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I know this has been discussed here before, but after looking at the posts and responses from this week alone, you can see a disturbing trend in this group to discussing anything but high end audio. Am I the only one getting tired of reading I refuse to respond) to people asking questions about tlelvision, computers, boom boxes, and receivers? Am I the only one getting tired of trying to educate the unknowing about things like stereo really can soundstage or equipment does change sound as it breaks in? Is anyone else tired of seeing obvious, deliberate trolls just to see what reaction someone can get (obviously these people didn't get enough attention as a child)?I came and come back to this group because I found interesting discussions about high end audio, differences of opinion about what's important, tips for tweeking or upgrading systems, or just reading what some of the sage members of this group have to say. Instead, I read a lot of things about something other than high end audio and debates by newbies that would know a resistor if it bit them in the ass.
I don't know if anyone else feels like I do, but I would sure like to see the group change back to what it was when I first came here about 2 years ago.
Any ideas how to morph this group back? For those of you who don't agree or are offended, I am sorry to have taken your time with this post.
For the rest of you, good listening
gjg
Follow Ups:
If AA wants to be a place for industry people and very serious "do it yourself" hobbyists to congregate and discuss technical issues then some restrictions/restructuring are definitely in order.If on the other hand, AA want's to be a place that cultivates a general interest in audio(equipment & music) where everyone can trade thoughts without respect to technical expertise, then the bored is already doing a good job.
There are a lot of people I would consider experts who post regularly on this forum including manufacturers, designers, journalists, electrical engineers, musicians and the like. As a non-expert, albiet one with a serious interest in audio for almost 30 years and thousands of $'s invested in equipment & music, I've learned a lot here.
My impression is that AA is contributing to the future of the industry by growing newbies into full fledged audiophiles with some regularity. Personally, I like this direction. My biggest gripe is with those few posters who don't exercise some reasonable degree of civility in their comments or go on personal vendettas against some of the higher profile posters who contribute to the discussions. Yes, there are some banal posts but I have no problem ignoring them.
By the way, I notice your name is not in bold print. Have you joined and contributed to the cause? If not, you probably should!
All the best!
Chris
For as long as I have been involved in "high end" audio (Now 25+ years), two general concerns have persisted among audiophiles: 1)The imminent demise of the industry, a concern which has reached near fever-pitch in recent years; and 2) The elitist attitude of far too many retailers, one which obviously feeds into No 1).Some of the posts on this thread seem to share at least some of this attitude, one which scarcely will encourage novices to continue to pursue a hobby that appears to be dominated by snobs. The sales "associates" at Best Buy, Circuit City, The Wiz, etc., may not be terribly knowledgable, but at least they are usually friendly and as helpful as 30 minutes training allows them to be! And they don't make you feel like a complete idiot for asking rudimentary questions.
Perhaps this is not a perfect analogy, but I think it's close enough to (I hope) make the point that we need to encourage, not discourage, people to develop a stronger interest in this hobby. If that means wading through some less than enlightening posts or exercising patience with newcomers, well, I for one am all for it.
Have to agree about the elitist attitudes of the dealers.
For the past few months I have been shopping for a new stereo
for my living room. I have no experience with "high-end"
but am now reluctant to even enter the small specialty
shops after a few bad experiences. In addition to attitudes,
why pay MSRP? Why shop someplace where they make you ask
the price of everything instead of using price-tags? Why
should I have only 7 days to audition a loudspeaker, when
another store will give me 30 or 45? Why deal with people
that feel like they have to badmouth the products at other
stores? I've only had one acceptable visit to a specialty
store; all the rest have been miserable.Oh, and I think that it is terribly funny to read about people
who dress up to go audio shopping, just so that they will be
taken seriously. Shouldn't the salesman be trying to impress the
customer, instead of the other way around?Cheers.
Just ignore the idiotic posts -- unless they present an opportunity to say something intelligent, despite their sorry origins. (I've seem some very interesting and good discussions grow out of idiotic beginnings.)
Although I myself have asked some newbie questions, I
can understand your frustration. One idea is to have a
"NEWBIES CLICK HERE" on the main site, which points people
to the audio faq (which is very useful for those of us
who don't know much), and a 1 paragraph blurb about
using the search function, etc. I admit that it shouldn't
be necessary for you to do this, but given the situation
it might be worth an hour of someone's time to set it up.
By the way, the search engine is fantastic, and makes this
site extra useful.A second idea is to add a "misc" forum for people to talk
about non-audio related stuff.Cheers.
Jason Franz
See my "Suggestion for AA" a few posts below. I too thought something like that is needed, and it ought to be put where newbies will see it - BY THE SUBMIT BUTTON!!!
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
good suggestions. The "misc" forum exists. It's called "Outside."
Two years ago AA was packed with industry insiders and serious hobbyists. The audio IQ was way high, and I felt priviledged just to ask questions and post in this forum.Then the audio masses discovered AA, and the level of serious discussion became diluted. I myself am closer to being audio-rabble than audio-expert, but that's not my point. It's the opinions of knowledgable inmates that matter most to me, and not that I or some other numbskull gets to put in their two cents all the time.
Yes I think there's been too much democracy at AA, and here's my proposed remedy. Inmates who professionally review or design audio gear should get 16 point fonts for their posts. Anybody else who can DIY or who has industry affiliation should get 14 point fonts. Long term inmates who've paid their AA dues get 12 point fonts. Most everybody else gets 10 point fonts. Exception: Anybody who persists in off topic posting or rants on about midfi consumer electronics deserves 8 point or smaller fonts until their posts become unreadable.
Ok, ok ... It was just a thought. Not a bad idea though to find a way to rank the audio-expertise of inmates.
ggraff I completely agree with you. I have found, over the years, that if the website doesn't actively support higher levels of discussion, then the people with much to contribute, don't continue to spend time on it.
Like any area of interest, there are many levels of appreciation and discussion. There is plenty to discuss at the forefront of hi fi, without leaving out most of the people who regularly contribute here. It is difficult to do so, however, if people will not try to learn a little about the subject at hand, by looking it up in a textbook, or searching the web for a tutorial on the subject, when they have a fundamental lack of knowledge in that area. Instead, they either demand that we teach them, or even worse, they express their opinion on the subject, without any real understanding of what they are forming an opinion on.
For example, let's look at capacitors.
Some people have never studied capacitors in any depth. They don't know much about dielectric absorption, nonlinear distortion in some types, or that caps are sensitive to vibration and that they all self resonate at a predictable frequency. This information has been known, more or less, for more the 50 years, yet someone will opine that 'A capacitor is a capacitor' and then will challenge us to prove differently. What a waste of time!
If the board desires a elite forum, this would be a very simple problem to solve.The Board could meet and decide which monikers could post and which could not. A special code could be assigned the moniker indicating who could post. Those registered inmates that were allowed to post could do so without having the rest of us imbiciles butting in.
If a new member wishes to post he/she could submit his/her resume to the board to be reviewed for posting privledges.
Of course this would totally eliminate the bitching about newbies and stupid budding audiophiles and may take the fun away from the "experts" - Your Choice!
Cut-Throat
Good solution, Cut-Throat!I am very much for it, as long as I can join in
with that "Elite"
Which would be quite easy for meas groman
knows more....
_Life is short - Death will come; Have a good time!_
Yeah what are those cheap no good lo fi people even looking at this page. They dont deserve to. Because we are hifi and no one should be above us. Maybe there should be sign on the first page that says all you lofi owning pieces of crap dont belong here. I mean seriously guys get over it. All of you hifi people can still talk about hifi and all the lofi can talk about lofi. This is the AUDIO asylum, not the hifi asylum change the name or something. We start lofi and endup hifi unless we are stinkin rich or something. Just remember where you started. Not cool not great and certainly not hifi. I am slowly moving up in the midfi world. Hey its a step up from lofi and I owe it all to this forum. Some people just need a little direction.
nt.
Your correct, but you will get little support by the people who feel like you. Its easier to shout down and have lower standards than to uphold a minimum requirement to commitment.Most of the people (now including myself) who feel like you lay low, read what they think is the reason the site exists and put a blind eye to the chaff. Just wish there was more grain.
Instead of true tribulations in life like disease, hunger, war etc.
Cut-Throat
What's the solution? I sure wish I knew, but then we've had that discussion too. Two ideas that have been tossed around are a Member Only type of thing that might have higher standards and some software tricks. The software would take a while, but has the most promise. What I envision long term is the ability to mark posts and threads based on their quality and/or topic material. We could then do some collaborative filtering to personalize the grain for each person. Unfortunately, that's a long term project and won't happen terribly quick.
the commitment either exists in the individuals or it doesn't.I really don't look to the board to fix it, it should be the inmates who set that bar.
I am sorry if my rant came off as an elities diatribe, that was not what was intended. I have no issue trying to assist a newbie in his/her pursuits in this hobby. I do have an issue with a newbie (or anyone else for that matter) telling me I can't hear something because it doesn't make sense to him/her. I also get tired of seeing posts about things not related to audio/music; however, a little humor is always appreciated. I think many if us tend to take this hobby a little more seriously than we should, myself included. As for the high end, elitist comments, I stand corrected and appoligize to one and all.Good listening
gjg
ggraff, you didn't say anything 'elitist' , it is just that some people accused you of it. You made a fair commentary. The problem is that many individuals, who know more than just what a tech might have learned, will not contribute to this site, if it is basically a newbie/cynic website, and no serious questions are addressed.
Think about a 'car' magazine. I read them, and I am not an expert in auto design. Do I want to read that all tires are essentially the same, because they worked out the problems years ago? How about buying a used car for less than $500? Or how to fix a Ford Pinto that you found in someones back yard?
I read 'car' magazines to see how cars are being improved, how to fix classic cars, and about cars that I can only dream about.
To those inmates, who've owned equipment designed by the worlds best maker of classic gear, Henry Kloss , Saul Marantz.Products withstanding the test of time for great value, fair prices.That enhanced Audio to the masses.Otherwise anyone owning a John Curl design , entry being $10.000 per pre-amp ,great untill it falls from favor from the product of the month club.These people are never satisfied.
All others need not apply.
BTW there are all sorts of consumer interest mags,you pay for the type that interest you. Leaving the others on the shelf at Borders.
We have no such luxury on AA except to not read post we deem to infintile.
Joe M, are you ignorant of my Parasound preamp designs? I am working on one, today! It is true that not everyone can afford a CTC, but sometimes it is fun to make an ultra high quality product. On the other hand, it is a challenge to make a good cost-effective design. Henry Kloss made some good stuff, I liked his KLH11 and his mono FM receiver. Used one for years. Saul Marantz made some really expensive stuff, for its time. He virtually went broke funding the Marantz 10B tuner project. He told me this, himself, when I worked with him for several years. The solid state preamp that we made together, had it gone intro production, would have been over $2,000, about 15 years ago. Not the most expensive design, but adequate to the task.
I agree, It seems that the amount of sophomoric posts is increasing at a rate that makes it hard to find the integrity that was once this forum. I don't visit as often anymore.
As others have mentioned here, as we progress in our knowledge, we become somewhat bored with posts that once may have held our interest.But, we audiophiles are a small group in relative terms. If we are ever to get more influence as a group we have to grow our ranks.
As such, we have to foster the education of new arrivees.
There are too many people out there that are very content with a boom box or a walkman or a Sears rack system. They are the majority which influence major facets of the music industry since they constitue the lions share of the revenue stream. Generally speaking they appear to be somewhat blind to things that bother the hell out of us. Their silence deafens our grievances.
If we are ever to better battle the industry in terms of poor recordings/masterings/copy protection/selections/etc... we have to get the word out that there is good music reproduction to be found on the cheap and begin to educate the public on how herded we have become. The industry does what it wants because it can.
I say, the more audiophiles to vote with their dollars the better.
...so you could easily skip ones that don't interest you. If that were the case, why would you care if people are chatting about table radios? Just scroll on by.In other words, I don't care what people post about, so long as I can weed out the uninteresting (to me) without actually opening every single message. (56k, limited patience and a lot of activity here.)
- This signature is two channel only -
Hey, I could join the "elitist" camp, what with the equipment I possess today, however, it just won't do. I can remember the me some years back and deleriously happy over my first reciever of 100w/channel, the first pair of floorstanders, first real audiophile cartridge for my turntable and so on.Luckily for me most of this took place during that golden age of high-end of the late 70's and early 80's. Meeting other folks so disposed wasn't as easy as it is today, what with the global community that is the internet.
Just today I was out to the high-end shops. Just today I bought a used BAT VK3i tube pre to replace a SS preamp. The thrill is still there, and I got to listen to some nice Totem speakers, the NuVista cd player and the NuVista integrated amp. Chatted with some other folks with the same interests at the stores and had a great time.
Remember that this thing we share is about the music. THE MUSIC.
The music plays from boomboxes, "ghetto blasters", table radios, recievers as well as from multi-thousand dollar separates. Let's share the love of the music, and help those who may not be at the same level, not just once, but each time a new person posts here. The high-end is sick enough on it's own the days, let's not finish it off with elitism.otari
How about a text line by the submit button that says something like "Did you check the archives? Your question might have already been answered. Click here for the search engine and tips on how to use it."
Then the link could open up a search engine tips/instructions as well as posting tips (listing the rest of the system, room info...) Keep it short though.Perhaps some folks just don't know what resources are available to them here or how to best utilize this board. Waddya think?
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
This is the "General Asylum." No where have I seen a rule that states "Only High-End."I'm sure that I speak for a lot of the inmates (newbies, too) when I say I don't appreciate the general flaming you've given most of us with your post. Most of us enjoy audio a great deal and appreciate fine equipment - may even own some - but we aren't obsessive to the point where "audio" is defined as only the "high-end", which is, anyways, open to a sliding definition.
There are other forums, such as vinyl, tubes, and vintage that cater more to the high-end. The general asylum should be for general topics related to audio. I don't bother with the postings that are off topic. Life is too short for me to get upset over something so incredibly trivial.
nt
I would bet that *every* conceivable topic in audiophilia has been
broached at least twice on these boards in the past 3 years, and
some a lot more than that. Big deal.As far as helping newbies, who helped you when you were getting
started? Remember, you were a pain in the ass at one point too.And if you think it's annoying to go thru posts on a *voluntary*
basis, become a moderator: you will discover the true meaning
of annoying, boring, and tedious.Mike
KP
When I first came to AA I was a total neophyte, a know-nothing. Most any post that I read at that time held some interest. As I have become more educated a smaller percentage of the posts have interest to me. I just don't read them. Although I do have a twinge of guilt for not replying to a post to which I know the answer, because sometime back someother gererous inmate gave of his or her time and effort to answer my inquiries.So I find fewer posts of interest, but I think it's more because I have changed. AA may or may not have changed. However, it's still a great place to visit.
Although I could do without the monthly complaints about Stereophile.
OK there are quite a few naive posts and the laziness of some in not doing a search or looking in FAQ can be irritating BUT, if we are interested in the high end prospering we should be tolerant and encourage the nubies. We were all nubies once.As for the non audio posts, they add an air of friendliness to the board and should be tolerated as long as they do not become too pervasive. The headers usually indicate the topic so, if it is not in your area of interest then skip past it.
However this would be my beef - headers are often not clearly thought out and can be misleading.
Bottom line is for experienced inmates to post intelligent posts from time to time to lift the standards of discussion if they think them to be lacking. There is not much point in trying to be elitist. No one could herd the cats to do this anyway.
John
Peace at AA
There's more to life than audio, and I enjoy seeing what a well-rounded bunch of lunatics hang out here. Guns, swords, knives, fly rods--they're into everything but needlepoint and macrame, and some may be into that.
I find elitism to be a big pain in the #!$. Too often it is practiced by someone with lots of opinion but little in the way of proof. I know that most of the "golden-eared audiophiles" are well-mannered and know their subject BUT there is that small percentage who are arrogant in their ignorance AND PROUD OF IT.As a practicing audiophile-on-a-budget for over 30 years, I've seen more than my share of audio snobs. They are enthusiastic to the point of nausea and really tiresome to be around.
About 20 years ago a then friend asked me for my "honest opinion" about his new megabuck loudspeakers. I told him they were fine speakers but sounded like crap because of the way he had them set up. I was asked to leave his house and he has spoken to me exactly once since then. But, boy, could he carry on.
As a tech, I know a bit about the subject of audio equipment and am amused and horrified at the myths, dogmas, and plain BS that so many people, newbies and audiophile alike, believe. Too many do not realise that much of what they hear about expensive audio gear is straight from the adwriter's imagination nor that much of the differences they "hear" between pieces of equipment is nothing more than short memory and the placebo effect.
All that's fine but I don't wanna hear it over and over and over and over.............. I'll just remain a member of the lower class, knowing what I know and being considered an audio barbarian by the elitists and the snobs.
Course, the rest of us will be enjoying ourselves while they work themselves up into a lather over our ignorance.
nt
nt
Cut-Throat
one thing I can't stand about this hobby is
elitisism. I see it might be a nature of the beast
but, doesn't have to be that way.I've never let myself bothered, however,
it can turn off so many people from discovering
farther into this wonderful world of hi-end audio.
If I open a post that starts mentioning 5.1 or fronts and rears, Center Channel - I exit from that post faster than anything. This is a world that needs it own forum IMHO. Called Home Theater.Maybe we could rename the Video Asylum the Home Theater Asylum.
Cut-Throat
I too get tired of people trying to position speakers around a big screen TV, looking for 5 channel receivers, surround speakers, etc...If I had a question about such things, I would post it in the Video Asylum. Who cares about all that crap when it comes to enjoying music?
Oz
Seems to be a common human behavior.that's why the search function is so nice, I think, personally.
JJ
it's like that on every single other forum. I can go back on one on Audi cars for example that I haven't visited in sixmonths and see exactly the same old tired questions that were there 2 years ago.People are just too lazy to search for the info they want, it seems it's just easier to ask someone else. I go through the same at work every day- gee how do you do (insert anything here) ?
Well, did you try reading the manual or using the help?
The search engine on this site is great and I've been able to find useful information for every question I've had while putting my system together.When I first started coming here and would want to learn about a piece of gear or a tube or an idea the first thing I would do is search for it. I often had my questions answered or, if not, I could ask them more specifically based on the info already available. I'm sure it didn't stop me from asking dumb or redundant questions but it sure made for less of them.
The useful information and interesting discussions are still here but there are a LOT more posts then ever before so the good/interesting ones make up a smaller percentage of the whole. Also the pages move so quickly that a lot of discussions don't have time to form like they did in the past.
One thing I have to say is if you are tired of reading posts you don't like to read or that distract from your idea of the kinds of posts that belong here, why do read them?
> One thing I have to say is if you are tired of reading posts you don't like to read or that distract from your idea of the kinds of posts that belong here, why do read them?You can't avoid reading the subject line. You pretty much have to read the subject line to find out whether you wanted to read the subject line or not. It's catch-22 at its worst. You can avoid getting into the post, but you can't avoid the title.
At times, someone will use an innocuous subject line to get you to read their trash, and there's not much you can do about that.
I agree with you that sometimes it is hard to wade through all the noise. What I don't like are all the duplicate questions on a daily basis. I know that new people arrive all the time, but even I figured out how to search or read a few pages before asking. Perhaps the first several screens you have to wade through if you are not registered could be search pages? Just a minor complaint.
Matthew
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