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I am in the process of designing a "listening room" for the new house we are planning.
The room will have to be quite a lot smaller than my current 27' x 17' listening room (it needs to be 19' long) and someone has suggested I use a "BAW" seating position.
What do you think of this concept? I always thought sitting against the wall:
a) gave minimum bass, and
b) resulted in undesirable (rear) wall reflections
- so is a baaad idea? Am I mistaken?
Thanks,
Andy
Follow Ups:
FWIW, I've tried my listening seat in all different positions from all the way up between the speakers, to all the way to the back wall.
Clearly, my favorite position for listening is 1' from the wall behind me. And that is without any treatment on that rear wall.
Speakers are Quad Electrostats.
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Andy, some of that may come from a lack of definition of what "back against the wall" actually means. Initially I was thinking your head (ears) might be 10-15" from the back wall. That would be bad in my opinion. Just walk around your current room if your system is set up and notice the bloated bass when your head is that close to any wall.So I was surprised to read some of the replies here, especially Jim Smith's. But then I noted he is talking about 36" out which could be significantly better.
BTW, for your and Jim's information, John Dunlavy was an American (born in Texas I believe). He moved from Texas to Oz when he expanded his Duntech product line. Later, he returned to the US, eventually producing DAL speakers in Colorado. And yes, he did recommend "near wall" seating. I suspect that was for two reasons. First his speakers, both Duntechs and DALs sounded best when placed well away from side walls, thus he suggested long wall placement in most rooms. Unless the room was fairly wide, that necessitated the listener would be near the back wall. Second, John loved the bass range (another understanding on my part, he played the stand-up bass), just look at the bass drivers in most of his designs. Thus a little "extra" warmth from near wall seating possibly pleased him.
This won't be the same as actual experience in your new room but can you run an experiment in your current room? Place your seat against a wall with the speakers the approximate distance away they would be in your new room, then judge how it sounds. Further experiment by moving your seat out in 2" increments until you are at least 36" away from the wall and see how that sounds to you. Hopefully from that you can then direct your architect.
Good luck.
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
Edits: 03/12/12
enough support to believe that a long-wall speaker position will work ... although my ears may have to be a couple of feet out from the wall, and some absorbtive treatment may be necessary, behind me.
Regards,
Andy
Actually, I was referring to a short wall set-up with the maggies into the room 6-7 feet, depending on how far you are away from the rear wall.
As you say, no consensus, except I've probably successfully voiced more maggie installations than anyone else, by a long shot. :)
Best regards,
Jim Smith
So are you saying (even though your ears are a couple of ft away from the wall), that a long-wall speaker position is no good?
Regards,
Andy
No, I'm not saying that a long wall set-up is no good.
I am saying that with maggies, I have found the set-up that sounds the most musically involving and portrays the sound most correctly - IMO - is with the maggies well into the room (much easier on the short wall). Not only is there more depth, the speakers disappear better - again, IMO - and the bass is usually MUCH better.
Of course, this set-up will call for first reflection treatment on the side walls and behind the listener. And - IMO - some treatment (not the entire wall) on the front walls as well.
This technique also helps to dramatically reduce any rear wave reflections. The rear reflections are an absolute no-no with any planar speaker. They cause all sorts of comb-filtering response irregularities. Sadly, it's not just audible as a loss of info, it's actually measurable. And of course, we know that a certain manufacturer doesn't particularly want reviews with measurements. Not because the speaker is somehow defective, it's quite excellent. But the reflections can affect the measurements in a room, and it will be unpredictable based on the room geometry and how far they are away from the wall.
Anyway, if you build it, you can try both techniques. ☺
Best regards,
Jim Smith
But, no, I can't build it and try both! :-((
If I fire them down the long wall then I will use George Cardas's "golden trapagon" theory to have a room which expands towards the listener.
Alternatively, if I choose a "fire across the room" setup, the room will be a cuboid. Plus, the position of the gear/LP storage in the room and the position of the holes in the slab for the IB subs (firing down into the garage below) will be different.
Regards,
Andy
In the interest of not confusing you further, I'll not venture any more opinions beyond the following one that I always offer when I speak at seminars:
Out of many hundreds, maybe over a thousand detailed voicings of systems all over North America in the past 30+ years, I have personally never heard a room built to meet design criteria supplied by famous designers (who have fabulous theories, but they are all different from each other re the theoretically best rooms and set-ups) that allowed for the complete maximization of the full potential of the system.
They may exist somewhere - I just never heard one that really delivered the goods.
Sometimes the clients who had these rooms liked what they had, until they had a reference for what else could be acheived.
I normally advise basic stuff - like building the largest rectangular room you can, with wood floors if possible, stay away from even multiples on the dimensions, and when you get in there, make it work.
Addressing HVAC, electrical, materials, and room treatments are additional topics.
Let us know what you decided on and how it turned out. What an exciting opportunity lies before you!
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Why not 19x15 room, so that you can try both set ups and choose?
Regards
Bill
Unfortunately, Bill, I have to plan the room layout before having a chance to listen to the result! :-((
Room dimensions are not so much the issue but "firing down the long wall" vs. "firing across the room" each imply different setups in terms of where the sources and the LP storage goes.
Regards,
Andy
Avoid sitting against wall, if possible.
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Since you have a blank sheet of paper, NOW'S the time to consider all your options.
Just my opin, but I've never had the best luck with BTW seating. I prefer being 1/4 or 1/3 into the room. Actually, 'phi', but thats just me. See anything about Cardas and use of the phi ratio.
Be that as it may, you should make more detailed plans for construction of this room other than where you'll sit.
You'll want 2 or MORE exclusive electrical circuits.
a 36" exterior door would be nice, since it is much a better sound insulator than the hollow core interior door you will probably end up with.
I'd float the wall common to the rest of the house. Double row of 2x4 studs, OFFSET to produce a 6" thick wall, into which some sound absorbant material goes.
Another option is double drywall. This is cheap and provides a little more sound insulation.
Yet another option is built-ins. Bookshelves with properly arranged books make for an attractive diffusor. A small alcove for equipment, located with the outlets, may help get the equipment more attractively secured.
If it were only as simple as BTW or NOT?
Too much is never enough
interesting to see you ask for advice . . .
H.F.N.
I was stuck with this situation a few years back. The couch was directly against the rear wall which left the listener's head within a few inches of the wall when sitting normally.
When listening critically, the stereo image (soundstage) would shift dramatically as one leaned back & forth or turned the head. Bass quality would also change as the head moved back and forth, but not when turning it.
This could be improved quite a bit if a good acoustic panel is placed behind the head, but still not as ideal as having the sitting position further away from the wall.
andy ignored my inquiries on planar board.
H.F.N.
No problems here mate.
No absorption either, and I am convinced that such seating is probably a must with the rooze setup.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
It is something I maybe need to try, if I decide on the long-wall position (ie. firing across the smaller dimension).
Thanks, DR.
Andy
I have zero problems with rear reflections.
If my wife finds out that I posted this image from a toe-in calibration, THEN I will have problems...
Behind my wife, on the wall, 34"away from her ears, that's a 2" inch thick RPG VariScreen with the absorptive side out.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
For absorbant panels behind the listener's head in such a set-up, how tall does the panel need to be. Would I be OK with a panel only a few feel tall?
An absorbent panel, vertically centered behind your ears, can probably be 24" high.
For instance, my RPG panels are only 24" high, when placed horizontally.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Many many thanks.
What? Chairs with arms? No loveseat?
You already have trouble. :)
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If she sees this, it won't be ME that ratted you out.
However, if seen by her, you won't even hear the cocking of the gun.
Too much is never enough
I had to use BAW when I had my MMG's. On the wall behind my head I put a DIY absorber panel which was 6ft wide, 2ft high and 4" thick. The panel's center was right behind my head. This panel effectively killed sound reflections off of the wall. You could turn your head with one ear towards the speakers and the other ear to the panel (6" away), and only hear sound from the ear on the speaker side. It really helped with imaging too. The bass was really nice there too. Strong and clear.
Reflections off the back wall make things sound unclear and louder to me. I don't even like reflections off the leather seat cushion behind my ear (I try to keep my ears above the top of the cushion, and a few inches away from the cushion). But my preference is more extreme than most people, in that I'd prefer a room with no walls. :)
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The last time I tried this was a few years ago with my old Revel Studio speakers. I found that the bass sounded smeared, (i.e. not clear and tight). Merely by pulling the couch out a foot or two helped, a lot. I would never go back to that setup to be honest.
My current listening position, (turned 180 degrees from the aforementioned position), is much better, in as that as I have a good two feet between the back of the couch and the rear wall. (And so when I listen, my head is about three feet from the rear wall, due to the design of my couch.) Everything seems to be in much better focus now.
My two cents worth anyway.
Good Luck!
making a comeback! Tee hee hee
If you have absolutely no choice, what are you going to do? Not have a rig? No. So, then you must, and the choice of speakers will somewhat dictate whether you need to do so.
If you have a choice, don't opt for it. I would suggest a near field setup over a back against the wall setup, especially if there is a window behind the listening chair!
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
There will not be a window behind the chair.
And the speakers will be my current (one-of-a-kind) 3-way active Maggies.
And in terms of " If you have absolutely no choice, what are you going to do? Not have a rig? No! " ... is correct.
But I have to choose between either:
1. A convential "fire-down-the-length" setup, in which case I will use Goerge Cardas's "golden trapagon" theory so that:
* the front wall (behind the speakers) is 7.2' x 11.8', and
* the back wall is 9.2' x 15'.
2. An across-the-room setup, with the speakers on a long wall. In which case, the ceiling will be flat and the dimensions will be:
* length 19', and
* width 14.1'.
In either scenario, I could certainly adopt a nearfield - say 7' - listening position (which is about half what I have in my current, much bigger room.
I'm tossing up between the 2 options, as I have to give my decision to the architect. :-))
Regards,
Andy
put a mirrored wall behind the Maggies? You know, like those half-assed workout rooms in hotels, where there are three machines and at first you think, "Yesss, big workout room," but then see the mirror and know it's all B.S.
It would sound like crap, but you could tell impressionable visitors that the soundstage has nearly limitless depth - and see if they get it.
Seriously, sounds like you have two viable options for placement without scrunching against the wall. You'll be ok. :)
The greatest impediment to advancing an audiophile system is the audiophile.
...excellent sound sitting back against the wall in Sea Cliff at HPs in his smallish room with his large Infinity IRS speakers system back in the mid-1980s.
But I think you will find it sounds better out from the wall a little.
Currently I'm out 32" from the back wall in my 14' X 17' X 8' room.
For best results, experiment to find out what sounds best - it took me a number of months to find the best speaker and listening position when I moved to this room.
My previous room was a purpose built 27' X 17' X 10.5' room.
I would say the ideal size is in between the two rooms.
There's an interesting thread about this exact topic at AudioCircle:
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I've often found it to be the best choice for the smoothest overall bass. But not always.
Everyone who has been to my listening room has pronounced the bass anywhere from excellent to the best they ever heard. In this case, I'm about three feet from the rear wall.
Rear wall reflections are managed with a combination of absorption & dispersion, in my case, mostly absorption.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Did, you ever try it with the seat at the rear wall, Jim?
If so, how did that compare to 3' out?
Thanks,
Andy
Closest I ever tried it with any success was with Avantgardes at 22" out (from ear to wall).
But it took more absorption.
Actually worked pretty well.
Closer than that, bass was too heavy, never too light.
In my current set-up, the REL B-1s (just behind the Tannoys) are working from 26 Hz down, so the bass requirements (which definitely includes seat placement) are slightly different.
That also applies to a few Maggie systems as well, going back to the Tympani 1Bs in one installation that I particularly remember. In that room, getting any closer than about 20" produced a kind of nasal coloration.
All things being equal, I prefer to be out into the room more, but all too often our smaller rooms won't permit it.
And of course John Dunlavy preferred near-back wall seat placement.
Hey, aren't you both Aussies? :)
Best regards,
Jim Smith
OK, so it sounds like an across-the-room setup might actually work for me ... but my ears might need to be anywhere from 1' to 3' out from the wall. And I may have to put an absorbant panel on the wall behind my head, like RickeyM suggested.
And i.Indeed we are both Aussies ... but John's the famous one! :-((
Thanks,
Andy
...BAW, because I have no other choice.
I've always heard this was not good, but cannot hear why. I do not notice any ill effects. Bass is full and I do not hear any reflections off the rear wall. I'd imagine they are there ...but I'm not hearing any problems with it.
Like many things in audio, this is probably one of those things that can swing either way.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
"Bass is full" - that's waht I wanted to hear!! :-))
Thanks,
Andy
...is that there may be bass standing waves at the front and rear walls.
Get a CD with test tones and walk around the room while the playing bass frequencies.
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I've written on several occasions about the performance of a dedicated room that is 19' x 14' x 10'.
AFAIK, it has the fewest adjacent resonances in the critical boundary-dependent region of any room in that general size category.
But it has to be that size, and without any odd shapes or features in the room to work that well. And it has to have very few items in it - in other words a dedicated listening room. I have no idea if it'd be any good as a living/listening room, cluttered with furniture - that would actually affect the room geometry.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Jim, mine will be very close to that - at 19' x 14.1 x 8.9' (for the fixed length, and limitations in the range of potential ceiling heights, these are the dimensions which give the best modal behaviour, according to the THX Room Calc spreadsheet which I have).
And it will be, basically, a dedicated listening room - although not that "dedicated" that I can have weird absorbtion treatments scatterd around the room!! :-)) But some kind of absorbing panel on the backwall, if I'm sitting in a "back-nearly-against-the-wall" position, should not lead to divorce.
The only furniture will be a 2-seater couch and there will be a custom amplifier/XO box behind each 3-way active Maggie. Source equipment & LP storage will be against the other wall to where the panels are.
Thanks,
Andy
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