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With the big debate about Levinson maybe selling a cheap amp for big bucks, I'm kinda curious about the real cheap amp.
Could this be SO good that it could be passed over as a $2,000 amp after a few mods?
Could a trusted reviewer write glowing words like: "The best darn amp under a grand, not to mention under $200!!!"
Anyone heard it? Can we get it in the US?
Dan (always thinking cheap)
Follow Ups:
nt
this amp is intended to be used with a PC to provide better quality sound than you would get via a soundcard and crappy plastic speakers. How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?Oh, sorry, I forgot, they're not the same: one is an inexpensive piece from China and the other is a inexpensive piece from China with a Designer label. :-).
-Joe.
1. Buy a cheap, but well constructed Chinese amp that looks like an expensive american amp.2. After consulting the many industry and experienced DIY types at the Tweak/DIY and Tube Forums, I'll replace the transformers, tubes, capacitors, and resistors with "better" quality ones (and of course, I now know that anything more expensive is better!!).
3. Put it in my system, plug it in, and know that I have matched Mark Levinson's best for a fraction of the cost.
Damn, I just forgot, the sound of any Levinson-based system I have heard was so tight and constipated, that it reproduced the farts of the musicians better than the music itself.
Dave
Dave,
I'm not sure the Korsun "looks like an expensive American amp" given its diminutive size. When you see the Rosette next to the wine glass (in the ads), you realize how small it is. Of course, it's the sound that counts, but we've come to associate a certain amount of size with quality, especially with American amps.Bruce
Thanks for the laugh, Dave. I needed that. What I thought was a mere throwaway comment was more like throwing a match into a can or Kerosene. One small point: the Korsun is a SS amp, so there aren't any tubes to change. OTOH, adding tubes could be interesting...-Joe.
We need a new accessory for units like these. We need the glow of a vacuum tube, so we should make a box with a tube on top that can be placed on or near SS hi fi. Then the tube can be made to glow by turning on the filament, and maybe putting a little voltage on the plate as well. Then we can put in discarded or gassy tubes--- think of the purple glow! You can change the tube to fit your mood. For a heavy date, put in a Russian direct filament to imply that you are 'in the mood' (to dance or other things) ;-) Remember you heard about it here first!
Without going into too much detail, I can testify to the romantic effect of listening to twin 845s glowing away in the dark ;-p .Moth sells a tube-enabled bedside lamp: Nitelite maybe this could be adapted for the benefit of SS amp owners?
-Joe.
Darn, Joe. They 'stole' my idea, before I even thought of it! ;-)
I bet you glow in the dark...................My knuckles hurt.
regards rod
> I bet you glow in the dark?????
> My knuckles hurt.
and I'm sure your wrist is sore too.
-JOe.
socketed devices so solid statesmen can have as much fun as tubers.Then a typical question might be:
John Curl: Can I substitute ZF17AU1 output transistors for the stock ones in a Parasound NewAge Model 15 amp?
or typical comment might be:
I replaced the Toyon resistors in my Yamaneer amp receiver with Holco's and now it improved the sound by 6.7%! Sounds better than my friends $6K Krell amps now.
Then again, all I need is a brightly glowing 811A with only the filament lit to really make a plain box exciting. I think I'll try it with an old Japanese amp. All I need to do is find an amp with room for a filament tranny, punch a hole in the top cover of the amp and put a tube socket in it. I'll bet I could even convince some folks that it sounds better!
Dave
& make it expensive. Works for ML I'm told
regards rod
Gosh Rod, and after telling the ML knockers to bite their bums :-)
It was
regards rod
Using Joe's rules you could lie in court and get away with it."Sorry your honour I wasn't perjuring meself, I was being ironic"
I'll have to try it next ti... (uhoh) I mean if I ever have to go to court.
Are you saying the Red Rose amp is a con trick? Have you any evidence that this is so, or is it just hearsay. Tut tut
regards rod
> Are you saying the Red Rose amp is a con trick? < <(sigh) don't you know it's the height of rudeess to attempt tp put words into another person's mouth?
> Have you any evidence that this is so, or is it just hearsay. Tut tut
Rod, please see my post below, maybe you could borrow a dollar from somewhere so you can buy a clue.
Cheers,
-Joe.
How do you know it is the same thing? Maybe you guys are
completely wrong and are just making fools of yourselves?
Why don't you quit slandering Mark Levinson and wait
for some real proof before he sues this site and you have no where to spend your Friday and Saturday nights.
The rules of this site should be read by all including
the web master! I don't want to see this site shut down
because there is some legitimate information for people
who love music and want to get the most out of their system.
I have read the rules, too many times actually. As to specific enforcement of flaming issues, we rely primarily on the community to alert us to those problems. