 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
As an AA lurker for more years than I care to admit, I have finally found cause offer up a post. I have had an epiphany regarding this hobby of ours and what we expect from it.Over the past 3 months I have gone to many, many live music performances in and around Cleveland. I frequent one of the finest jazz clubs in the country 2-3 times per weeks. (The Cleveland Bop Stop is a purpose built club, accoustically designed, interestingly shaped, treated with ASC, etc. The finest sounding jazz venue I have ever been in. Oh yeah, the level of musicianship is absoluteley fantastic as well.) I heard the Cleveland Orchestra perform at their outdoor venue over the summer. I have heard the Cleveland Orchestra open their season in Severance Hall for the past few weeks. I heard the Pittsburgh Symphony last Sunday. Well, I have been listening to a lot of live music lately.
As an audiophile who is thankful and grateful that I am able to pursue this hobby to a pretty high price-point, I have owned many different types of systems over the years. I have had a Theil/Spectral sytem, and Audio Research/Martin Logan sytem, a Cary/Silverline SET system, an Avalon/Spectral system, a Lamm/Kharma system and currently an Avantegarde/Lamm system.
While sitting in Heinz Hall last weekend I came to the realization that NO system I have ever owned, or have ever heard, even remotely approaches the SOUND and FORCE of live music. I mean I always knew that but I guess I didn't want to admit it to myself because of my love for the hobby. And that's really what it boils down to: my love for the hobby of playing with new toys and seeing what changing a cable here or a tube there will do to my system, reading the magazines and internet reviews, etc. I was more interested in the playing the game that us audiophiles do than in the MUSIC itself. I lost sight of the fact that I was interested in music in the first place.
Lets face it, it's impossible for two boxes to reproduce the size, power and detail of a live band or orchestra. No matter how good those speakers are they will never sound like live music. I currently have Avantegard Trio's and the Lamm ML2, the most dynamic system I have heard. However, it doesn't sound like REAL music. It sounds like reproduced music which is played back dynamically. The key word is REPRODUCED. I played a few cuts of some tenor sax and thought it sounded great. I then had my 13 year old nephew come into my listening and play his tenor sax. My system can not even approach the sound of a live instrument and my system is about as real as you can get. Its a joke. All recorded music sounds compressed compared to the real thing. CD, SACD or quality vinyl played back through my Walker turntable...it all sounds unnatural. Better equipment only yields better sounding reproduced music, it does not yield real sounding music.
As of last month I was on the verge of ordering a pair of Kharma Exquisites. Thankfully, I have come to my senses and am about to get off of the audiophile train. Honestly, I get just as much pleasure listening to my friends modest Von Schweikert VR4/BAT VK60 system than I do my own. It's all artificial anyway, so I am now just resigning myself to the fact that spending all kinds of money to try to get the sound of a live band playing in my room is no different than a dog chasing his tail...only much more expensive. I played my system last night and cringed when I look at a slew of $3000 cables laying on the floor. I got sick to my stomach when I added up the cost of what I was listening to. As Romy used to say, its all just "audio porn". How true. Euphonic distortion of my brain!
Anyway, I just read in some audio rag when someone said that instead of spending a huge amount of money on a piece of equipment, he would rather take a vacation to the great concert halls of Europe and listen to the real thing. I couldn't agree more. A $5 cover at the Bop Stop gives me 3 hours of great jazz in a cool building with my wife and friends...I've even become friendly with some of the regular musicians. Can't beat that.
I'm selling my ML2's, my L2, my Trio's, my CD12 and my cables and will put the money in the bank. I'm going to buy a pair of Cain & Cain double horns, a nice pair of used 300B or 45 amps + preamp and spend no more than $1500 on CD player and be happy and content until I need to replace something because its broken. I must confess that my Walker and Lamm phonestage will not go anywhere. If I want to pursue the "hobby" maybe I'll try to build a SET amp or a pair of horns just for the fun of it. It's time to just enjoy the music.
So there you have it. I'm off of the high-end merry-go-round because there is no reason continue this rediculous game. No more worry about a little extra midbass warmth or a treble that was just a bit too bright. Give me a break! I've heard the best systems money can buy in my home, in stores and in other peoples homes. The bottom line is that not one of them sounds like real music...and sorry, neither does yours. See you at the symphony where for $100 I can get a soundstage that extends 50 feet behind, above and to the side of the orchestra. My six-figure systems soundstage extends to the back wall and to the sides of my room...you do the math.
