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Anyone ever get so fed up with their system that they just had to sell it and start over?? Well thats what I did. basically my setup was getting very big, complex and expensive and for what?? I actually was listening to music less and less and found myself focusing more on the "sound" than the music. I also was at a fellow music lovers house and he made me realize i needed a change. His system is so simple and inexpensive yet the music was so enjoyable. Rega p25/Planet/Mira/R1 and it was so musicaly enjoyable, part of the reason i think is that he was spinning mainly vinyl. I am hooked on Vinyl since I got a hand-me-down table a few weeks ago. Anyways I descided I was done with my big expensive system and i have sold it off.
Im now going to build a very small and simple setup for my bedroom. Budget is going to be $1500. I already have my trusty Exposure XV integrated and my laptop. So I need a pair of small floorstanders or mid-lrg sized standmounts. I need a synergestic match with my Exposure XV so a nice British speaker like Epos, Linn, NeatAcoustics would be best. Ive been looking for a used pair of Epos es14 I remeber lusting over them when they were new and they are suppsoed to be a perfect match with Exposure amps. Then I need a inexpensive DAC for my laptop, I dont want to spend much here because i want to switch to vinyl as my main source, I already have the Firestone Fubar2 usb dac which I will most likely hold onto for now. So that would leave roughly $750 or so for a TT. Since i am a newbie its probably the best bet to go with a new plug-n-play table from Rega or Project or Music Hall. SO I am on a mission, musicality in an inexpensive small and simple setup. Wish me luck people.
Follow Ups:
Your friend's system consists of just one brand.Not surprising because system upgrade or building becomes much easier when you stick to one brand since they are all supposed to work together.
Mixing and matching different brands to get a desired result can be an interesting exercise and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience but it wasn't particularly cost effective.
A year ago, I sold a Nagra amp and got a little Nait 3R. Basically, I ditched everything except speakers and started over.
Ever since I have been experimenting with this Nait 3R based system. So far changes I made within the *brand* or tried and true partnering gear has been pretty much a sure thing whilst every time when I introduce something *foreign* to the system, almost always it throws the system balance off kilter. A new piece of kit might enhance some aspects of hifi, yet a musical coherence usually goes out of the window. I do get lucky sometimes but that's by pure luck, really.Like when I realised the LP12/Nait combo actually works better with a WATT 6 than Naim's own or Linn Kan in this room. I guess you still have to figure in the speakers/room compatibility and make necessary adjustments.
The one-make *prefab* type of approach might not be the most exciting thing for aspiring audiophiles, but it's the easiest way to get to the goal ( presumably, enjoying the music and not listening to a hardware ) if a listener finds the brand with a voicing he/she can agree with.
A vinyl playing is an excellent way to stretch a dollar. It certainly makes sense if the music you want to listen to is readily available in the media. I've observed that few folks get into it solely for the sonic reasons without much music to play on. Then find out later that it's too much of a hassle. Not all of us are born tinkers nor slaves for a record cleaning.
I've started out with a rebuilt LP12 for a 850$ including an arm, a cartridge and a set-up. ( my direct-drive days are over )
I am surprised how much this record player gets its use everyday.Good luck finding a system that will give you a musical satisfaction for a long time.
I think you are right, I think system synergy is among the most important aspects of a system. So an full Rega or Naim system will usually sound better than the sum of its parts. The only prtoblem is that there are not many brands out thier that make everything from the source all the way to the speakers.
As for Vinyl I hve had a great time the last few weeks listening to lps on this old Fisher TT! Im a big rock fan and most of the classic rock stuff is abvailable on vinyl, but im a bit afraid that the newer stuff may not be? For example im looking foward to the new Tool albumn due out tommorow but i dont think it can be had on vinyl? So I will still need to keep a cd player or my pc for playing digital. Anyways, my gf is awefully happy the big system is gone, she thinks it was to big and ugly!!! The new system will be set up in the den/computer room/office... Which is "my" room and my gurl doesnt care what I do in there so I can even go with some room treatments! It will get more use as well since I spend most of my free time in that room. But for now I am speaker shopping, I dont have any small speakers suitable for that room, only big Klipschs which are in the basement setup. Id like to put the Exposure Xv to use it hasnt been used in some time since I restored the Fisher 800c for the basement setup, the Klipschs are just better with tubes. Im strongly looking at Epos and Neat as they are supposed to be the cats meow with Exposure and Rock music. I will report back and let you all know how it turns out.
You've been giving purchasing advice on mid to expensive audio equipment for quite some time now.You've already stated you want an upfront and in your face sound. If that's so why would you hold on to the Exposure XV? It's no wonder you can't find satisfaction - though the XV is a very powerful and ballsy sounding affordable amplifier the one thing it isn't is forward and in your face. I always felt it's powerful and driving presentation though relatively "laid back" was well suited for rock and alternative music.
You've already dismissed the Spendors as being overly "polite". Well fine but if you came to that conclusion I very much doubt you'll like the Epos ES14. Don't get me wrong - I bought my first XV after hearing the XV driving the Epos ES14s. Absolutely a great match. But so were the PS Stratus Minis and the Spica TC60s (absolutely room dependent).
But clearly over the last year your comments reveal you as someone who is NOT looking for the kind of sound that this kind of equipment has to offer. Sell your Exposure and try something else, it's obvious it's not what you are looking for and you've been wallowing and spinning in this circles way to long.
Who know's maybe being dizzy is what tickles your fancy?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Also i should mention the system I sold was not the one with the Exposure XV in it, the XV is in my secondary system not the main rig.
So saying that the Exposure XV is the problem and not the sound im after would be a pretty stupid assumption since it wasnt even part of that system...huh?
> > So saying that the Exposure XV is the problem and not the sound im
> > after would be a pretty stupid assumption since it wasnt even part
> > of that system...huh?That's actually kind of funny Frank as it's you that has said several times that he's looking for an upfront and in your face sound. The Exposure XV does not sound that way but some lower priced (at around the same price as the XV) Parasound equipment does.
If you shared my tastes I'd say you've kept the right thing - but based on comments you've made around here you can't blame me for at least mentioning the discrepencies in your comments.
Maybe we just have a differant idea of an in your face sound, as the Exposure has a driving, dynamic in your face sounfd that to me is great for hard rock. Some people consider in your face as bright and harsh sounding, thats not what I mean at all.
Ok first of I meant a newbie to Vinyl not to hi-fi in general. Second I like the sound of the XV it has that ballsy driving sound and thats what I want. Third I have heard the Spendors your were talking about the Sp100 driven by my XV and found them to laid back. But I have heard Epos speakers with the XV and liked them alot. Maybe its just digital im fed up with??
Yea sure I've heard the SP100s and the Epos ES14s with the XV. There's a big difference between the speakers but if you can't hear how "laid back" the XV sounds when using the ES14s don't blame the SP100s for letting you know. I'm pretty sure I told you this before but the XVs definitely got a set back perspective and it doesn't have the juice to do the SP100s big woofer justice.
As much as I like the XV, and consider it the least expensive good audio amplifier I've ever heard, the SP100s are relatively (that means lots better) just as good (at least when they cost $3500) at a couple of price points higher.
The XV didn't have the balls to really drive the Stratus Golds I used to own very well so I bought an Exposure 6/7/18 combo. When I got fed up with the Golds and bought the much more efficient SP100s I actually prefered the XV. But I lucked on to a deal for the DR4 and got a demo 21 - it wasn't until then that I figured out the XV looking at it from cloud 9.You continually talk "polite" when you refer to the sound of the SP100s but compared to the rocker certified Golds they're a white trash whore. The Golds get their reputation from bone crunching bass extension and loudness. BFD they still sound like a loud mouth prude when compared to SP100s that sound as nasty and raunchy as any speaker I've ever heard when it's called for - and listening to live rock music, distorted alternative or garage music it's called for all the time. The SP100s are too good to sound good at loud volumes with bad recordings but at moderate levels with "normal" quality recordings they sound fantastic.
IME the Exposure XV and the Epos ES14s with a Rega Planar 3 and a dynavector 10x4 is better than 90% of all audiophile stereos in the world. But that's just my opinion.
For someone who want's lots of deep bass at real loud volumes and an "upfront in your face" sound none of the equipment I mention is going to satisfy.
Just to clear this up I dont listen to loud volumes or want bone-crushing bass. I actually listen at low to medium volumes ad only on very rare ocasions crank it up.
Hey im not saying the Spendor is a bad speaker, just not my cup of tea. BTW I also owned the PSB Stratus Gold I, I was powering them with a Mccormack DNA-1/TLC and your right the Gold will play extremely loud with tons of bass, but they are a bit un-refined I guess you could say, the bass was a bit loose IMO. But I think your missing my point you keep talking about the Exposure XV, thats not in the system I sold. The Exposure hasnt been used in my main rig for some time. It just didnt have the juice to drive the Neats in the larger room. i woiuld have loved to find a 4DR or even better the XVI.
Don, are you really driving your SP100s with the NAD352? I ask because I have the same amp and am looking for a new pair of speakers. I'm considering Spendors, but I worry that they will show up the NAD's lack of resolution. I guess I also feel funny using an inexpensive amp to drive speakers that cost anywhere from three to six times as much!I'd be curious to hear how they play together. Thanks.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "resolution".I demoed a NAD 352, Manley Stingray, Naim 5 and a Music Hall Mambo (and a couple of others) with the Vandersteen 1Cs that used to be in the bedroom system. All three of the above sounded quite different and though I preferred the "sound of" the Mambo better than any of them at times it was kind of noisy. Eventually I decided on the NAD over the Stingray as I felt any advantage the Stingray may have brought came a too huge a cost. This was all with the Vandersteen 1C speakers.
I came into a windfall and decided to buy another pair of speakers. I was going to sell the SP100s but they were just too much better than the Vandersteens when I tried them in the second system. I've since tried a VTL integrated ($3500) and think it's alot better than the NAD - but I haven't tried any of the others amps demoed with the Vandersteens to see if my previous conclusions still hold.
Some notes - the VTL amp was the only amp that caused me to question the quality of my source components in that second system - but it was also the only amp driving the SP100s as well. The 352 is significantly "better" than the 320BEE which wasn't "good" enough.
I've really enjoyed the bedroom system much more since I replaced the Vandersteen 1Cs with the SP100s. But since I tried the VTL integrated in that system I know I'll never be completely satisfied with the 352.
Main difference between the NAD 352 and the VTL - focus. Top to bottom the VTL sounds more in control presenting music with much greater focus. I don't know if the Vandersteen 1Cs would have allowed me to hear this or not so I need to get the other amps back here for another listen.
Maybe I should have said "refinement" instead of resolution. I'm glad to hear that the NAD and Spendor sound good together. Obviously the NAD isn't the last word in amplification, but when I needed a working amp in a hurry without having a lot of cash on hand, I found to my surprise that it made more compelling music than a number of amps costing twice as much (Creek, Arcam, Sim i-3). Right now new speakers are a priority; if the NAD can handle the Spendors, I can always move to a better amp later when I have a bit more to spend.
Mine's a low volume setup and I've been very impressed with the combination. It's not a synergistic thing (like the Spendors with my Exposure stack or the VTL) rather a decent combination of two relatively characterless fairly easy to partner audio components.Buying a much more expensive difficult to drive or particular sounding pair of speakers might be problematic with the NADs( the VTL too for that matter). Give them a reasonable load and an accurate (as opposed to revealling or ruthless) loudspeaker and the NAD should reward you with good sound.
I'm looking for a new amp only because I can afford it and I know that the SP100s can achieve higher levels of refinement than I'm getting right now. But surely I don't feel slighted or pressured in anyway using the 352.
1) sell your amp - you can do better use the money to hepl buy:2) buy a almarro A205a single ended el84 int amp - $800
3) A music hall mmc 5 TT matched to a denon 103 moving coil - 800
4) hagerman phono box (called bugle ) set to 60 db - 200
5) klipsh horn speakers -buy used - 500
there you gogood thing - can be sold for almost what you paid or evem more in 5 years!
if you have a dealer close enough to audition. Two to three times that I've heard Epos, I've been impressed with their musicality and value as well. The size of that bedroom may determine between floor standing VS smaller stand mounts.As for the tt, check out comments on Technics SL 1200 in Vinyl Asylum. Can be purchased new for $400 and KAB offers many upgrades within your budget. They sell well in Britian so should not be a far-fetched alternative to Rega.
I haven't been at this very long and i am still having fun. But you know what? I could be completely happy with an all-Naim or all-Quad system. These are affordable, reasonably so. I haven't heard all the Rega stuff. Have you ever thought about that?
I have accepted the fact that having a high end audio system is hard and frustrating work. I enjoy listening to the boombox that is set up in the kitchen. However, the big system can be transcendent and there is no ther way to get that experience but to experiment and assemble. The time is worth it to me.
The AR, fairly common on Ebay, was the inspiration for the Linn and many think it's still one of the best ever. Sam Tellig used one for many years. Unlike today's cheapo "audiophile" models, the AR had a SUSPENSION!(Fancy that!) A great suspension in fact. And so it didn't rumble or feed back when you cranked the volume, unlike some of the brands you might be inclined to. 4 Sorbothane pucks doth not a suspension make. Nowadays you have to pay thousands to get a TT with a suspension unless you go mass market. While the older ARs had a somewhat Spartan tonearm, the later ones had a good Linn-manufactured arm, plus a lot of owners, even of ebay offerings, have swapped out the old arm in favor of an audiophile-approved arm from Audio Advisor, Needle Doctor or whomever. (I'm not sure whether those mods decouple the arm from the floating subchassis, which was a merit of the original design.) In any case, if you don't have your heart set on new gear, consider an old AR.
His system sounds good because it is well matched and all the components have a reputation for being musical. The gear is good.
nt
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
The system you liked was in a different room -- it may have been much less pleasing if located in your room.Compare his system with yours using the same headphones (to remove the room and speaker differences from the equation).
Also, your goal should be to enjoy listening to recorded music (the definition of "audiophile") in spite of the system used (except Blose Acoustimess speakers which arte said to cause serious psychological problems).
Any system is good enough for today if you care about the music.
If you care more about the equipment than the music, you must have your head examined immediately.
Perhaps they will find nothing, as when I had my head examined, but do it anyway.
The room his system was in was nearly identical as mine, his house is a few blocks away and are all the same layout. His room was the identical size and shape as mine with a similar amount of furniture. So I dont think it was the room.
I think that you rather underestimate the individual differences from each listening-room!...If you are sceptical, just temporarily relocate your system into ANY other room of similar size IN YOUR EXISTING HOUSE, and then tell us that your system sounds exactly the same as it did in it's previous location!...
I DARE YOU!!...
Bill.
The rooms arent close in size they are identical, exact same houses built by the same builder. The only slight differance is the paint on the walls, his is blue mines whit...:) But I agree the furniture in the room will make a differance. But im hjust saying our rooms are very similar so i doubt its the room thats making the huge differance.
guess you didn't understand what he said, and that's no surprise.1. You're an Audiophile.
2. Most Audiophiles don't claim to have superior hearing over others, (just different experiences)
3. No, it's possible to care and love BOTH equipment AND music at the same time.
4. No, a system that you love, can possibly bring you closer to the music that you love and IMPROVE the EXPERIENCE...
5. Perhaps it's you who needs to have his head examined: to come on to a music equipment website and constantly and sarcastically deride everyone on it who expresses an interest, appreciation, or asks a question related to audio.How can you stand the massive weight, of that jealousy chip on your shoulder??
