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Not sure which forum is appropriate so it goes here. Feel free to redirect.I have a friend who has a problem with mid bass in his system, and I was hoping the collective knowledge here may help us solve this problem.
System:
Speakers: Coincident Pure Reference Extremes
Amps: Atmasphere MA1 (forget which Mk.) Silver Anniversary
Pre: Aesthetix Calypso, Signature upgrades
Phono: Aesthetix Rhea, Signature upgrades
CD: Sony 5400
Table: AVID Acutus, SME V arm, Linn Akiva
Cables: Coincident (pre to amp), Kimber, various otherRoom Size: 13Wx27Lx8H (Speakers are on the short wall. There is a large entry way on the south wall that opens into a dining room – this is next to the left speaker. - I tried to insert a drawing here but couldn't figure out how to do that - feel free to ask questions about the room shape and I'll try to clarify).
Room modes: 43Hz, 21Hz, 70Hz
Together, he and I have tried numerous solutions: added bass traps in all four corners of the room as well as other sound absorption solutions – the room is pretty well damped. And we’ve gone back and forth with additions and subtractions of room sound treatments.
We also recently added a subwoofer. While this improved the low bass response (and we played with freq cutoffs), it did little to add to the mid bass. And we both feel that a sub should not be necessary IN THEORY for this system and this room size. But hey, we’re open to trying anything.
We’ve also done every tube roll we could with the amps, the pre, and the phono stage. We did not skimp on tubes – most current tubes are NOS and very low noise. But we’ve also tried current production tubes. There are myriad numbers of tubes in these components. While all the tube rolls had effects, nothing has come even close to giving us more body and midbass oomph in the system. We’ve also done the cable swap thing.
The problem is there’s still no body to the music whatsoever. The top end is pretty much spot on with excellent air and detail. But when it comes to heft and weight the system is just not there. The speakers have over 300 hours on them I believe - perhaps more.
We have listened to a number of other pres and amps in the system – most recently a Cary Superamp and an Almarro 318 integrated. We’ve also tried an Audible Illusions pre and an Anthem pre. Still no real difference in midbass heft. Prior to all this, my friend had Coincident Total Eclipse speakers – these had the same issue with a lack of midbass in this same system. We had found that a Atmasphere MP3 pre with the Total Ecilpses gave us more bass and mids but the highs were severely compromised.
I may be missing some more important details and hopefully my friend will see this and also chime in with some detail.
It has become quite a frustrating experience for both of us. I'd say we've been tweaking around on this system for at least a year and if you include the Total Eclipses then it's more like three years (We're stubborn idiots I know!).
What are we missing here? It seems like the system can do much more than it is. Any help would be much appreciated.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
Edits: 04/18/12Follow Ups:
Well, we ended up getting an OmniMic (thanks to a kind soul on Audiokarma) and using REW to check out the room. It measured pretty good but clearly had a room mode at about 45Hz and a null at about 110Hz. See first pic.
One of our crew suggested changing the phase on the upper mid/tweeter unit. I still don't know how he came up with this idea - although he said that since the bass units were quite a distance from the mid/tweeter units it suggested a problem. We reversed the speaker connections on the mid/tweeter units and remeasured. See second pic.
Improvement on the graph. And the sound was vastly improved. So for now the problem is fixed. My friend will add some additional acoustic panels at first reflection points to try to control that 5Khz rolloff.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
the two openings into the room, the stairwell and open dinning area, only serve to make matters worse in the midbass range where many residential rooms already have problems in the 80hz to160hz range.
To explain; the Coincident Pure Reference Extreme speaker system uses a 6db 1st order crossover which necessitates a single very large value inductor for the low pass to the Peerless woofers. This presents an inductive load which typically is balanced somewhat with the capacitive load of the high pass filter to the midrange driver but the Coincident system does not use an electrical filter for the high pass to the Accuton ceramic mid driver; instead by using the natural low frequency rolloff of the driver along with cabinet tuning they achieve acoustically the equivalent of a 1st order filter for the high pass to the midrange driver. The drawback, there's no capacitive vector to balance the inductive vector from the low pass filter. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the 100hz to130hz range that speaker system had a positive phase angle of 30 degrees or more.
Now, remember current will lead voltage in an inductive load. An OTL amp, in fact any OTL amp is not an ideal choice for this as they, OTL amps, are much better suited for capacitive loads such as ESL speakers present. Which is why one finds so many SoundLab speaker owners using Atma-Sphere OTL amps in their systems as they are a synergistic match.
I'm not criticizing the Coincident speaker it's probably an excellent sounding system; I’m just saying that it is not the best match for an OTL amp, and personally I would not put a S.E.T., amp on it either.
However, with all that said; you are stuck with the gear you have and wish to make the most of it. First off some experimentation is called for. Just to see if the midbass improves any by placement change try rotating the speakers so that the Peerless woofers are facing the listening seat and listen in the near-field, since the midrange module is 90 degrees to the woofer have the mids firing at each other to the middle of the room. This will not give the best midrange but will allow you to focus on the quality of the midbass and see if any improvement is possible in that room. Another odd setup to try is to position the speakers along the long wall but not conventionally. Place the cabinets very close to each other with the woofers facing the listening seat and the mid cabs the reverse of the above firing away from each other at the side walls. Now, you will be considerably off axis to the midrange 90 degrees then try slight amounts of toe-in and see if a better balance is possible.
"Just to see if the midbass improves any by placement change try rotating the speakers so that the Peerless woofers are facing the listening seat and listen in the near-field, since the midrange module is 90 degrees to the woofer have the mids firing at each other to the middle of the room. This will not give the best midrange but will allow you to focus on the quality of the midbass and see if any improvement is possible in that room. Another odd setup to try is to position the speakers along the long wall but not conventionally. Place the cabinets very close to each other with the woofers facing the listening seat and the mid cabs the reverse of the above firing away from each other at the side walls. Now, you will be considerably off axis to the midrange 90 degrees then try slight amounts of toe-in and see if a better balance is possible."
Actually, the midwoofer/tweeter units are in separate cabinets that sit atop the bass units. So we could fire the woofers at the listening position and rotate the upper cabs to fire the same way. Same on the long wall.
Thanks for the explanation of the crossover and OTLs. Interesting stuff. It may explain why when switching to another set of amps or amp the mid bass saw some improvement. It suggests to me that the issue is a combination of amplifier and room.
Cheers
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
driving the Peerless woofers with a different amplifier to see if that mitigates the midbass deficiency. Of course that will then pose the difficulty of bi-amplification, trying to match the sonic signatures of disparate amps. However, that would at least show if quality midbass is obtainable in that room.
Additionally, you don't need to hunt up a Stereophile test CD, although they are useful to have, there are free test tone generators on the web; many in fact, here's a link to one below, or you could just buy a signal generator. There is a low cost BK Precision 3001 Sine/Square wave generator on Amazon for $85, but you would need some Radio Shack banana plug to RCA adapters to go from the handheld BK to the line level input on the preamp. If you go that route be careful setting levels as a square wave signal or a constant high level sine wave can and will fry a tweeter.
Thank you cfb, for the kind and illuminating responses!
"While all the tube rolls had effects, nothing has come even close to giving us more body and midbass oomph in the system."
What are you guys using for a reference? I can't tell, without actually hearing it, if you are trying to obtain a coloration.
Actually, I'm just explaining what we have tried by way of a solution to the mid bass problem. It's been my experience, wrong or right, that different tubes have sometimes profound effects on the "sound" of a particular component.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
"Actually, I'm just explaining what we have tried by way of a solution to the mid bass problem."
Something may be missing in the translation. Would it be correct to say, the room has a persistent mid bass (50-80Hz?) suckout? If so, with all due respect, how would you know?
Well, exactly. How do I know if the room has that suck out? Part of the reason behind my post in the first place was for some advice on how to find that out, even though I may not have specifically said so. Do you have an advice on how to find that out?
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
"Part of the reason behind my post in the first place was for some advice on how to find that out, even though I may not have specifically said so."
Yes, I'd like to know what initiated your post. Others can't tell you that. For all I know you might be chasing down one passage of music. Can you at least now say the problem has been narrowed down to the room? It's very difficult to assist when everything is a possibility.
I can't say whether the problem is the room or the amps or the speakers. If you look at my initial post it describes the problem and some solutions we have tried.
I have no idea what you mean by "reference." We have listened to a great deal of systems in the last 30 years, enough to know that this one is not performing in the right sort of way. Is that what you meant?
The point of my post was to seek answers as to why.
If you could suggest a way of finding room nulls that would be extremely helpful. If I could find the null(s) I could perhaps say that the room is the problem. Until then though I have only the opinions here to go on.
Perhaps you are suggesting that because we have no mid bass then it is most definitely the room. I'm not so sure as that.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
"We have listened to a great deal of systems in the last 30 years, enough to know that this one is not performing in the right sort of way."
OK, but you also initially said, "It has become quite a frustrating experience for both of us. I'd say we've been tweaking around on this system for at least a year and if you include the Total Eclipses then it's more like three years (We're stubborn idiots I know!)."
It becomes more complex being unable exclude yourselves from the possibilities. Best of luck.
...why are the speakers placed where they are in relation to the front and side walls, i.e. what process was used to position them?Same question for the listening position relative to the speakers?
I used to use a 17' X 27' room and started with the "rule of thirds".
The problem you'll have in the narrower room, is getting the speakers away from the side wall and then ideally having the listening spot a farther back than the distance between the speakers - with only 13' of width to work with, thirds might be difficult.
Most likely, I'd guess the listening position is in a null spot for the midbass frequencies where they cancel out.
I would suggest a CD with test tones, like Sterophiile Test CD 2 - first sit in the listening spot while listen down the frequencies from about 200HZ, then walk around the room doing the same.
That way, you'll here and locate where the nulls and standing waves are to optimize the seating once the speakers are in the best location.
Edits: 04/18/12
I believe that my friend started with the Cardas recommendations for speaker placement as seen here:
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring
There has been some minor movement since that time. Again, the drawing is not to scale so it may seem inconsistent with a Golden Ratio formula.
I've been meaning to get a couple of the Stereophile Test CDs - now is probably a good time to do so. Thanks for the tips.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
a) Did this system sound 'correct' in a different location? ie, did you just move to this house, or move it to this room? If so, the problem is likely the room. If not, did you checking speaker wiring for correct phase?
Get dollies with castors to help you move the speakers around easily, and use long cheap flexible speaker wire, so you can leave the system powered and playing as you move the speakers.
b) Try moving the speakers by 45 degrees, just to try it out. ie 1 speaker on short wall, one on long wall, firing along a sort of diagonal.
c) Try moving the speakers into 2 corners.
d) Try using just 1 speaker, and move it around. Bass from one might be cancelling out the other.
The goal is to see if you can get the speakers to sound normal in *some* location. If so, location tuning might. Otherwise, you will likely have to resort to bass trapping to prevent bass cancellation.
a) Did this system sound 'correct' in a different location? ie, did you just move to this house, or move it to this room?
No, it's always been in this room.
b) Try moving the speakers by 45 degrees, just to try it out. ie 1 speaker on short wall, one on long wall, firing along a sort of diagonal.
I'm not sure what this will reveal. What am I listening for when this is accomplished? Are you saying that one of the speakers will start sounding right? If so, what then?
c) Try moving the speakers into 2 corners.
Yes, we have done this. Not much difference in mid bass reproduction.
d) Try using just 1 speaker, and move it around. Bass from one might be cancelling out the other.
We'll try this out.
Thanks for the tips!
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
An angled setup can often offset bass cancellation. For example, at last years Axpona NY, Jeff Joseph did just that.
What you're trying to figure out is if this is a problem with the room, or the speakers. Once you've identified the problem, then you can treat appropriately.
Another thing to try: move 1 or both speakers and amps outdoors, without any walls, on a deck say, and see if the sound is OK. If its still thin and lacking bass, you may have other issues. If its OK, then the problem is the room. You then need to get a bunch more bass traps, and try on floor and ceiling joints, not just in the corners. Realtraps have worked very well for me.
Ok gotcha. That makes sense.
May be worth trying the outdoors idea too.
Thanks.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
I had the same problem, till I treated the ceiling with Realtraps. I have a peaked roof. No bass, and thin midrange till then, resulting in a lot of speaker changes, till I discovered Realtraps.
Uploading a pic to show the Realtrap locations. The ceiling/wall junction at the rear is treated the same as the front: 3 minitraps. I also have a bunch on the back wall, but this is mostly for reflection treatment, not for bass, which got fixed by the 8 on the ceiling.
Good luck.
No peaked roof. Just a flat surface.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
I don't think it is the equipment; from your long term efforts it seems the deficiency you experience is more likely the result of speaker and listening position. Somethings I've learned about speaker & listening position in setting up five home listening rooms include:
1. Moving speakers incrementally closer together can warm up (add mid-LF) the sound;
2. Male voice frequencies and below sometimes require positioning augmentation that includes corners formed by solid walls behind and immediately to the sides of speakers;
3. Speakers should not be placed equal distant from walls to the side and behind;
4. Speakers should not be placed in null mode room positions;
5 The listening position should either be placed (i) within a range of 12 to ~30 inches from the wall behind OR (ii) at least not in a null mode room position; and
6. Placing speakers along the long wall may be a way to get the best compromise in LF reproduction and other reproduction aspects you and your friend value.
If you haven't done so, a read through of Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" is worthwhile.
Cheers,
Ian
I am interested in figuring out exactly where the null mode room positions are. I guess using a test CD would help us out - that and wandering around the room while that was playing....I'm not completely sure how to go about this so any other advice would be appreciated.
Some excellent points that bear further exploration. Thank you.
BTW: my buddy has read Jim Smith's book. I'll have to borrow it asnd take a look as well.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
With a test cd that has a range of frequencies from say 30hz to 20,000hz using an inexpensive Radioshack sound meter measure the frequencie lveles at the listeners position. This will help you identify suckouts and nodes. You can then proceed from there to try the various suggestions you are gettig
Alan
The preferred Radio Shack sound pressure meter is with one with the analog (rather than the digital readout) meter set on: "C" weighted, "average." Keep the meter as far from your body as possible and yet still be able to read out the meter Establishing your general volume at anywhere from 70 dB to 85 dB depending upon the room and your general listening preferences. If settling on a listening position, you can mount the meter on a tripod set up for the height at which listening will occur. If using a test CD, choose one with a corrected Low Frequency range to compensate for the anomolies known to exist with the Radio Shack's reading errors (IIRC, you can order one from Rives). Otherwise, corrected readings for the RS meter can be found on the web.
Have fun.
Ian
I know the Rat Shack one has been a staple, I think the Studio 6 Digital one that is on my iPhone is good as well, maybe better. Thanks for the operating advise.
Edits: 04/20/12
Checking the comment section at the app store for that product reveals several complaints that it is not accurate at lower frequencies (relative to, say, 250 hz through 4k Hz). I have no personal experience with it, so YMMV.
Cheers,
Ian
This problem is characteristic of listening position being TOO FAR from the speakers, and too close to the wall behind it.
Ideally, you would need to upload the drawing (last textbox below).
As a side note, and I don't think it has anything to do with the midbass problem - strictly in my opinion, Sony 5400 doesn't belong in this fine system.
The 5400 is not causing his problem. I have heard many $5,000 plus cd players and none are as good as the 5400 in my opinion
Alan
.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
I have heard in the last 2 years the following
1) Ayre ( not sure of model)
2) Linn CD12
3) Marantz SA8003
4) Oppo 95
5) A recent Wadia ( not sure of model)
6) EMM labs CDSA
I liked the Ayre and EMM labs a lot but felt that the Sony was right there with them
Alan
I agree and we don't know if that XA5400ES is one that's been upgraded with the VSE or Modwright upgrades, in which case it would humble many pricer one-box CD/SACD players. I know. Been there, done that.
We don't know what you've done, what you've heard, where you've been...
