|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
70.95.68.123
Will my ripped CDs ever sound as good as vinyl at 45rpm?
My main system is digital with no preamp, just a computer as source. I rip my CDs to FLAC. My alternate system is tiny and a fraction of the cost of the main system, but on it I play only vinyl 45s. The digital system used to sound better, 45s had just a little something the digital system didn't have. Then I got a Zerodust and everything changed. Now I feel like I can hear to the bottom of the recording on vinyl and it has a lot the digital system doesn't have. The resolution is much greater and the sound is much more lifelike. The vinyl system sounds like real music and the digital system sounds like a representation of music.
Is this the nature of the beast, or can ripped CDs be made to sound as good as vinyl 45s?
Digital system:
- FLAC files on a Linux computer with relatively quiet power supply running mpd bit-perfect
- Wireworld Starlight USB cable
- Wavelength Proton USB DAC wrapped in two layers of conductive foam
- Nordost Baldur interconnect
- Bryston 3B-ST amp
- Nordost Blue Heaven speaker wire
- Magnepan MMG speakers heavily modified on Sound Anchor stands
- everything on Barry's isolation stands with Rollerblock Jr. HDSE cups and Tungsten Carbide grade 10 balls
- computer and amp connected to separate Tripp Lite isolation transformers with Pangea AC-9 power cables
- all >=2.4Ghz wireless signals in the apartment are disabled
Vinyl system:
- Pro-Ject Debut III with built-in preamp and acrylic platter upgrade
- Ortofon OM20 cartridge
- generic interconnect
- Audioengine 2A powered speakers
- Belkin PureAV PCOCC speaker wire
- turntable and powered speakers connected to the same Tripp Lite isolation transformer with stock power cables
- stylus brush, Zerodust, and record brush used after each side
I think the Tripp Lite isolation transformers must be the weak link in my digital system, but a BPT BP-1 Ultra arrives tomorrow. I tried an RSA Haley but it couldn't handle the electrical noise levels in this apartment. The Tripp Lite isolators cut the noise completely but they aren't audiophile-grade.
Follow Ups:
It would seem your question would have much more meaning to the growing number of people who are now discovering finer audio but didn't grow up with the LP. Ask this question over on The Computer Audiophile and I'd expect you'd find a different bias.
Unless faced with a logistical issue you don't hear of to many people getting rid of their LP collections anymore? Are you?
IMO there is a fundamental difference in presentation that digital will never capture just as LP playback will never be completely be free of surface noise or tracking issues, the virtues of digital.
It's all good.
" IMO there is a fundamental difference that digital will never capture " WOW , I used to say that a bunch of years ago too. Never is a long time, and I think it passed about three years ago, at least in my system.
Regards
I'm so happy for you.
At sixty three never ain't that long.
"IMO there is a fundamental difference in presentation that digital will never capture just as LP playback will never be completely be free of surface noise or tracking issues, the virtues of digital.
It's all good."
10-4 on that.
Another thing is the limitation of low bass on vinyl - high amplitude low frequencies eat up real estate and therefore significantly affects available playing time. An hour-long CD doesn't have this limitation.
On many newer vinyl masters I'm finding a great deal of low bass. But in general, yes, they mastered it out. There is always that Telarc 1812 with the cannon shot at the end. I went through a few copies before I found the equipment that could actually track it.
Another fun thing about an LP that went to CD is some of the extra cuts. Yeah, I'm done with the better thing. I listen to more digital music throughout the day because of its convenience which makes sitting down to an LP somehow more enjoyable.
I have heard a half dozen or so audiophile reissue LP's that impressed me less than their SHM SACD and/or K2HD disc counterparts, but overall in my experience, most LP reissues I've heard provide a more immersive, satisfying experience. If I could afford one of the analogue playback systems I've heard I would no doubt be back to buying vinyl again, but at some point one must balance their budget with their needs.
Still can't figure out what all the commotion is about, I have mid fi digital and analog sources and enjoy both equally, but for different reasons. No issues here.
are you making comparisons with?This is seriously driving me crazy that people with cd/vinyl statements do not tell us what decades and types of music they are comparing. Because of their assumptions that all audiophiles listen to the same cds and records, I have needlessly wasted money.