-Free at last!
Follow Ups:
Geez - you sound like you've had some kind of epiphany or something.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Great thought provoking thread.I may not totally agree with all you said but much is true.Went to a Dimeola concert and came home and fired up the system and no it wasn't the same but hey it wasn't as far off as i would have thought.Quite frankly isn't it about just sitting down and enjoying the music of your favorite artists with a system that we can afford to get us somewhat close?Also it is a hobby and as any hobby people always try to aspire to get what they think is the best,whatever that may be.Regards Bob
mail2ed@swbell.net
I subscribe to the San Francisco Opera, and I also have a decent sized collection of opera recordings. And I've never expected the recordings to sound live. Some of them do do a good job of capturing hall ambience, but none of them sound exactly like the real thing. I never expected them to. I listen to them because I love the music, not because I want to transform my apartment into an opera house.I recently upgraded from low-fi to mid-fi equipment, and at one of the high-end audio shops I went to, I had a discussion about this very thing with one of the guys who worked there. We were in total agreement. We both thought that folks who like classical and opera would be better off spending money on live performance tickets and subscriptions than on climbing to the pinnacle of the high-end audio equipment ladder. Because electronic audio equipment will never perfectly recreate live performance. It just isn't possible.
Jeffery
...or something like that.This topic has been beaten to death.
Straw Man: the gear-head audiophile who doen't really care about music and just plays "1812 Overature" or "Dark Side" over and over while tweaking his system. (I'm never met any types, and if they exist, well, let them have their fun. Who cares?)
Beating the Dead Horse: live music is better than recorded music.
Yeah, so what? I go to live music a couple of times a month and yes it's the best thing there is. In fact, I'm going to see Randy Weston tonight...I've been looking forward to it all week.
But what's wrong with recorded music? Musicians spent a lot of time and artistic effort to make recorded music. It's their statement, and I'll listen to it. If I'm going to listen to recorded music, then I might as well make the most of it by putting together a system that is within my budget. Tonight's the first time I will have seen Randy Weston, and it may well be the last, but I've got around 10 of his LPs that I can play any time I want, as many times as I want.
Also, as Dave Pogue said, I like to listen to music performed by people who are dead. What would you have me do? All I have are recordings.
Finally, I find it funny that your solution to your dilemma it to get off the high-cost audiophile merry-go-round and get by with a "budget" system that only costs something like $40,000. [$25K TT plus $2K (?) speakers plus $1.5K CD + $2K (?) amp+preamp + $5K Lamm phonostage + ???]. Your phono stage costs more than I paid for my entire system yet I seem to get more out of my system than you do. Maybe my expectations are lower. I don't expect my system to sound like live music, I just enjoy it for what it is.
You sound like some guy saying, "Heck, I don't need this Ferrari, it's overpriced and ostentatious. I think I'll just drive a Porsche 911."
"Maybe my expectations are lower. I don't expect my system to sound like live music, I just enjoy it for what it is"
That's what I'm going to do. The price point of diminishing returnsstarts sooner than I thought. Probably at $5k retail per component, actually, probably less. But that's where I end it from now on. I realize that's still alot cash but it's a hell of a lot less than what I have invested now. It's all relative, I guess.My point is that if our goal is to create a live performance in our homes we are wasting our time and money...which is what I did. It doesn't take $100K, $10K, or even $5K to enjoy your system. If you get pleasure from it every time you sit down to listen, don't change it. It's not worth itinost instances. How many times have we replced a component only to suffer buyers remorse and long for the sound we had before we upgraded?
As for the Walker, I'm a viynl junkie and just love that thing. Not just the job it does, but simply playing with it. There's something about swaping carts, adjusting arms, cleaning records, etc. that captivates me. Stupid, I know, but I do love it. That's one piece of gear that I don't regret buying and probably never will.