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
... which is tough to do when tapdancing around the myth that all audio components sound different and Stereophile writers can hear the differences.My reply today at Critics makes it clear that a "golden ear" who reports his blind test results, as JA did ... is probably going to be shooting himself in the foot.
Most audiophiles claim to hear differences among components only when they know the brand/model in use. Isn't that interesting?
Audio equipment is a tool.
An audiophile loves music, not tools.
If you're thinking about the sound quality, then you are evaluating the equipment. Listening to music means you focus on the music and forget about the audio equipment -- it's good enough for today.
My comments were intended to question whether the original poster was mistaking room differences for equipment differences (not so, it now seems) or allowing sound quality concerns to overwhelm his enjoyment of music (no stereo is perfect).
'Having his head examined' refers to self-examination of his attitude about his audio equipment -- he seemed to be very negative.
"Stereophile writers can hear the differences."Wrong! The answer was ANYONE can....
"Audio equipment is a tool."
Wrong! Subjective and idiosyncratic works of art/craft designed to reflect the manufacturers view of "good sound."
"An audiophile loves music, not tools."
Wrong! An audiophile loves both music, and the artisan equipment that they feel brings them closer to the recorded event, and/or best reproduces that recorded event...
OF COURSE: this all is going over YOUR head as you haven't had many experiences to understand
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
Anyone can believe all components sound different.No one can prove it.
Even the editor of a popular audio magazine.
I guess that makes him ... human.
As a StereoEquipmentPhile, you must like to analyze sound quality.
I do this sometimes myself.As an audiophile, I strongly prefer to listen to recorded music.
That's the definition of "audiophile", believe it or not.
And yes, it is "proven" through firm, valid, experimentation, that high end audio components sound different...But since you've never had any experience, or done any testing, you wouldn't know...
Sad...
"The men who own the city make more sense than we do: their actions are clear, their lives are their own"
" high end audio components sound different..."Richard stated that some have a universal belief that all components sound different. Some do, of course, no one doubts it; but that every one of them does is not likely. Yours statement is ambiguous as to quantity, as you could mean "all high end components" or merely "some high end components."
Belief and experience are, it is true, not the same thing. But one can have beliefs about a posteriori experiences (is there any other kind?), to with that the differences one perceived were due to some difference in the equipment (rather than to a difference in oneself).
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Take a look at the Odessey $1500 package (does not include source).
Check out any of the KEF Q series speakers and any non-oversampling DAC you can get your hands on.
Yup, I did the same about 2 yrs ago. Got rid of some "audiophile approved" stuff and went with some "Tried 'n True" brand gear. I've been the most pleased with my system as I have been in the past 10 years.
so speaking of that, when you guys sold everything was it piecemeal or did you find someone to take big portions? I may have to sell all and start over due to financial needs and hate to take out separate ads for every little thing from speakers to ICs. And I hate to "illegally" list them all here out of respect for the inmates!
I sold the speakers and amp together and the cd player seperately.
...for a few reasons. The synergy was lost in my new small apartment, I was back to school, and I needed the money. In addition, the system was large and took over the room, and could not be adjusted to sound its best.It is worth listing separately as people look for particular things. It is not that expensive to do it that way.
All my equipment went to different people. This was over 20 years ago, in the Audiomart days. I now have an even more exotic setup in a dedicated room, but with a family, time is precious. They just don't want to sit and listen to music, so it is an either/or proposition.
I went through the exact same thing about a year ago so I certainly understand what you are going through. I sold my entire system and started from scratch. Except that I ended up buying a more expensive system that what I had before. Go figure. But it worked out great since my system now has a level of musicality (presence, transparency, dynamics) that is far better and far more fun than anything that I have owned before or have heard from most high-end systems.So I sympathize and wish you luck. Personally I would go for a Rega TT but that's just my taste.
Keep us up to date on how everything works out.
(supposedly) is offering to Schumey for the next two years? Life is good!
Yes, I saw what Ferrari was willing to pay to have him back. Unbelievable. But when you are a 7-time world champion and hold just about every record in the sport . . .Kimi is going to end up with a salary like that too. Who knows who will be paying it, McLaren or Ferrari, but he will probably get it.