Do you have vinyl from 70s analog recorded rock, 1950s jazz, or 2010s new releases where the vinyl was recorded from a digital medium?
Not all vinyl is the same!
I listen to new releases on pop, indie, hip-hop. There is no way that vinyl will ever surpass digital on these musics. The current aesthetic style of recording and mastering these days does not favor vinyl, the lack of vinyl cutting skills these days is a big factor, and the phono stage creates losses that are not found with digital. Keep in mind, it is important to weed out people who favor one or the other, when they have not put equal thought and time and consideration into both. I am not one of those people who favors X strictly because he spent more money on X. It is the opposite.
I have spent far more money and time setting up my analog eqiupment than digital, with so many types of alignments, cartridges, tonearms, platters, mats, preamps, vtas, bearings, coupling/decoupling, etc. I was able to make new vinyl music sound very good, but not as great as on digital. It had nothing to do with the playback equipment, or money, or time spent, or whether I was using a KAB SL1200MKII or Rega, whether I was using the stock tonearm or Origin Live, whether I was using the stock materials or sapphire/zirconia or whatever. It had everything to do with musical genre and decade!
Yes I can put on a classic MoFi record and it has excellent realism that no digital can match. But at the same time, people must realize that on new indie rock the cd release is far better than the vinyl release. No comparison!
Put on the same indie rock vinyl and cd. Flip the preamp select knob. The cd is so lifelike, the vinyl so flat. The cd so in-the-room, the vinyl so artificial and lacking expected detail.
My digital side is easy. Computer to firewire, to toslink, to reclock, to audio note dac. ERS sheets in everything. Ceramic fuses in everything. Everything on steady regenerated AC power.
Audiophiles need to wake up to the fact that not all of us are jazz/classical/70s rock music listeners. Music today comes over digital download or cd with very little loss in the mastering to distribution chain. Vinyl has much more lossy detractors prior to even hitting the playback equipment, and even then has to go through multiple lossy analog and mechanical processes to feed into another imperfect EQ phono stage even before it goes into the preamp.
Pick your decade, pick your music, pick your playback equipment.
There are lots of indie rock vinyl heads, but they have had vinyl since childhood and have no need to ever build a comparable digital rig. So they stick with what sounds good to them.
I started buying vinyl equipment in 2009 I think, because of all those un-qualified comments and assumptions that led me wrong.
Edits: 03/09/12 03/09/12
If I add the Musical Fidelity DAC to my budget CD player, will it equal a budget Turntable, say the lowest priced Rega?
Trying to avoid buying LPs all over again.
Cheers
Bill
...the minute you get a digital front end that sounds better than your anolog front end.
You're not going to tell me you believe the Debut III cannot be bested, are you?
And after that, the minute you get an analog front end that sounds better than your upgraded digital you'll be back to where you are now.
...was compared to a $16,000 Spectral CD player on a Wilson Sophia, cj preamp, big VTL amps system.
It was a computer music server with an analog HD and no moving parts. I suspect the music was WAV files. Must have cost him about $3000.
Operated it from his laptop on the couch.
After the comparison, my friend who owned both, sold the Spectral.
Too bad there was no turntable to compare.
"It was a computer music server with an analog HD and no moving parts. I suspect the music was WAV files. Must have cost him about $3000."
What's an "analog HD"? .....
What was the server system, may I ask?
...it was a solid state hard drive.
And I think the laptop may have had a cable going to the dedicated desktop music computer on the floor near the equipment rack.
.....you meant solid-state drive....... You had my hopes up for a while........ [-;
Many such impulsive decisions are made in subjective haste. Unfortunately they are most often regretted shortly after. Been there, done that. Type of music can also influence decisions.
dave_b
The Denon table and AT440MLA I paid $400 sounds better than my Rega DAC.
A lot better.
You cannot just 'buy a better digital front end' and beat the sound from a good turntable.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
There is no digital source better than a Pro-ject Debut III??
