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Any info on Cayin, Shenga and Original from China? I've heard of the brand Cayin but the others I have no clue, seems like the Chinese are catching up with the world of "high end audiophile" products and beating the good ole U.S of A on prices
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On the issue of quality, 50 years people were still dismissing the quality of Japanese products; 20 years later Japanese goods epitomized quality at reasonable prices. Will we see this from China? I say count on it -- and it won't take 20 years.In the bigger picture, greed prevails. No use whining about lack of human rights, worker welfare, industrial polution, trade deficit or the like: consumers will buy Chinese goods if their cheaper, and especially if they're perceived to be better values. North American, European, and yes! Japanese domestic manufacturers can kiss their butts go buy. And this is likely to be true even if they outsource assembly to China, because the Chinese makers are already seeking their own brand recognition and will succeed in getting it before long.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
Form what I have reviewed, the build and quality is exemplary and the prices are a fraction of what you'd for something built in the west. The only western companies who do not have reason to fear are the longtime value/service salwarts (NAD, Bryston, etc). The rest need to wake up and smell the trade deficit.
A co-worker of mine visited China and toured some factories there that employ children. With the warning that China is not a free country, and it is possible for the governemt to control what Americans see and don't see, her experience was revelatory. The factory she visited (non-audio) is a campus with dormitory facilities, schools and recreation areas. They receive applications from all over China from parents eager to send their children to work in this factory. While there, they receive room and board and a good education, all at no expense to the family. It is considered one of the main ways for poor families to get their children out of poverty.
A co-worker of mine visited China and toured some factories there that employ children. With the warning that China is not a free country, and it is possible for the governemt to control what Americans see and don't see, her experience was revelatory. The factory she visited (non-audio) is a campus with dormitory facilities, schools and recreation areas. They receive applications from all over China from parents eager to send their children to work in this factory. While there, they receive room and board and a good education, all at no expense to the family. It is considered one of the main ways for poor families to get their children out of poverty.
Do the children make hi-fi equipment?
Your kind of recycling your posts aren't you?You went through this same discussion a couple months back on a-gon (and probably here as you dual post on each). I noted your re-post of the "which audio rack" discussion on both sites a week or two ago.
So whats your point? Maybe I post on different boards to get other peoples opinions, last time I checked, the USA was a free country with freedom on speech and I have served my country proudly in Iraq/Afghanistan and other parts of the world so I would appreciate that if you dont have anything good to say, dont say anything at all and show some respect. Calling "people trolls" is not a very educated opinion. Ignorance has the best part of you, doesnt it?
This guy mostly does these quasi-troll-like posts on each forum here and, aparently, elsewhere too.On Vinyl, he posted two almost identical "Gee whiz and golly, I really want to like LPs, but isn't this kind of a PITA to deal with the set-up and cleaning, and blah, blah, blah?"
I say quasi troll like, because they aren't overtly inflammatory or controversial, but are all things that have been discussed a million times before, have no right or wrong answers, and seem aimed at either provoking protest or argument.
EXTREMELY TIRESOME!
You are unlikely to get a response though. He rarely steps back in to join the discourse that results from his OPs.
So whats your point? Maybe I post on different boards to get other peoples opinions, last time I checked, the USA was a free country with freedom on speech and I have served my country proudly in Iraq/Afghanistan and other parts of the world so I would appreciate that if you dont have anything good to say, dont say anything at all and show some respect. Calling "people trolls" "extremely tiresome" etc is not a very educated opinion. Lastly, I decided not to be controversial or argumentative for a reason, personally I dont feel the need to nor the need to waste my time to answer to ignorance.
hit and miss quality wise and ASL started off as affordable but look at the prices now. Seems to me china is flooding the market putting others out of business than raising prices.Still without all the affordable gear they produce many audiophiles might be out of luck.
I own a ShengYa CD S-10 CDP modified by R.A.M. and it's been a solid performer. I also own TAD-1000 monoblock amps as well as TAD-150 pre-amp. I couldn't be happier with this equipment. The build quality is excellent and the sound is fantastic. I dont think I could have purchased tube gear without buying Chinese. Remember people called the first Japanese cars junk. Now look where they are!!
china is the world's largest marketplace and exporter of illegal, pirated merchandise. they also have a distain for fair labor practices.....enjoy the music, while the 3 fingered kids keep makin' those amps.....they can spend the money they make on a pirated copy of spiderman 3 if they ever get a day off.
nt
anything i can avoid, i do.....