With the Ferrari, one doesn't get rid of a Ferrari because its overpriced an ostentatious, one gets rid of it because of the mandatory 15K mile belt job in which the engine must be removed and costs $5000. One also gets rid of a Ferrari because if it gets scratched or dinged it costs a fortune to repair. One gets rid of a Ferrari because they cost over $1 per mile to drive. One gets rid of a Ferrari because you panic every time you hear a stone hit the car while driving down the highway. Drawing a comparison between hi-fi and a Ferrari is not valid. With a car like that you get a visceral thrill from operating it. You get to FEEL the performance of a legendary machine. It's just not the same. If anyone is in the market for one I have a 95 355 Berlinetta and a 91 512TR I'd be more than willing to part with. Those new little Lotus' with the 1.8L Toyota engine look quite fun?
\
If throwing money at your audio problems doesn't result in sonic perfection, you're not trying hard enough: Apply more cash until it does. Repeat as needed.
The truth of the matter is that the microphones used to produce our stereo recordings by and large do not perceive sound as our ears do, and these recordings are really more of an "artistic rendition" of a real event, and you must not confuse them with pure, unadultered reality distilled into a 5.25" optical disk. If, for instance, you're expecting Dusty Springfield to sound like she's on the same stage as the band as she sings "The Look Of Love", something is very wrong with the playback gear because my ears tell me she was singing in a different room altogether, and quite close to a microphone: There should be nothing whatsoever "lifelike" about the soundstaging of this cut. This does not make the recording BAD: It's just a reflection of the recording engineer's art, given the limitations of his gear and studio space and his or her personal tastes. The real goal of home hifi though speakers then, is to be able to enjoy the colors, textures, intonations and pacing of the recorded music, much like an art lover can enjoy a great painting.
The closest thing you are going to get to simulating a real live space is via BINAURAL recordings and playback through headphones, and for $3K, you should be able to get a stunningly good headphone amp and headphones! But how odd that that this technology gets so little mention from those claiming to seek absolute truths in their audio.
I'll settle for good. Your post should be required reading.
I am approching the same conclusion as you. My story...I recently bought a house. Do not have the "audio" space setup yet. Plan was to put the TV upstairs in the living room and have the "real system" in the basement with my computer and guitars. In the meantime I took the speakers that used to be on my computer (older B&W 600i bookshelfs) an old set of polk monitors for rears a Vance titanic sub and mated them to a Yamaha HT reciever that was on sale for $199, a Pioneer universal DVD player (the $170 one) and set them up in the liveing room with the TV. I find that I am enjoying music much more lately with out worrying about all the audiophile crap. So much so that I am thinking of offing the "real" system. The real system does sound better, don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't seem to matter at all anymore. Another audiophile "sin" is that I am really digging Pro Logic II on many recordings now also. I am feeling, like you, that the expense and obsession is not worth it anymore. After all no matter how much you spend it doesn't sound like live music.
My "real" system for refrence...
B&W Matrix 803sII
Pass Aleph 3
Audio Electronics AE-1 (similar to Cary SLP-98)
Audio Electronics PH-1
Meridian 506
NAD 533
Enjoying home audio and attending live venues are parallel activities that cannot compete with each other. I've never understood the concept of the "Absolute Sound" as it is impossible to fully recreate the live event at home. We all apply our resources to both of these varying in proportion to what we appreciate at any time in life. I agree that it is very easy to get carried away with home audio expenditures at the expense of appreciating the music.
I thought you were quitting!!!
Well, I agree with you about it never sounding real but this could be as much the fault of the recordings as anything else. When you said that they all sounded compressed its because nearly all of them ARE compressed at least a little bit. I have made recordings of my girlfriend with NO compression and while they don't sound entirely real on my admittedly much less expensive system (I think my Betas can come close to matching the Trios on realism though) it comes damn close and my girlfriend uses it as a tool for her work. I agree that you should get off the merry-go-round though, especially with the kind of money you have been spending. I have paid a relatively modest price and am quite happy now with what I am listening through. If I want live I listen to my girlfriends concerts or go to the two or three local jazz clubs that are near where I live. But I can't hear Sonny or Miles that way so this is reserved for home.
Let's get real.Example: Once upon a time the moniker "greatest rock 'n roll band in the world" was used by the Rolling Stones. (Listen to the intro to the opening cut on "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out"- Mick himself says so...) I'm not saying I ever agreed, but there wasn't anyone any better when they were young, relatively unburnt, AND had Mick Taylor on gits. But that was 30+ YEARS ago! You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to pay to see and hear that tired old bunch now. Correction: I'd rather take the bullet in the coconut.
The live recordings in my collection have captured and preserved creative efforts that can ONLY be experienced as reproductions of the events themselves. The "way back machine" isn't in production yet.
Some of the musicians I've enjoyed over the years have aged well, and are still well worth hearing live. Many haven't, likely reflecting the reality that the creative spark and drive in artists is hard to sustain at a consistently high level. And the dead ones are, well, dead.
Regardless, I'll take an evening of great performances on my rig at home over a mediocre concert any time.
I've spent far more on attending live performances than I have on my system. Too bad I can't get Pink Floyd to set the Berlin wall back up so I can go there and listen to a live performance of The Wall. I can't find anyplace booking Robert Johnson or Pablo Casals either. Nearfield listening will have to suffice. Poor me.
Wow. I've leaved in Cleveland all of my life (25 years) and I've never heard of the Bob Stop. I guess I need to get out more LOL! I'll check it out sometime. Thanks for the tip.
I agree with most of what the posters have said/ some audio designers want a listener to be able to close his eyes and be transported to the musical experience -you are there- , others seek to create the sense that the musical experience has been brought to you. all of it is expectation. simply enjoying some things you love warts and all isn't easy, but once you get past all the Mid range, bloom, stuff and just enjoy the experience you're all set. It is after all about pleasure and fun, private and shared. Norm
I really don’t have the time to go anywhere where good music is played as those places are 45 minutes, $3 bridge toll, and $5+ of gasoline away. Yes there are some local places, but I don’t care to see most of those who play there. Also, if there is someone worth seeing/hearing, it's likely going to be on a week night with a late ending and that just doesn't work well for me. The music I like most does not tend to sound good live (I usually hate live albums) and I see the live venue more as a social thing - getting together with others having fun celebrating. I do make it a point to go see my favorite band when they are in town, but again, it's a social thing - my way of saying thanks for doing what you do and giving me something to enjoy. Volume is usually too loud and the sound is only ok. My "goal" is NOT to recreate the live sound in my home but to best present what is on pre-recorded media.Would you suggest that golfer give up his clubs and just go watch tournaments? A photographer give up his expensive gear and go to museums? I’d hope not, so no need to damn us audiophiles with a “I’ve seen the light and feel compelled to lead you to it” kind of post. No offence intended to those who honestly like live music AND enjoy your stereos at home. If you only like the live sound like Mr. Revelation, then you don't really belong here do you?
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
Get rid of the Avantgardes and all will be right with the world again. :)
This afternoon I've been listening to a Benny Goodman quartet on 78s recorded in the l930s, a Peter Maag late-50s performance of the Mendelssohn 3rd on a London R-R-tape, a Dave Brubeck LP from the 60s, and CDs/SACDs by Jim Hall, J.J. Cale, Wayne Horwitz, and Johnny Hodges. All in the comfort of my home, in reasonable fidelity (or better) that may seldom remind me of the real thing but certainly cannot be duplicated live. I listen to exactly what I want, when I want to. And I think there's a lot to be said for that :-)
But I have to listen at home coz they ain't available.
Was a GREAT show- in the ballroom of the Hilton in D.C. Mind Altering.
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
While I agree that recordings, and therefore hi-fi, can't match live music, everybody has a threshold below which they won't enjoy recorded music to the fullest either. If that point is $1000 for a system then great, if that point is $100,000 for a system then great. I've never set out to create live music at home, it's not possible in my experience. What I have set out to do is create an enjoyable listening experience each time I put a cd into the player, and I've essentially achieved that goal.I think a trap that you may fall into is that you are taking a whole difference set of expectations with you when you listen to your friends system (which is still pretty damn fine!) than when you listen to your own. It may be that you can downsize and happily enjoy your music, or it may be that you downsize and find that you're no longer enjoying you listening experience as much. (Admittedly you are a long way over the point where diminishing returns start to really bite hard.) Sure a little Toyota will get you from A to B just as well as a 5 series BMW but you won't be as keen to just go and enjoy the drive.
As for me, I've very happy with what I have but if I won a lot of money tomorrow I'd be buying some big arse gear as quick as possible for the simple pleasure of being able to enjoy music in the comfort of my own home, and hey, the simple pleasures are often the best.
Cheers,
Craig.
Silly logic.People don't buy Plasma TVs because they think it will mimick the live experience of being at a football game. It simply enhances their visual experience in the comfort and convenience of their home.