I own a Pro-Ject debut III and IMO my Rega Apollo sounds better. You may not agree about the Apollo, but surely you agree that there is some digital source somewhere better than the Pro-Ject Debut III, no?
I've had my own internal vinyl vs digital conflicts ... depending on the equipment @hand, both have won their share of battles, each battle inevitably improved my system ... but the war continues ...
tb1
"You cannot just 'buy a better digital front end' and beat the sound from a good turntable."
Better crushes good.
Heard a $50K plus, vinyl based system yesterday at my local dealer while I was waiting to pick up a subwoofer...WOW!! I wanted to run home to my digital based system immediately:O( It reminded me of all the obvious shortfalls, such as clicks and pops and static, but also shocked me at just how compressed the sound was vs my system at home.
dave_b
Are you implying any digital based system would sound better than a 50k plus vinyl system?
Nope. I'm simply saying that the sound was not very good on that system. I've heard other vinyl based systems that sounded fine....but current digital, I believe, is moving ahead, all things being equal:O)
dave_b
"I've heard other vinyl based systems that sounded fine....but current digital, I believe, is moving ahead, all things being equal:O)"
Huh? Sounds like a noncommittal, vague attempt to get back on topic. :^)
Not really, this is just my experience and not an absolute for anyone else. I just expected to be like..Oh my God, it's vinyl!!! But it was more like, get me out of here:O( Depends on the system obviously. I have had many reference digital systems over the years and recently they are sounding extremely musical and without the typical digititus or glare.
dave_b
Nah, he can't be saying that. That'd be as crazy as saying the Pro-Ject Debut III will sound better than any digital rig.
Not to mention vibration isolation, demagnetization and deionization of ICs, room treatment, etc. Noone promised you a rose garden.
Stranger things have happened I suppose.
*
---------------------------
Maybe the question should be, will vinyl ever sound as good as CD's. My sources are about equal.
“Will my ripped CDs ever sound as good as vinyl at 45rpm?”I think the sample rate and bit depth are insufficient to capture vinyl at its absolute full resolution........ The ideal sample rate for digital audio IMO would be 60 kHz, with 18-bit wordlength.
“My main system is digital with no preamp, just a computer as source. I rip my CDs to FLAC.”
As long as you convert back to WAV prior to playing back, you’re OK. I don’t like how FLAC or other lossless compression sounds when decoded in real time.
“My alternate system is tiny and a fraction of the cost of the main system, but on it I play only vinyl 45s.”
I don’t know of an audiophile grade turntable that plays only 7-inch 45s............
“The digital system used to sound better, 45s had just a little something the digital system didn't have. Then I got a Zerodust and everything changed. Now I feel like I can hear to the bottom of the recording on vinyl and it has a lot the digital system doesn't have. The resolution is much greater and the sound is much more lifelike. The vinyl system sounds like real music and the digital system sounds like a representation of music.”
Join the club........
There is more and more news that vinyl is making a comeback..............
“Is this the nature of the beast, or can ripped CDs be made to sound as good as vinyl 45s?”
A good dedicated CD player in my opinion sounds better than ripping CDs to a computer and playing them pack there.
“Digital system:
- FLAC files on a Linux computer with relatively quiet power supply running mpd bit-perfect
- Wireworld Starlight USB cable
- Wavelength Proton USB DAC wrapped in two layers of conductive foam
- Nordost Baldur interconnect
- Bryston 3B-ST amp
- Nordost Blue Heaven speaker wire
- Magnepan MMG speakers heavily modified on Sound Anchor stands
- everything on Barry's isolation stands with Rollerblock Jr. HDSE cups and Tungsten Carbide grade 10 balls
- computer and amp connected to separate Tripp Lite isolation transformers with Pangea AC-9 power cables
- all > =2.4Ghz wireless signals in the apartment are disabled”I’d do all files in non-compressed WAV. Or convert the FLAC files to temporary WAV files as a separate step prior to playing the tracks.
I once used the USB cable you have....... You might want to upgrade to WyWires..... I like it a lot better.