Poor you ... need to move to another planet
...I'd never have been able to afford a good tubed phono stage and headphone amplifier (as in fully tube -- the Ming Da MC767-RD and the ASL MG Head OTL32 DT). The phono stage sounds like cheap tube gear, which it certainly is -- $250 plus shipping on eBay. The sound isn't terrific and it has a noise problem, and it uses a 6N6-T tube that's almost completely unavailable in the West (only one online store that I know of carries it, and it's based in France), but you get what you pay for. In any case, I love the thing: it's fully tube-rectified and -regulated and sounds it, shortcomings aside. The headphone amplifier is also terrific. I'm not sure how it compares to the Musical Fidelity X-CAN V3 that it replaced; it's certainly a lot more fun. It sounds completely different in that the X-CAN is basically a hybrid amplifier and sounds a lot more SS with a sort of tube coloring. Everything else I own is either from U.S. manufacturers or is homemade. I have a Monarchy DAC, which is made in and based in the USA. I don't know if the money goes back home to China, though, but I don't really care: Mr. Poon can do what he wants with it. It's no import made for a bowl of rice a day.I don't really feel all that guilty about owning two Chinese-made pieces of equipment. I do have mixed feelings about Chinese goods in general, and had mixed feelings about buying these at the time. There are a number of reasons to buy American and in particular not to buy Chinese, but it's hard to help getting at least one or two things when the price is right. Chinese stuff tends to be dirt-cheap as far as hi-fi goes, and it's a strong temptation. If I were rich I'd keep my integrity completely intact, but I have to go the affordable route. It's sort of the Wal-Mart dilemma for me.
if it cripples those who respect human rights, and laws....enjoy the music
> if it cripples those who respect human rights, and laws....enjoy the double standards
- This signature is two channel only -
Give me rhythm or give me death!
The tank stopped after trying to edge around him.
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if it provides an opportunity for a better future. Something that didn't exist in the past.American workers had to struggle to achieve their current level of protection of rights starting from exploitation.
I think workers in developing nations will have to endure such struggles themselves. As workers in China and third world nations begin to achieve such protections American manufacturing will benefit becoming more desireable again. And it's possible worker protections will be eased, possibly a good thing as many believe we've went to far.
workers and owners in most developing countries don't flagrantly steal intellectual properties and technologies, and turn it into the largest black market marketplace in civilized history
I'm not an economics expert but from my understanding it's Chinese investment that's helping to float the US market - with the help of the record oil prices, the war and the now deflating home refinancing buldge.We'll be bankrupt by the time we break the legs out of the Islamic Extremists arsenal. Before we finish China will have reannexed Taiwan and will stand as the world sole economic superpower.
Hope they remember how we've helped them out.
I've got a dealer unfortunately he isn't stocking the gear I'd be most interested in owning. I ended up buying a Melody i2A3 integrated and I get a Raysonic CD128 today - stuff I could hear before I bought. Both of these are manufactured in China - though I think Melody is an Aussie company and Raysonic Canadian.Build and sound quality on the stuff I'm buying is amazing. I think ASL gives up a bit as far as build quality goes (maybe I'm wrong) but I can't help thinking it might offer even more audio/sound quality for the dollar.
US consumers appear to have no problem buying European HiFi, but for some reason there's a moral dilemna with Chinese products?
And the EU is a little more advanced on the environmental front than is China...even when the EU goes overboard, as with lead solder.
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It’s the reputation of producing cheap knock-offs that deters me. They’ve already demonstrated just how masterful they are at cloning products like clothing, software, watches, purses, etc. that look like, but don’t perform like the real thing. Furthermore their manufacturing and quality control processes, and willingness to substitute lesser quality parts doesn’t give me a warm an fuzzy feeling of getting something that works or is as actually built to spec.I’m sure there are some good products, but if going with a less known brand…suggest spending a little more by going with a good, local dealer in case there is a problem .
Believe what your ears say - not hearsay.
Yes to some degree you are correct, however, were not buying watches, clothes etc were talking about audio gear with "established" well regarded companies "Jolida, Shanling, Original, Cayin, ming da, meixing etc etc keep in mind that "MOST" U.S products are made in China or some Asian country, their design, engineering was done in the U.S but everything else is made overseas. Sadly but true, I love to support my country in every aspect however "most" of us that love music with a passion cant afford the U.S Prices on audiogear.Look at an example here, Japanese cars were regarded as junk back in the days, look at them now. However, my taste is in German cars lol
Yeah, stuff like clothing, software, watches, purses are not audio products, but check out the newroom section at 6mooons. There’s a recent article of China cloning audio products as well. On the flip side, I’m sure China / Chinese brands are not the only ones guilty of stealing designs, rebranding stuff either. IIRC, there was some questions about the authenticity of some things that came out of non China based companies as well. The recent events with Bent and S&B is a good example.No doubt many products are designed elsewhere and manufactured overseas. However, I gotta assume that the outsourcing company would impose stricter design to spec, quality control metheods on OEM products before putting their name and reputation on it. Defects and manufacturing go hand in hand, the question is are defective products dealt with at the factory or after it reaches the consumer. Again, I’m assuming that the outsourcing company or a local dealer will do a better job of making the consumer happy than the manufacturing plant.
Of the "established" well regarded companies you mentioned, IIRC response audio stopped dealing with either ming da, meixing b/c of build issues. Personally, I thought that Shanling cdp was pretty cool looking, but failed to find one that worked. Three dealers had thiers collecting dust. You maybe better off paying a little more for stuff like Jolida, Eastern Electric, Opera, etc. Regardless of country of origin or brand, do you homework.
As for cars, I won't touch one from the big three again. Good Luck.
practice unfair trade to agreater degreee then other countries. I do not know enough real facts to have an informed opinion on the subject.
Those employed in areas easily counterfeited or outsourced can be sensitive to the original poster's question.Please take a look at this article and ask yourself if you want "Made in China" on your stuff.
Cheers
in the history of the industrialized world. there are only a million examples....google them.
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opinion should be based on facts that are verified.
"opinion should be based on facts that are verified."
Verifed by who?I never take anything as absolute 'fact', but do of course have a sliding scale of probability depending on the source of information.
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see craiger's post above...500b in counterfeit namebrands
we've been manufacturing in China for over two years, and I can certainly understand many of the opinions expressed here on AA. I just returned from my 5th trip to China in two years and it seems like I learn something new each time I visit. One thing you have to keep in mind: Many of the US and European lines that have strong identities as Western manufacturers have parts, components, and finished goods built for them in China. Don't ask, because I won't tell, but you might be shocked. I've seen it first hand.
Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that many of the Chinese HiFi manufacturing facilities have foreign investment and on-site management. Profits make their way back to Europe, the US, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. It's very common.1) Two years ago you could go to the electronics market area of Guangzhou and see lots of B&W, Sonus Faber, and Wilson copies. Now you almost see none and the Chinese Govt. runs ads on TV that discourage copies. They are finally starting to get it.
2) I've visited over 20 factories and have yet to see terrible conditions or rampant child labor. I'm sure they exist, but my supplier won't do business with them. If caught, the Chinese Govt. will shut them down.
3) The Chinese Govt mandates dormitories, food,and healthcare for the workers at the factories where we do business. The pay is low, but for most this is a much better situation than the poverty associated with subsistence farming in the countryside. Sad...but true.
4)There is a perception that Chinese speaker and electronics factories are like one big homogenous group of HiFi suppliers. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You have to seek out the better suppliers, manage your production by remote control, and stick with the guys who understand quality control first....price second. Unfortunately this takes intelligence + hard work ;> )
Our company doesn't "re-badge" Chinese products with our own name brand, but I'm curious.....what do you guys think about that practice?
> > the electronics market area of Guangzhou < <Are you referring to the Haiyin Electronic Market? What a wonderfully interesting place to visit. I took a bunch of photos when I was there a year ago; I should post them on AA.
Rob...yep, that's it. Amazing, isn't it? Did you see the acoustic room treatments and the prices??? Incredible.
I missed the room treatments, how much were they? Haiyin is a huge place so I probably missed quite a bit even though I spent an hour and a half wandering around the marketplace and the neighboring streets.
Rob, you can buy 2'W X 4' tall rpg-like panels for as little as $120 each. In walnut! If you buy 10 or more you can expect a sizable discount over that.
ps...rebadging is fine as long as there is disclosure with consumers
good for the foreign investors, and good for china. everything in china is fine, and copies of spiderman for everyone.
jdouglas51..yeah....your end of the business has taken a huge hit. Is it worse than the illegal download phenomenon here in the US? I really don't know..
most of the downloads are tracked and paid for, but more pirated copies are made in factories and sold on the streets of china and in shops then all the legimate copies combined worldwide. imagine over 500 titles per week in dvd's alone. taiwan and other asian countries play by the rules. even the piracy in latin america is peanuts next to china. we can't expect the notion of licensing and property rights to take hold without showing that there is a price to pay for breaking international laws. everyone i know who deals in products from china believes that their suppliers are the exception. even products that are legitimately made in china are pirated at the same time. the music industry is a 12 billion dollar industry...it is estimated that loses each year from china are in the billions as well.