Because you're hiding. What Modwright player have you owned? What Modwright player have you heard? What does VSE stand for? Have you heard one of their mods? What is the make-up of your system? Have you heard either source in your system? What other CD players have you owned or heard? What is the make up of your listening room? What kind of music do you like? How do we know who you are? You don't have a history here. Or, are you hiding behind a new moniker after you've been previously registered? How do you know who Romy the Cat is? Are you DonT or DonTill?
How do you know what the 5400 sounds like?
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Peace brother.
I prefer anonymity but understand that it may upset some.
By VSE I was referring to the Vacuum State (Terra Firma Lite and Uber) upgrades.
I'm very familiar with the Modwrighted XA5400ES.
Pre-Goggle Mountain View, CA native.
OK. Here's the room layout. The listening position is roughly 70 some inches from the back wall. I forget how far the speakers are from the front wall but estimate 4 feet or so.I can't remember the last time my friend played a CD - he's pretty much strictly a vinyl listener.
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
Edits: 04/18/12
I would put the speakers in the other end of the room and the listening position closer to the speakers. That doorway is problematic with that setup. The listening position should be as far from the speakers as the speakers are from each other for a starting position.
(Worshiping at the Universal Music Altar)
z
I really agree with knobspinner. That opening next to the speaker is acting as a bass trap. Reversing the setup should really help. Also be careful of overtrapping a room. You actually might want more dispersion and less trapping. I have never used bass traps in any room I have had. Instead I will move the speakers around until I get them to sound the way I want. I prefer a more lively room as opposed to a dead room
Alan
Well, there's a lot of stuff in his room and changing the orientation is not going to be a simple or easy task. As a way to test I was trying to think about how to temporarily close off the dining space opening. I suppose one could use sheets of plywood, or drywall may be cheaper and easier to handle. Is there something else that would have a similar effect to close the opening up for a test listen before we move equipment? Would some materials be better than others?
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
The drawing is not to scale - sorry about that. The listening position is approximately in an equilateral triangle with the speakers - I forget the measurements but we recently dialed them in so that as you note the listening position is as far from the speakers as the speakers are from one another.
The speakers aren't at the other end since in the lower right corner is the front door....but now that I think about it it may be possible to shift things around. Hmmmmm. Thanks for the suggestion.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
You may get better mid bass reinforcement if the speakers are at the other end of the room. Being near the front door could be somewhat awkward though. Its worth a shot.
Jack
as if you are trying to load the room with the sound before it even gets to you. I find it far better to aim for near-field listening conditions as much as possible in order to get the room out of the way. I would put the loudspeakers together with the listening position somewhere in the lower half of the room. IMO only in my limited experience.
Well, it's a fairly typical living room/dining area - in the midwest anyway. The problem could indeed be the dining room opening though which as you suggest may be unloading some of the bass.
There's no room to move stuff further back from the far wall since behind the listening position is a 30-inch or so gap and then an open staircase leading to the second floor.
If we moved the speakers further forward to miss the dining room opening we'd be listening about 24-36 inches from the speaker cones. That's nearfield indeed.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
"Compared to genuinely full-range speaker systems, the Coincident PRE lacks the ability to deliver the sort of bass weight that physically assaults the listener -- and that some high-end customers find so impressive. More important, it also lacks the really deep bass output that is necessary to generate the sort of convincingly defined acoustic space, dimensionality and boundaries that you get from speakers like the Grande and the Isis, as well as the massive four-box tower systems represented by the likes of the big Infinity, Genesis or Scaena setups. "This has "warning" written all over it to those for whom "bass weight" is important. But I also think an OTL is not the right amp for you. Get a beefy PP amp with 4 power pentodes per channel. Avoid EL-34s's. KT88/6550 and up the KT line.
Observe, don't think
Edits: 04/18/12
Interesting quote from Roy. But I think Roy is talking about something entirely different - a massive sense of scale. I think I'd be happy to just hear a convincing drum set sound from my friend's system. It doesn't have to physically assault me just sound like it is a real drum set.
We have not tried any amp with 4 power pentodes per channel. We have though tried many DIY amps with KT88 tubes and the Cary amp had two KT88s per channel. I'm surprised that you think 4 pentodes per channel would be necessary - the PREs are very easy to drive speakers - 94db and 8ohms (never dropping below 6ohms). Coincident even suggests 3 watts is enough.