“Vinyl system:
- Pro-Ject Debut III with built-in preamp and acrylic platter upgrade
- Ortofon OM20 cartridge”It only plays “45s?”
“- generic interconnect
- Audioengine 2A powered speakers
- Belkin PureAV PCOCC speaker wire
- turntable and powered speakers connected to the same Tripp Lite isolation transformer with stock power cables
- stylus brush, Zerodust, and record brush used after each side”I don’t think any PC based playback will beat this, as long as you have the vinyl rig set up properly...... Even a dedicated CD player would have a hard time.
“I think the Tripp Lite isolation transformers must be the weak link in my digital system, but a BPT BP-1 Ultra arrives tomorrow.”
The Tripp Lite is fine. The OneAC CP11xx series is even better. The products targeted for industrial use IMO are no worse than the products targeted for audiophile use. And they’re far less expensive.
“I tried an RSA Haley but it couldn't handle the electrical noise levels in this apartment. The Tripp Lite isolators cut the noise completely but they aren't audiophile-grade.”
As I stated, the Tripp Lite is a good product.
Edits: 03/08/12
It's how you decide to allocate your resources. Equipment aside, one setup could simply be better than the other.
For example, your preference for vinyl may be due to favoring a near field setup. There are infinite other pro and con variables. Frankly, an unfair consideration for an outsider.
....when your cartridge wears out.
That much is obvious.
exactly and if the OP has some age on him like me, grew up listening to vinyl for 25 years because that's all there was really, everything else sounds...different
IME, No.
I had one - it's harsh. I understand the 3B SST2 is far superior. You
may even want to try a 4B SST2, or even a good tube amp.
Not in this lifetime.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
NO!!!! 16/44.1 digital will never sound as good as vinyl. Compact disc was never conceived to be state of the art (to be fair vinyl was not either). Cd's meet the bare minimum of what is/was considered to be acceptable sound to the masses. Of course the new higher rez formats close the gap considerably and there are a number of debates pro and con. Paul McGowen (of PS Audio fame), who's company makes a considerable amount of $$$ off of high end digital products said in a Absolute Sound interview (I'll paraphrase here because I am too lazy to look up the exact quote); High end digital struggles to reach what is easily attainable from even a modest analog set-up... I do not believe he, or anyone else is "bashing" cd by saying such things; He's was just calling it as he saw it.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
From Empirical Audio's website
Recommendations for Computer Audio
General Recommendations
Rip to WAV or AIFF files if possible
Try Upsampling 44.1 files to 24/96 using S/W programs: SRC, iTunes, R8Brain or Adobe Audition - Wave Editor on Mac (Instructions are on the Empirical Audio audiocircle.com forum)
Avoid ripping to ALAC or other compressed formats using iTunes
Avoid using iTunes on a PC for audio playback
Using iTunes by itself on Mac compromises sound quality and resamples files unless you specify sample-rate. Use Amarra, Pure Music or AyreWave on Mac. We find full Amarra version 1.2 to be the best sounding, although its not the most stable. We are optimistic about 2.1.1. The Equalizer function of Amarra is wonderful and essential for best system optimization.
Set 64-bit mode on PC or Mac for better sound quality.
Avoid Windows Media Player on PCs. Use instead Foobar, Jriver or Media Monkey. Better sound quality
If using a PC with XP, always bypass KMIXER using Kernal Streaming. If Vista or Win7, use WASAPI:
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_wasapi
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd371455(VS.85).aspx
USB Recommendations
Mac Mini has the least problematic USB ports.
Recent PC Laptops are recommended, particularly those with ungrounded power cords. We have had good luck with Toshiba,HP, Macbook and Mac Mini. Not so good with Dell.
If you are using USB output to one of our products, we recommend that you try more than one USB port on the computer. They are often not equal. The latency or time it takes to service them varies even on the same computer. Some are even USB 1.1 and not USB 2.0 compliant.
Dedicate the Laptop to music playback if you are using USB. Using the computer for lots of other tasks can cause conflicts, increase latency and cause popping in the audio.
If you are using USB for audio streaming, do not attach ANY other USB devices to the computer, even a mouse and particularly not USB disks.