"the music industry is a 12 billion dollar industry...it is estimated that loses each year from china are in the billions as well."You sound that lots of Chinese there listen to American music. I was there last summumer, could not find a single one there was listening american music. I was able to buy some CDc at a book store, and picked up couple CDs (GSDA 215 ISRC CD-F28-97-415-00/A.J6)(America classic pop music) by SkyMusic (HK). They are dirty cheap, about $2 each. By the way the book store is very large and inside of a huge shopping plaza in Shanghai.
the Chinese attitude toward copies has a "selective" mode. If someone gets caught knocking off Nike shoes using the swoosh and the exact logo they're in deep doo-doo. Same for iPods, certain clothing lines and even most HiFi hardware. For some reason they seem to turn their heads with CDs and DVDs. With people like Jack Valenti and other entertainment industry heavyweights so influential in Washington you'd think it would be different. This is your territory, though, and I'm sure there's a lot more to the story that I'm not aware of.
"the Chinese attitude toward copies has a "selective" mode. ....certain clothing lines and even most HiFi hardware.."beware of using the term of "copy/copies" in this context.
only copying of patented or trademark protecked materials is illegal.
beware???yes, I am aware of the ins and outs of intellectual property, trademarks, and copyrights.. Unauthorized use of the Rolex logo, the Armani logo, the Nike logo, and the Apple logo on products that look exactly like the originals is an infringement.
"..and even most HiFi hardware."Please privde with Chinese amps brand(s) and models that vilated intellectual property, trademarks, and copyrights..
Just one if you know any(?) Your statement is pretty strong, though.
heck...china pirates products that are made in china too. the motivation for audio companies to have their products built there (and then badged with a name that implies a thread to something that no longer exsists) is a very narrow and greedy view of the world. short term benefits and long term disaster.
All I can tell that you like others with full hate, possible carry own agenda on this type of threads.Anything if not under paten, intellectual, trademark, or copyright
protection is OPEN, you do not own it,no matter how do you think off.
We live on 99.99999999...% copied world. Look around you, everything
from your bedroom to your kitchen, to your school.When China made first A-bomb in early 60's and lunched 1st satellite
later 60s, do you call them pirate?Do you accuse Apple Mac OS/mouse pirated Xerox?
Do you accuse Microsoft window OS pirated Mac?
Do you accuse Sony pirate when they started to make TV, and VCR?
Do you accuse these SUV makers pirate Jeep?
Do you accuse these MinVan makers pirate Carvan?I guess you will if they are made by Chinese.
only one i'm aware of...jeep. sony and hundreds of other tv manufacturers had to pay to use certain patented parts. they didn't steal anything.
what f$%king are you suggesting here? Chinese audio factories steals? there are well over 30 Chinese brands here in USA, give a single sample that supports your claim?
heck...china pirates products that are made in china too. the motivation for audio companies to have their products built there (and then badged with a name that implies a thread to something that no loger exsists) is a very narrow and greedy view of the world. short term benefits and long term disaster.
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Where did I accuse a Chinese amp manufacturer of violating intellectual, trademark, or copyright infringement? Go back and read my long post from 4/26....I only mentioned seeing copies of Wilson, Sonus Faber, and B&W products. I have no idea who built them, but I saw them with my own two eyes in the Guangzhou electronics market. And as I said....they've disappeared as far as I know. I've been back 4 times since and it seems to have been cleaned up.What I *did* mention was that copies of certain electronics lines would meet with penalties.
I have had the opportunity to listen to Cayin and Opera/Consonance gear. From a look and feel standpoint the build quality is actually pretty good.The Consonance CD players are quite good. I have also heard an EL34 based amp and Mono's from them - they sounded pretty good too. I have heard the Cayin Integrated and and it was a nice little unit. Ultimately, it comes down to if you like the way they sound. From a build quality and reliability perspective, I think Cayin and Consonance is fine.
I think, in the next years they will grow very fast. At the moment they are interested in high output sales, but that can change.
Sincerely Stitch
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