Same is true for audio equipment. If you can afford to leave your house every night and attend concerts around the world regularly - go for it. If not, maximizing your home experience is what audiophilia is all about. BTW, live events are great, but what if you feel like listening to a few different artists in one night.
A recording may not give you the same emotional experience as a live event, but, if your equipment isn't giving you any emotional satisfaction listening to recording, then you bought the wrong equipment - no matter how expensive.
I guarantee when you think about it, you'll be back and spending more than ever.
Fun it’s what it’s all about...as long as you don’t let it go too much over you head, that is the key. Know your budget limits. I tried to get away from this hobby some time ago much as you have decided to do or will do now. But I came back (I can’t help it, I love this s**t), there is always that itch for tinkering around with new toys. I could be wrong, but chances are you’ll be back fooling around with this stuff too at some point. Just my opinion.
.
Gnag,Look.... I can agree with this guy. Many times I talk to customers who spent way too much money on reviewed and suggested equimpment and didn't get what they paid out of it.
To Mr. Revelator... I suggest you talk to Don Better. A great Jazz Guitarist and Audio guy he is in Shaker Heights has the Cain & Cain and has a great ear for putting together something really good.
donbetter@hotmail.com
(216) 375-1393The great thing about a musician is they know that this stuff is suppose to sound like. So if there is a room issue or whatever then he can hear it.
Good Luck!
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
"See you at the symphony where for $100 I can get a soundstage that extends 50 feet behind, above and to the side of the orchestra. My six-figure systems soundstage extends to the back wall and to the sides of my room...you do the math."
You get that symphony for a hour or two at best, then all you have is memories.As for soundstage, the best systems can expand it to well beyond the rear and side walls - to the point that they disappear - so despite the cost and quality of your components I'm curious as to why you don't get a similar experience.
Obviously I'd agree that no system can ever compare with live because by definition one is the original and all else is hopelessly lossy (hopelossy?) reproduction, but once again I'd suggest that the best systems create a very convincing illusion of live which at it's best is able to convey the expression, emotion and experience of music.
Just this week I've been constantly playing Damien Rice's recent 'O' CD for instance, the various tracks ranging from the uplifting, the humourous, the bitter, the contrary, the hopeful - and I was taken on this ride because my system was able to resolve and differentiate between the singer's moods, every emphasised word, weary draw of breath and other subtle aural clues that draw the listener in to the performance.
In an example such as this I doubt that even the live renditions of the same tracks would elicit a similar response as the 'clues' would be missed and many artists are able to either perform to an audience OR sing to the best of their ability, not both; those that can do the two to the same standard are very rare in my experience.
Ironically it is your constant referencing of your system's sound to live sound which is causing you to 'stray' from the path of audiophilia, and the next time you're enjoying listening to tenor Sax through your system, keep the 13 year old nephew out of the house.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
In the end all we have are memories (but a night in Vienna Opera House is MUCH more memorable than the 1000th playing of a Beethoven Sonata at home) and then we die. Sad but true.
BH.
After a 20+ year span as an on-again-off-again audiophile, I can appreciate your position. I've probably been where you are now 3 or 4 times, but at one point several years ago I finally grasped that, no matter how hard I try, nor how much I spend, I will never duplicate, nor even come close to, the in-person performance. But-and this is a big BUT-with that realization came an understanding that a home system has never been intended (All the hype aside!) as a substitute for the real thing. Viewed in this way a system can quite satisfactorily complement and/or supplement your need for music between concerts. The question then becomes how much one decides to spend and the course you've apparently chosen, i.e., downsizing, is one possible avenue.I'd be interested to know where you are on this a year from now.
It seems it is like you transferred your high end system to another room, a live room. Hopefully for your sake, you won't have the same dissatisfaction with live music as you do with your current system. What happens when you have to sit in an acoustically challenged seat at a concert? What if you hear a bad performance? What if you expect the best performance all the time, and now they are just not up to snuff? Maybe your home system doesn't allow you to FEEL the music, because you think too much about it and trying to be the boss and control it. When its someone else's rig or concert, you have no power to control or change it. Maybe it is time to relax at home and let go, get out of the drivers seat.
I'm still sticking with this hobby...it's fun if not taken too seriously.
Regards, Jerry O.
I thought twice about giving you a hard time since it was your first post here, but then I thought it would be unfair to give you special treatment. Your post is very good, by the way, but then you've had years to get it just right. You're probably on revision #489 by now, while I post first drafts with no editing and no speelcheckking because I think the "Preview Message" button is for weenies.To obtain a high quality reproduction of music in your listening room, you must have a high quality recording, whether CD or vinyl, and you must have high quality listening room acoustics.
First, no amount of money spent on components, even the very important speakers, will make a mediocre sounding CD played in a relatively small room with uncontrolled standing waves, for example, room sound realistic.
Second, do you assume your listening room would produce a wonderful sound quality with a live band playing there?
- Many people criticize their system, when in fact, a live band would not sound particularly good in their own room.In general, our relatively small listening rooms with low ceilings can not sound much like a large nightclub or auditorium ... unless the listener is surrounded by speakers. Only surround sound has the potential to reproduce another venue that does not sound like your own room's acoustics -- two speakers can't reproduce the acoustics of another venue in your room.
Third, the visual input of people making music ... makes the music seem more realistic -- back in the 1960's at many hi-fi shows
some speaker companies had string quartets pretending to play their instruments while a tape recording was actually playing through the speakers. People were stunned by how good the speakers sounded when tricked into believing real musicians were playing.In summary, starting with a good recording and good speakers and a good listening room ... it still take's a minimum of five channels and five speakers to create a decent reproduction of what you would hear in a night club or auditorium. You can ask old J. Gordon Holt -- he knows that!
Two-channel stereo is an old dinosaur on it's way out but we just don't realize it yet.
Hi Richard> > Many people criticize their system, when in fact, a live band would not sound particularly good in their own room. < <
Yes, I agree with you there. I have heard a relatively modest system produce a soundstage that went FAR beyond the walls of the room. The room was simply not there. I think this is one area where too little attention is focussed.> > it still take's a minimum of five channels and five speakers to create a decent reproduction of what you would hear in a night club or auditorium... Two-channel stereo is an old dinosaur on it's way out but we just don't realize it yet. < <
Can't disagree more. I think that a good two-channel system will still provide the best sound, IF the recording is done properly (NO MULTI-MIKING!!), and if it is set-up properly.Just my $0.02, YMMV :-)
Enjoy,
Deon
__________________________________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take,
but by the moments that take our breath away.
- Author unknown
BH.
Hearing live music is very important, no getting around that. I attend performances and seek to recreate much of the experience in my home and those of my customers. A good home audio system allows you to listen to what you want, when you want, in the comfort of your home, with enough realism at times to let you suspend belief that you are listening to a stereo system.
BH.
a
I have never expected my audio setup to perform like live music. I expect it to give me a musically satisfying experience on demand. That is something I cannot expect to get from a live performance. Time and distance are the negative factors here. I also cannot go see Frank Sinatra and other great performers who have passed on in a live performance. A musically satisfying system at home, based on realistic expectations, is what I'm after.I'm originally from Willoughby Hills, Ohio; an eastern suburb of Cleveland.
Hear, hear. I agree with both of you, and Dad makes an excellent point. While I don't expect my system to sound like the event is happening in my room, I wish to enjoy the musical experience and get more out of the performance than if it were played on a boombox, for example.I love live shows, too. The experience of being at a performance with other people, friends and so on is exhilarating.
- Egil
You make some great points. I would follow the route you are taking, but for one thing: Bill Evans, Coltrane, Mozart, et al don't play in my town - even Dave Douglas doesn't. And I don't get as much enjoyment out of listening to others' systems as I do mine. There's even a special joy in sitting with a great book and a glass of wine while I listen. I'm going to more and more live music all the time, though. You're right - nothing beats it if it's properly presented.
Fair enough. My point is that we as audiophiles (not all of us, of course) are trying to create a system that makes those Coltrane and Mozart recordings sound like the band is live in our room. No matter how much we try or how much money we throw at the objective it will NEVER happen. The way I look at things now is that if someone gets pleasure from his system he should just continue to enjoy it and not worry about the neverending uprgrade path.Please don't think of this statement as being arrogant or pretentious, its not meant to be, but ultimately a good number of audiophiles, if possible over the course of time, would like to eventually arrive at a system the caliber of mine. Maybe not the same components, but high priced "exotic" gear. Well, I'm there and I'm telling you from my experience that you will never be satisfied with the sound of it. The dollar-to-improvement ratio is rediculous. It just ain't worth it. Each piece of equipment has shortcomings when compared to live music. Put 4, 5 or 6 components together, no matter what the quality, and what do you think you have? Two wrongs don't make a right.
The quest for live music in our rooms is futile. Find a system that you can relax with and end it there. Like you say, get a glass of wine and chill out and look at your system for what it is. I wish I did that many thousands of dollars ago. Believe me, the upgrade path is nothing more than a long walk off of a short pier. I'm not saying to give up the hobby, not at all, rather just realize that no matter what you do you will not have Miles Davis playing in your listening room.
I guess I just feel stupid for spending countless, time, effort and money searching for something that doesn't even exist. I'm only trying to save everyone some cash and stress. Just my thoughts.
If recorded music can never sound like the real thing (a point with which I firmly agree), why don't you just get a boombox? I assume it's because you still want a certain degree of fidelity in your system. So really we are talking about a matter of degrees...I suspect that the real problems are that (1) you spent more money than you were comfortable spending, and/or (2) you got too involved with listening to the equipment, instead of the music.
Whatever the true cause(s), I hope you find the peace that has alluded you.
Regards,
Larry
Perhaps the answer lies in making the distinction between recreating a live performance in your living room, and simply creating an illusion that you, as an audio hobbyist, find adequate to allow you to forget the equipment and become absorbed in the performance. When you refer to live performances, you must be referring to live acoustic, because I've heard plenty of live jazz bands that used "pro-audio" equipment, (Peavey, Bose, etc.), that sounded far worse in many ways than my home system. When I heard George Winston live, I heard an incredibly irritating thumping that I thought must be a very poorly set up sound reinforcement system, but it turned out he was banging his heel on the stage as he played, and the sound was resonating through the auditorium. On the other hand, I was privileged the other day to hear a young virtuoso (19) play the Canon in D Minor on a piano carelessly pushed to the side of a large auditorium. There was no stage, and it ranks as one of the best musical experiences I ever had.In any event, it seems that the pursuit of audio nirvana is little different than the quest for contentment in any other area of life. You can choose to place your focus on what you have not, and what your system doesn't do, or you can marvel at the illusion it's capable of creating. "Like you say, get a glass of wine and chill out and look at your system for what it is." Good advice, but I'd change "look at" to "enjoy". Many of us remember listening to music via transistor radios and enjoying it. Compared to that, even a very modest system by today's standards is a marvel, and as John pointed out, Mozart isn't likely to drop in for a jam session.
Be well,
Todd
It just sounds like downsizing to me. You will still have a system that costs more than most and I suspect you'll be back. It's the curse of listening to the gear more than the music.
Thanks for sharing. In the back of my mind, I've always felt that if I'm not carefull, things could get out of hand. I've found myself thinking about an upgrade of speakers, a change of amps...something, ..anything???Each time, however I would settle down and realize that what I've got now is good enough. Mainly in agreement with your observations, that nothing will ever realy be the real thing, so why go chasing illusions?
The obvious explanation is that we could not possibly bring live music into our listening rooms on a regular basis, so we seek to duplicate this to the best of our abilites.
But as you state, it can become a self fueled, consumptive hobby that can have no real basis in practicality or comon sense. However, these are personal decisions, and left to the individual to establish when that line has been crossed. So where I would never(?) pay $1000 for an interconnect, I have paid $200 for such, and some would think it too late and that I've already gone over to the Dark Side.
A reasonable question to ask is: can I truely live with the system I have now, or must I change it to achieve satisfaction. And what specifiacally does this change entail. Does the change require new equipment, or a better understanding of how to utilize what I currently have. What real improvment will I actually hear when I make this change. Is it really real, or "suggested". Do I have an out if it turns out not to be a real improvment?
Just more reason to both listen, and buy, with our own ears, and not someone elses.
slope
BH.
I don't disagree with your comments on live music, but for me, the whole thing is also a hobby. While perhaps I'm trying to achieve something (a certain reproduction of recorded music), the journey is half the fun. It is also a lot more fun than collecting stamps.