Remove or stop all unnecessary tasks, even screen-savers and virus scanners.
Set the player to have the highest priority.
PCs with faster processors work better, minimum 1.5GHz
Vista needs 4GB RAM and XP 2GB RAM
For Mac, 4GB is minimum RAM.
Software Recommendations
Rippers:
The best ripper we have found for PC (the best overall) is dbpoweramp professional with Accurate-Rip enabled:
http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm
For Mac, we recommend XLD for ripping (also enable Accurate-Rip):
http://tmkk.pv.land.to/xld/index_e.html
Also worth trying is MAX:
http://sbooth.org/
Players:
For PC, try Foobar 0.8.3, Jriver, Media Monkey and XXhighend:
http://www.phasure.com/index.php?board=1.0
Upsamplers:
For PC, the best upsampler is Adobe Audition:
http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/?promoid=DJDVV
For Mac, the best upsampler is Wave Editor (uses Izotope code):
http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/waveeditor/
---------------------------
"Try Upsampling 44.1 files to 24/96 using S/W programs: SRC ....."
I read something like this, and want to just throw something through the computer screen..... This is maybe the single worst suggestion for playing back CD-quality files.......
This is why I haven't delved into computer audio, too many frigging forks in the road! I'm happy just plopping a cd into the tray and hitting play on the remote.
---------------------------
I think the "KISS" principle applies well here. ("Keep It Simple, St.....")
Steve has some good info on that site.Though IME here is a much better site though it is more "techy"
Though gg is using linux so most of the software stuff wont apply.
He should look for some posts from John Swenson and Soundcheck with linux as the keyword.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Edits: 03/08/12
As I understand it, you are comparing two different systems, so you cannot validly conclude that vinyl 45s sound better than digital, only that one system sounds better than the other.
You could try playing some digital recordings in your smaller system.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
I have reached the conclusion after a certain amount of tweaking that I can't get clean enough records to best my digital rig, but I enjoy records that sound near mint as much as my digital rig (vinyl is preamped with a Sansui 8080DB, nearfield monitored with Klipsch kg2's, sent to my computer which is 24/192 upsampled with schiit bifrost DAC and a Pioneer SX-838 and Klipsch Forte I's). My overall vinyl quality is up since buying a Thorens TD-165 and Spin Clean record cleaner.
Freedom is the right to discipline yourself.
GG,
my 2 cents is that you can improve your digital.
If you are using fans on the computer, you need to get rid of that. It is possible with some knowledge to create an audio computer with zero fans. Pretty easy actually.
They pollute the power, and just the background noise is enough to kill resolution.
Ditch flac. Try some waves and see if you can hear a difference...do this last after you address the fans and what I mention below.
On the mmgs, you mention they are heavily modded, but have you done the choke tweak?? If not please do. Rf is crucial and if you turned off your wireless what about the rest of the building. And bypass the fuses or at least replace the steel jumper if you havent already done so. What mods did you do?
Now for the equipment. I wont publicly comment on them but the problem seems one of matching. We talked before I think and IIRC the idea is that async usb makes what happens on the computer side irrelevant. Unfortunately that is not true so if you havent, try some cables and do look at your linux settings.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
I have heard dramatic improvements in digital sound in players and servers and think there is no question that playing from a computer is superior. I recently had a chance to hear an old Marantz cd player. Having once had this unit, I must say that it is hard for me to tolerate what I heard and surprise that I ever did.
All of that not withstanding, my vinyl playback, also with great improvement over what it used to me, just is shockingly superior. At this very moment I am suffering with an air pump that doesn't work to allow my using my airbearing and tonearm turntable. It should be only a few days now until I am up and running.
Perhaps HD recordings will close the gap as I have heard some that clearly are superior.
The only thing that I can clearly say about digital is that it is convenient. I use an Ipad with the remote app and can merely touch what I want to play and have it. Compared with playing the superior 45 rpm records, this is so convenient that I often think of digitizing my 45s onto my harddrive and just sit back and touch all four disks of these and hear all replayed. This would also have the advantage of hearing them with a digital RIAA correction.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: