all my records are black.
I look at music as music...... I don't care if they're white, black, purple, orange, or turquoise with pink polka dots................
I won't put up with turquoise-with-pink-polka-dots people moving into to my neighborhood! Imagine what that would do to property values.
Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. black music - music created by African-American musicians; early forms were songs that had a melodic line and a strong rhythmic beat with repeated choruses
African-American music
blues - a type of folksong that originated among Black Americans at the beginning of the 20th century; has a melancholy sound from repeated use of blue notes
soul - a secular form of gospel that was a major Black musical genre in the 1960s and 1970s; "soul was politically significant during the Civil Rights movement"
rap music, hip-hop, rap - genre of African-American music of the 1980s and 1990s in which rhyming lyrics are chanted to a musical accompaniment; several forms of rap have emerged
R and B, rhythm and blues - a combination of blues and jazz that was developed in the United States by Black musicians; an important precursor of rock 'n' roll
music genre, musical genre, musical style, genre - an expressive style of music
God help us if we start talking about "white music"..............
Good answer.I don't know why people are afraid to say things as they are.
enjoy,
mark
... I think I can see some black beans tumbling around with the corn and the other tasty bits, in an earth-colored stew.
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
And please hurry - I can't wait to hear your answer.
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
LMAO@genungo, you can't ask him a difficult question like that , you will overload that brain of his .......
The OJays, Spinners, Four tops, Barry White, Commodores, Otis Redding,Jackie Wilson, Chi-Lites, Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfield, Teddy Pendergrass, Just to name a few.
Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker,
Clifford Brown, Clark Terry, Joe Turner, Cleanhead Vinson, Wynton
Marsalis, et. al.?
All those are truly musicians.
In further news, Hell has completely frozen over.
I saw a pig fly by !
yourself back in the 70's and an ole' timer enters a crowded room (much like this one) shakes his fist and proclaims the current music of the day sucks and should sound more like it did back in the 1940's...I don't know about you, but I'd probably excuse myself from that room and smoke a fat joint ( Relax; we're talkin' the 70's :)
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Edits: 07/07/12 07/07/12
--------------------------
Do I have to spell it out?
C----H----E----E----S----E
A---N---D
O---N---I---O---N---S
Oh no.....
Jimi Hendrix , Buddy Guy,Vernon Reid, Lenny Kravitz. So Sudz, what color is the music they play ?
John Coltrane, All the rappers, all sorts of music..
Putting all black music into one tiny box is not too cool.
'nuf saidone of the two may be rich (finacially) beyond their wildest dreams...
but the other is rich (artiscally) beyond measure
craziest part: I actually like them both lol; each stimulates different branches of my musical nerve roots you might say (of course not ALL of Lil Wayne's stuff, but some of his jams are good car music on weekends)...
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Edits: 07/07/12 07/07/12
What's that saying about a thousand words?
If a white person enjoys or listens to this so-called "black music", do they lose some of their "whiteness" in the process?
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
.
.
don't miss it at all...
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Or so you say.
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
/
All of the musical styles you mention might simply be called "American" ones, because so many different races and/or musical traditions have been consulted in their formations. Try again?
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
Edits: 07/06/12
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