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I have been reading many forums both on this site as well as on other sites. I can understand that the sound of a transducer ( a turntable changes mechanical to electrical energy) could be affected by these devices. I guess I can understand how vibrations might affect a cd laser reading a cd ( though this is a stretch for me). But I have seen references to using devices under amps and preamps, and I don't understand why coupling or damping devices should affect the "sound" those devices make. Many have posted of the positive and negative affects that these devices can have on components. Any idea why they should affect things like amps or preamps, especially solid state components ? Thanks Norm
Follow Ups:
I have tried a wide variety and almost all improve the sound but not always in the same way. I recently took some over to a listening session with a couple of other audiophiles; one of whom denounced the whole idea as black magic. HOWEVER, after putting some under a CD player he said after 30 seconds:WOW , that is much better. Since they are quite different in material and construction I doubt if there is one single explanation of how they work but work they do. My system was sounding off the other night and I couldn't think why until I realized I hadn't replaced the MIGs when I moved a component to another shelf. Try some yourself and see if you don't hear the difference.
try it. for instance check your equipment cabinets by tapping it. if it isn't really dead sounding, put some heavy weights on it. I'll bet some of the high end 'shimmer' will go away. That was microphonics.
or try either cones(coupling devices) or soft decoupling feet under your gear. I'll bet the sound will be different. now the question is what is better but if it changes(and it will) it's obviously affecting sonics.
Air born and mechanical micro vibrations seem to have the least affect on solid state amps and pre amps. It's when you have two vibrations at a sympathetic frequency that the problem becomes an issue, often referred to as coupled harmonics.
A mechanic's stethoscope can be a handy and inexpensive way to hear differences in footers.
An amp enclosure on rubber feet resonating to its own transformer(s), will sound different (through a stethoscope) to say, brass cones.
Amps and other components with isolated/suspended circuit boards can be checked if the probe can touch the board, or other innards.
Have fun
Wow, that's a great idea and cheap too, never would have thought of it. Hopefully I'll have one in hand, or is it ear?, ere tomorrow's out...
Thanks!
Rick
I have had mixed experiences with different materials. Harder materials emphasized sharper transients,firmer bass,upper frequencies while softer materials emphasized midrange,more rounded transients,relatively diffuse bass,reduced dynamics. In spite of trying a wide variety of devices with different materials and technologies I could never find the "perfect" device. There was no major differences between different technologies(springs,magnetic,ball in cup,etc). There was always a tradeoff somewhere. I eventially settled on relatively inexpensive wood footers which had a full midrange without major changes to dynamics,bass,transients. The sonic effects of all these devices were subtle. Your mileage will definitely vary as each situation is quite different(room,rack,equipment,speaker placement).
It's a myth! But isn't that what audio is all about nowadays?
Middleground has ALL the answers!
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Do you make stretching things until they have no relation to the original an avocation?
I could ask you to provide a proper explanation for the "every tiny vibration of an electronic device causes audible effects", but I am certain you will not take up the challenge, probably citing a "you either believe or you can't hear properly" type comment.
Only place I read that is in your reply to me. It's not even a suggestion in the OP.
Why take it to that extreme and expect me to provide you with an explanation?
Now, THAT'S a stretch!
But, if YOU think you're having such a problem, maybe the product at the link may help.
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
I am not sure that its benefits are limited to vibrations, however. It seems to have some electro-magnetic impacts also.
FIM's expensive Ultra Discs use a thinned version of AVM. Also 3D Reference speakers use AVM.
Skirting issues appears to be what you do best.
I never expected much from you and, at least, can say that I am not disappointed.
Ditto, though I will give you credit for being consistent.
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
"Any idea why they should affect things like amps or preamps, especially solid state components ?"
Sure, the parts can be sensitive to vibration. There are several mechanisms that account for the behavior.
Semiconductor chips are sensitive to flexure so if anything twists or bends the PCB they are attached to some of that motion will couple to the chip and usually show up as an offset term in the output. In other words it will be AM at the signal frequency but with a strange timing and have oddball distortion components. The same mechanism in the portion of a gate that determines the threshold will modulate the slicing point causing IFM (incidental frequency modulation) which is better known in these parts as jitter.
The sensitivity of a device to flexure depends upon the die layout, the package and the orientation on the PCB. I had an instance once where the problem was gravity. The product would respond to what angle it was held at, unfortunately it wasn't a builder's level... Turned out to be case flexure coupled to the PCB through the mounts which twisted the board changing the DC offset and producing a change in the indication. Moved the IC a little and flipped it 90 degrees and all was well.
Tubes are of course a lot worse in general and suffer from the grids and stuff rattling around imside and the pins wiggling in the socket. Loctals were better for the latter and frame-grids much better for the former.
Passives aren't innocent either, chip resistors are sensitive to bending, capacitors to triboelectric effects and capacitive variations from motion and flexure and crystals can just really be a problem. HC-18 styles have the crystal suspended by two leads internally which and will flop back and forth under Vib causing sidebands which get really bad at it's mechanical resonance.
And THEN there can be problems with stuff changing their relative locations. For instance if you have two film capacitors mounted vertically beside each other, they will flop a little with Vib changing their relative spacing and the capacitance between them.
Enough. I guess the bottom is almost anything is a little microphonic. On the bright side I've not had much problem that I'm aware of with home audio, but then again I haven't investigated it nearly as much as many other folks on this site have. My experience is from decades of work on stuff in iffier environments like missiles, airplanes and logging trucks. However the principles are all the same, it's just a matter of levels.
If you want to investigate it further you will need to invest in some special tooling and the thing to start with is a wooden pencil. But don't sharpen it. The approach is forced excitation: You poke it with your stick and see what happens. I know, it doesn't sound like "rocket science", but in this case it truly is! Tap around on things with the volume up and see what you hear. The idea is to find the areas of susceptibility and try and improve them, use the wooden end of your shock stimuluator to generate HF impulses, the eraser end for LF ones. If you spring for a second NASA approved shock stimulator you can sharpen the wooden end and take notes. Don't cheap out and try to use one for both, the pointed graphite will crumble onto your board causing a new layer of problems!
What to do next depends on what you find. Obviously for shock sensitive components you need to replace them with one's that are less so or try to isolate them.
Hmmm, I just realized that I'm going far far beyond what you asked. Sorry, got on a roll. Suffice to say there are approaches to make things better. But there is no way to make things perfect...
Regards, Rick
Certainly, some tube are highly microphonic, but I have heard substantial benefits on solid state electronics also.
Thank you. That is actually the kind of knowledge I was looking for. Norm
You're welcome.
If you decide to delve into the issue further and get stuck I'd be happy to try and help or at the least offer solace! In electronics, as in most fields, there is a point where the activities of it's practicioners appear more sorcery than science to the casual observer and it can save a lot of time to be able to tap into the knowledge of those who already know which bones to shake.
There's a lot of collective knowledge here and of course hobbyists (and even many manufacturers who are frequently hobbyists gone to the dark side) love to share their experiences...
Rick
Also and wire with a current induces a magnetic field around it. In short any motion in any circuit with current flowing is harmed by any vibration. I have been shocked at what significant impact vibrations have. I have also been shocked at how little impact typical soft and hard cones, balls, etc. have once you've heard what a well designed device has.
I should also note that the best circuits should probably be in a straight line so that the current flow can not affect any adjacent wire. It would be hell to house a straight line preamp, but I once heard one simply mounted on a 1 by 6 board. It had no shielding, of course, but it was so clean and effortless.
Hmmm? Any idea of the relative scale of any of these stray currents?
The human ear is a sensitive mechanism, but it does have limits that are quite a bit lower than what audiophiles want to believe.
Years ago Sony had carefully designed components to greatly reduced internal vibrations. I remember them showing me what happened with the output of an amplifier shown on an oscilloscope. It was quite evident when one tapped on it. I don't recall what the magnitude of the variations were, however.
I do know, however, what using the StillPoints Ultra SSs or Ultra Fives did to the sound of components.
Plenty of posts over on the tweaks area of various items modifying the sound.
I can say i have heard slight changes in sound from changing how stuff sits in my racks.
Certainly vibrations can affect electronics. Whether vibrations affect transistors directly ??(IMO yes, but no proof) but i would think caps could be affected.(because they rely on spacing of parts within to accomplish their function, and are large and loose enough to be affected by vibrations)
The claims of all sorts of little changes creating big results from various folks (and they are not selling anything!) seems to point to that footer stuff can and does affect the sound.
Even stopping amplifier fins from 'ringing' helps..
I personally have the majority of my equipment on butyl rubber chemical bottle stoppers. Size ten. Work great on my glass shelves.
I also own and have used tiptoes, teak blocks. concrete bricks, Ceramic pucks.
Clarity has a White Paper discussing vibration / microphonic caps and how they addressed the issue. I'll see if I can find it and link back:
To the list of Elizabeth's devices, add Hockey Pucks. Cheap, hard / dense.
As for HOW vibration could effect a SS device in which all the components are of a unit, is beyond me.
Too much is never enough
"Many have posted of the positive and negative affects that these devices can have on components."
Did it ever motivate you to try them yourself?
"Any idea why they should affect things like amps or preamps, especially solid state components ?"
I'm trying to understand why do you care.
let me act as surrogate for the o.p.:
question one: he wants to know without (having) to try. get it (yet)? and maybe enough positives will result in trying the devices (get it . . yet?)
question two: why not ask that question of any of the other posters' questions - question why they care about their questions.
H.F.N.
Asking for rationalizations? or reasons others use them?
The comments could just degenerate into arguments of wishful thinking vs rationalists fast.
i go with many claim they work, and my own experience says they certainly do not harm, and seem to help.
I would never spend a lot of money on fancy ones. My $1.25 bottle stoppers (I must own well over fifty by now) work for me..
Original tip toes $7.50 each. Teak blocks from cut up cheeseboards from Goodwill, $1 each (pretty rare now, only old 1970's ones were real teak)
Round patio bricks $1 on sale.. I tried corks, but they did not impress...
Edits: 07/04/12
I gave away a bag of them some time ago.
No way are aluminum machined discs gonna be $0.50
Maybe you got some on a closeout?
I am not looking for rationalization, actually I trying to understand why and how these things might work so I can make a better choice in trying something in the future. If I try something and it changes the sound, it doesn't mean all things will change the sound, I am not trying to start flame wars. People experience what they experience. I am just trying to figure out more of this audio hobby. Unlike some posters, at least you have some suggestions. Norm
Whenever any sort of 'alternative' ... feet, cables anything not mainstream some are gonna gripe about it. It is just part of the process here.
I've found "harder" materials - brass, other metals, wood, maybe ceramics? (haven't tried any) work towards more satisfying results than "soft" materials such as Sorbothane or various rubber. Then again Herbie's Audio Lab has some materials that are on the soft side that work quite well.
I liked vibrapods a lot until I moved to something harder...
It REALLY depends on your application/goals, as implementation works at "tuning" your system, which is a very personal thing! Ya gotta play with it...
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Edits: 07/04/12 07/04/12
I'll second looking into Herbie's. In general his stuff is not too expensive and works really well. I cut up Black Holes for tuning materials.
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