Thanks for the info - it does help to get other opinions.
Jeff
Music Reviews: http://solidgrooves.wordpress.com/
SMAC website: http://sites.google.com/site/michiganaudioclub/
"Warnings" are always generally in reviews. To me, it sounded like a warning.
In fact, i think the problem lies in the speakers less than in the amps, but a good test would be to use a higher powered PP amp and if that didn't get the bass out of these speakers, then my conclusion would be that these are bass-shy speakers.
Of course another way to go would be SET, presumably a parallel tubed 2A3 which would get you about 6-7W/channel, almost as much as a single 300B. I prefer the bass and tone of the 2A3 to the 300B.
Observe, don't think
Hello all, I'm the mid-bass shy friend, or at least that is my system anyway. First off, thank you all for trying to be of some help in this situation, I really do appreciate your thoughts.As my friend Jeff has depicted the room layout it would be impossible to put a speaker at the front door/landing of the second floor stair case. I have thought about a long wall set-up but feel having a listening couch against one wall would be a greater handicap sonically than the set-up I have today.
As far as power amps go the Atma's are 140w each at 8Ω with 14 twin triodes a side. I am in no need of huge solid state slam because it isn't realistic to live music (my reference) and timbre, tonality, and texture are, and the OTL's have that in spades. We have tried many other amps, admittedly with my Aesthetix Calypso Signature pre-amp usually in the mix and the 18w Almarro and Cary super amp had more (bottom end) bass but, little mid-bass. Granted, neither held a candle to the Atma's for detail, clarity, speed, dynamics, etc and the bass was a little wooly. I have heard the Atma's on Classic Audio Reproduction CAR T-3's and they where simply amazing, with no lack of anything! And no lack of bass punch (not SS bass) but realistic musical tube bass. And about the Roy Gregory quote, I interpreted his bass comment about folks like MF with huge speakers and SS amps who need bass slam to shock and awe visitors, as an audio stunt, not the kind of bass in real acoustic music or sought after by realistic music lovers. I think if you reread it in context it will agree with my interpretation.
My concern is that when we tried the MP3 Atma-Sphere with their MA1's the bass was huge and had slam, the mid was nice but the upper end was lacking. Two things that could have had something to do with its short comings, it had very few break-in hours on it, I have no idea of the tube compliment, it was employed with the old Coincident TE's, and it was quit some time ago so my memory may be a bit faulty on exact impressions. When my friend Jeff referred me back to the MF review from 2005 of the Aesthetix pre-amp the test results may lead me to believe that there may be an issue of synergy with the pre-amp and the power amps due to impedance compatibility. The Atma's input is 200kΩ balanced and the Calypso with balanced output of 600Ω sounds like it fits well within the minimum 10x rule but, I am far from a complete understanding of what really works in this relationship.
Well, that is a few more tidbits of what I know, what I think I know, and what might be relevant to the issue at hand. Thanks again all.
Oh, and just to clear up a point about the CD player, I like it, it is adequate, but I have little serious interest in digital sound.
Happy Listening!
Edits: 04/18/12
Well, just an update to my dilemma, it is no more. With over a hundred more hours of burn in on the CPRE-t's and without changing any of the original kit, not a wire, not a tube, the sound has transformed into a very lovely and balance music that is not shy in the lower mid nor shy in bass at all. The thing that completely removed the somewhat edgy and over bearing upper frequencies,filled in the lower mid suck-out, and created a real balanced portrayal, was taking the advice of one of our friends, Dennis, who was performing the room frequency analysis. He recommended reversing the polarity (+/-) from the mono blocks to both of the monitors (tweeter/midrange driver boxes). The minute I flipped the amps off standby we all exclaimed almost in unison, "what the hell, your kidding that's it!!!" The results we heard, and then was backed up by another frequency analysis of the room, the suck-out virtually disappeared and left no other deleterious artifacts what so ever, in the overall presentation of the music. I would have never considered trying this move, nor would I have anticipated its outcome. As it turns out, I am one very happy camper... Happy Listening all!
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