I also read that Marlboro was willing to foot the bill for both Schumey and Kimi if both were driving for Ferrari. Pretty incredible.
Forgive me for being pedantic, but because I fault a lot of current gear for lacking musicality, I'll add my two cents on this question: Personally, I don't see that presence, transparency and dynamics have a lot to do with musicality. Presence means the illusion of a live performance; transparency means clarity; dynamics means loudness or sudden contrasts of loudness as with cymbal crashes, bass drum whacks, etc. Musicality means that the music "gets over" -- you find yourself remembering the tune, humming it, wanting to hear it even on a crummy system just because you like the melody, harmony, rhythm. Some table radios have it and some expensive rigs don't. Not that I am recommending a table radio -- but there is some very expensive equipment that sounds pallid. British critic Geoffrey Horne used to rag on polypropylene cones, for example -- he said they made Alfred Brendel sound like he was playing a 'plonky village upright'. To my ears, some Bextrene cones are 'rubbery' sounding. And some metal cones sound metallic. This won't come out in frequency response graphs, and it doesn't relate directly to presence, transparency or dynamics (it may enhance dynamics -- that's one reason the manufacturers are into plastic cones.) But to some people it is audible, just like the difference between tubes and transistors.
Peter -Your points are well made and I agree. I put those adjectives out there to maybe better define what I meant. Ultimately none of those characteristics on their own mean much when it comes to communicating the intent or the emotion of the music. As one example, I've owned way too much gear over the years to know that just hearing more detail is going to move me. A better way of describing it I guess would be to say that it is the overall effect or gestault that matters. I just tried to quickly piece together a few of the obvious parts that help make that come together.
My Tivoli desk radio is a whole lot of fun and I've heard some "lesser" systems communicate the emotion of the music much better than some big rigs. Of course it is obvious that they don't have the top or bottom end, etc. but they are getting something right that other systems do not.
I was about ready to throw the towel in completely on this hobby since just about everything that I was hearing left me unmoved. There was "better" sound, in a sound effects kind of way, but I wasn't moved or felt any closer to understanding the composers or performers intent than before. It left me cold. But I was fortunate enough to run across some gear that gave me what I wanted from a system.
To me musicality is just that it is more enoyable to listen to the music. For example ive recently found out that I listen alot more since i was given a hand-me-down turntable and some records then i did with cds. Something about vinyl makes it just more enjoyable and relaxing to listen to, more musical i guess. Hard to describe.
Frank -Yup, that is a good way of describing it. Like I mentioned in the last post, there are times when my Tivoli radio at work is a whole lot more fun than a lot of expensive systems. Hearing better sound is all well and good but if it isn't fun or moving in some way, then why bother?
There is something about vinyl that is a lot more relaxing (we can wave a finger at digital hash I guess). I really noticed it when we were comparing a very, very expensive digital system to a very good TT set-up. I suddenly noticed that my shoulders relaxed when the vinyl was spinning. I wasn't relaxing nearly that much when listening to the digital stuff.
Enjoy the vinyl! A lot of the semi-new to newer stuff that I want to hear just isn't available on vinyl. Oh well.
Yeah that kinda stinks that there isnt more of the newer music available on Vinyl. And its much more of a chore to find Lps than cds. but I agree it just has a more relaxing quality. It is easier to listen to, and my only expereince is with this 30 year old Fisher direct drive TT with an old Pickering cart. I cant wait till i get a decent TT!! Im trying to descide between the Rega 3, project Xpression, rpm-5 or the Music Hall mmf-5 right now. Its a tough descision. And TT are harder to audiotion since thier are alot of variables, one dealer may have one cart on a table and the next may have another, they may not be setuup correctly....etc A cd you just poop it in and press play they are easier to d direct compariosons IMO.
Can buy below used and will be SWEETPre: GFP-750
Amp: GFA-5802
CD: GCD-750
Tuner: Yamaha T-1020
TT: Rega P5
Speakers: Maggies 1.6
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