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How many of you have a tube preamp used with a ss amp? How much
of that 'tube' sound comes out of this combination? Seems
like this would be a way to warm up a cold cd player and yet
have the power and tight base of the ss... What are the drawbacks?
Thanks,
Jim
a tubed preamp with a hybrid amp (a tubed input stage with SS output), like the BlueCircles?
Jim,
Been there, done that... Now I'm going the other way 'round the circle...
For over 15 years I used a trusty old CJ tube preamp with a home built solid-state push-pull MOSFET power amp. This was a great combo and I spent many hours enjoying it. Yes, it also helped to ease the pain of those early days of harsh CD.
More recently, I replaced the old CJ preamp with a Classe solid-state preamp. My main motivation for the upgrade was simply to have a remote controlled preamp that was also capable of enjoyable sound. With my current modern CD equipment there was no noticeable increase in harshness, or any sonic degradation whatsoever. On the contrary, the Classe was much quieter and had much lower overall background noise, especially in its phono section. The overall tonality of the two preamps was surprisingly similar, with the solid-state preamp sounding just as "tubey" as the tube preamp.
Since then I decided to bi-amp and I built a second amplifier, and this time it was a push-pull 6550C tube amp (since I am a long-time vacuum tube lover). I now have the push-pull MOSFET power amp on the woofers and the push-pull 6550Cs power amp on the tweeters. The current sound is the best it's ever been, and is really enjoyable.
In summary, there is not as much of an advantage to doing this today with modern medium priced high end equipment, as there was just a few years ago. However, this advantage still exists today with lower priced equipment. At this more competitive lower price point it is still easier to build good sounding tube circuits, plus tube availability is actually on the rise. At the top of the high end it really doesn't matter, since there are plenty of good examples of both. It all comes down to price vs. performance, and in my case a little nostalgia too (plus I like to listen to power amps that I've actually built with my own hands).
Kind Regards, Chris
I've been doing just that very successfully for a number of years. Some combinations work well others don't - it is simply a matter of preference.
There are no drawbacks if you do a good job of matching your system components. There will be strengths and weaknesses to any system - all tube, all ss, or a hybrid tube/ss. Listen and decide for yourself if this is the route for you to go. Good Luck.
I am using a BAT VK5i with a SS Llano 200-S amp. The BAT is very transparent. What I noticed when I added the BAT was "air". It created more dimension. There is more black space between instruments. The pre-amp did not color the sound at all.. It is less metalic sounding and more natural..
mike
Mikem,
I have just started an audio-only setup. I have the same HT setup that you have (ATI1505/9000ES) with different speakers (CDM1SEs). I saw a set of demo Magnepan MG12s for $760 and made the decision to make a better-sounding system for music, though my HT is pretty good. I would like to go with a tube preamp/SS amp but start off by not spending a fortune. Do you think that the ATI1502 would match a tube preamp very well?
Thanks,
Hoosier
I second Rod M's post.
The AVA Super Pas 3 is a warm sounding, traditional type of tube preamp, however, it does not have the greatest resolution. I listened to the AVA and an Adcom 535 for years until my recent upgrade fever. It pretty much did what you say. Since I've tried several components in the last 3 years or so, I've started leaning towards a tube amp and ss preamp. I find that a transparent preamp really lets the amp character show through. Although there are a couple of ss amps I like, I keep going back to a tube amp.
Thanks for your comment. Actually, I'm thinking about auditioning
the AVA Super Pas 4i (in a Dyna chassis), combined with the AVA
Delta series 120 Watt amp (I returned the AVA integrated as
it had a hum that couldn't be solved-Frank claims it is a typical
hum due to the power inside such a small chassis). This Super Pas 4
wouldn't happen to be your old one, would it?
Jim
No its not mine. I built mine out of a kit and a trashed out Dynaco Pas3. I still have it and its about 10 years old. I should have mentioned that last fact as I can't vouch for the sound of current production.I also can't vouch for factory construction quality since mine was a couple of bags of parts when I got it. The Super Pas 3 is all tube. Is the 4i? I think Ava has a hybrid pre and an all tube pre.
Regarding AVA, I will say that I had never built a kit before and the instructions/photos/schematics were good enough to walk me through.
IMHO the Sound Valves is more neutral sounding while still sounding like a tube pre. As I said below, its bass is a little light and its not as lush as the AVA. Construction quality is ok, but definitely not c-j quality. Good luck.
Hi,
The 4i is a hybrid, albeit different than the Fat Valve tube hybrid (which
appears to be the top of his line of preamps). Basically, it seems
the tube sound is the same as the 3i, but since he uses ss for the
current amplification, it supposedly has more base extension and
more extensive highs, as well as less distortion. Actually, from
his web page, it is quite difficult trying to figure out the
differences between the 4i and the fat valve preamps.
Since the integrated didn't work out, he's giving me these two used
units to try out as an even exchange...
Cheers,
Jim
I am about to go down this very road myself. Over weekend, I auditioned
a Rogue 66 preamp in my system, and it made a *huge* difference.
Gone was a lot of the glare and screechiness (?) that I have been
experiencing with my Bryston BP25 preamp. I am going to audition
other tubed preamps and will report my impressions as I go along.
Rest of my system is: Bryston 3BST amp, Rega Planet CD, Magnepan
1.4 speakers. The Rogue really warmed things up!
> > glare and screechiness (?) that I have been
experiencing with my Bryston BP25 preamp. < <
Well that's interesting. It just goes to show how system/room/personal taste dependent this all is. I used a Bryston B60 integrated as a preamp for a while and found it very smooth, very clear, transparent and very slight;ly lacking in dynamics. At the same time I had a c-j PV12 and found it to have excellent dynamics, better bass impact than any pre I've had, and to be harsh and irritating over time, in the midrange. Pretty much the opposite of what I expected.
I really liked the Bryston pre a lot. Other components were Odyssey Stratos/Marantz8B/c-j MV75/Adcom 535/Scott208 amps, ProAc Response 2s and NHT SupeOne speakers, Naim cd3 and Philips cdr870/MSB Link DAC as sources. The interesting thing was that my impressions of the preamps remained consistent regardless of the associated components.
Also used a Sound Valves VTP-101 pre. The SV is very good for the money, but a little light in the bass. If it had the bass impact of the c-j I'd probably quit looking at preamps.
MikeK,
> > Gone was a lot of the glare and screechiness (?) that I have been
> > experiencing with my Bryston BP25 preamp.
I got the implications that the Rogue 66 is a really "tubey"/warm sounding preamp. Is this true? Or is it like one of those first-generation BATs where it's pretty transparent and uncolored?
Could you give more details? Was the glare and screechiness specifically from the highs? How are the lows? How tight are the lows?
I found the Rogue 66 to have tight bass, uncolored and quite musical
mids, and highs that are just a bit - but only a small bit - edgy.
I liked the Rogue a lot, but am auditioning other tube preamps in
this same price range (more or less). Also thought the Rogue had
a great soundstage, particularly the depth and width - height not so
good. All in all, a great preamp for $1200.
Presently auditioning a Quicksilver (initial impression: poor sound-
stage, good bass & nice mids). Want to audition a VTL 2.5 and
a Melos SHA GOLD (when dealer gets some decent tubes for it), and
an Audio Valve. Will report my impressions.
As for the BP25, it is a fine unit, the remote control is great,
but it is quite edgy/glary/harsh in the mids & highs on certain
discs - behavior which these tube preamps do not exhibit. Very
probably it is my room.
Hope I answered your questions.
J. Dove,
I am using a linestage based on Doc. B's foreplay circuit and a Classe CAP-100 (power section) amp. There is a slight bloom to the sound compared to the CAp-100's ss linestage. You can tell the difference if you do an AB comparision between the two. I prefer it this way.
Regards,
Joe L.
> > How many of you have a tube preamp used with a ss amp?
I used to. It's a good place to start.
Tubed preamps don't have a high intimidation
factor and can give you a taste of other
possibilities.
> > How much of that 'tube' sound comes out of this combination?
Depends on a number of variables, including
the design of the pre, the types of tubes used,
the design of the amp, the speakers ...
In my case, the pre-amp could not warm up
the system enough (Dunlavy speakers and Sunfire amp)
> > Seems like this would be a way to warm up a cold cd player and yet
have the power and tight base of the ss...
Yes, it can have that effect.
But it's not the same as having a tubed amp.
There are tubed amps that offer solid bass response.
That said, you may begin to care a lot less about bass
once you hear the magic of a well-fleshed out midrange.
> > What are the drawbacks?
Exactly what Rod said.
My system finally synergized when the tube amp
took up residence.
I had the same concerns/desires as you when I was putting my system together.
I'm using a BAT VK-30 tube preamp with a Classe CA-150 SS amp driving Sonus Faber Grand Pianos (87db 1W/1m) using a BAT VK-D5 CDP. Before I rolled the stock Sovtek tubes to Amperex NOS, I have to say the sound was not particulary "tube like", but definitely more musical than a pure SS setup in the price range. But the NOS tubes made a HUGE difference.
Never the less, I think I'm coming around to the "tube head" point of view. I had the opportunity to listen to CJ Premier 12 amps with the Premier 16LS preamp. The sound was magnificent! I don't think a tube pre/ss amp combo can ever achieve this kind of sound. Just my humble opinion. But, since tube amps present spouse acceptance problems for me, I compromised with a moderately warm SS amp. It does the job...for now. ;-)
I do. In terms of the tube sound, IMO, it depends a lot on the particular preamp. Some don't sound real tubey. OTOH, it made a big difference for the better in my system. And yes, a tube pre can add warmth and improve the sound quite a bit. Then you also get to play with different tubes to tailor the sound to your preference. I found that NOS tubes were much better in the warmth category than the stock tubes that came with mine.
As far as drawbacks, the only one I can see is the lack of a tube amp, hehehe ;)
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