You're right on the money when you say that you are trying to achieve a level of reproduced music. You're way ahead of the game. The problem starts when we try to create a live concert in our rooms by continuing to spend and spend. It never ends. I guess if you can keep the hobby in check and set a realistic goal as to what your want your system to accomplish there is no problem. Enjoy
This is a hobby. We are here for music AND fun.What's the point of catching a fish and then throw it right back into the water ? To some that's insane but to others this is fishing=fun.
Besides, no everyone has the luxury to go to a live show EVERYDAY, but we can listen to our 'over priced' gig EVERYDAY after work, to relax, to enjoy with family, etc. Plus debating with fellow audiophiles about 'mid bass', 'treble warmth' is fun just like throwing fish back to the water.
Abe
Nice one, Abe.I like the analogy. We all have our vices, and I suppose this is mine. : )
There is also the cost of TIME to go to shows- even without considering the cover/ticket price. I live 1/2 hour drive from Seattle, so when there is a good show in town on a weekend, I'll go (or if it's a GREAT show, I'll deal with staying up past my bedtime and drag myself to work the next day)- but there is the time spent to get there, get parking, get a good space in the club, etc.
It's usually well worth it, of course, but time is a very exhaustable resource, unfortunately. : )
- Egil
I get your point, but by the time I pay for expensive tickets, look for parking, and maybe have to sit/ stand somewhere that is not desireable and poeple around me are talking thru the show, -- I often wish I was home listening to LP's and CD's of the band with a good bottle of wine or a Jim Beam and coke!
this hobby is really a big game. I guess in my view, I feel sad for the folk that base their audio system on the amount of money they have spent on it. To me that is buying into the "month by month" marketing of the audio mags and the industry. I mean, CD sound is at its limits, yet we still see the same old "upgrades" happening on an annual basis. It stikes me as very funny where an audio mag writer talks about revisiting a piece of "old" equipment, say 10 + and gets "surprised" by how good it sounds. There will always be those that have to have the latest and greatest but there really is very few truly latest and greatest products. They may sound "different" but really and truly "better"? That is subjective anyway. For the last 3 years I jumped on the band wagon and tried the new and improved but I am now off the BW and am looking for deals on used stuff that others paid full price for, got their fix and are now selling for the latest fix. Great sound can be found pretty easily, its not worth it, to me, to bother to try and get the next 3% "better" for the $ needed to do so. Still let those that need to try and find "live sound" pursue it, it keeps the whole industry going and allows peoople like me to pick up great deals. I mean, trying to get a system sounding like live sound is a great pursuit but I hear very little "live" music that is worth listening to. Anything amplified or processed is already distorted from truly "real" sound so why bother? Now you are on the 12 step to recovery, enjoy the rest of your life. And please let those that want to continue to pursue their reality to do so. This is a hobby and although expensive, does not really hurt anyone.
We are have a get together tomorrow in Cleveland with about 7 of us poor souls. We call our "meetings" Ears & Beers. Lot's of fun listening to good music and shooting the audio related BS. Good beers for those that tilt 'em. Plenty of food too.I have a fully horn loaded (16hz to 35K) that you should listen to. It does the live thing REALLY well. Might be surprised on how it compares to the Trios.
I need to get up to the Bop Shop! Never been there...
Email me if you are interested in attending our Ears & Beers meetiings.
Cheers,
Magnetar
BH.
I think many of us go thru this and come to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, many do not have your access to live performances. When I came to the cross road 7-8 years ago I decided to focus on developing my knowledge (and collection) of jazz and classical recorded music. I don't regret it for a second. In fact my main system is down for repairs now and I'm listening to my music thru a modest system, a Cal Alpha/Delta, EAR pre, and Muse 100 amp, same speakers, and I just love it. Even though I know where all the deficiencies are I no longer care so I don't hear them. For me, it really has become all about the music. Welcome to the club!
Sadly, I couldn't agree with you more, Revelation Man. It's been my gospel for many years that the best audio system can only begin to approach the live experience. To me, audio systems always sound like the performance is on the other side of at least a couple of closed doors, as compared to, as you put it, the sound and force of the real thing. The sound of a crashing cymbal or the bleating of a tenor sax, as reproduced in the home, pales compared to the real thing.On the other hand, some of the sparer acoustic genres can sound pretty good if the system is not pushed beyond realistic levels; o.k., ALMOST pretty good.
All that said, I'm not about to can the whole deal, as it's just too much fun discovering some new source to spin and enjoy!
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
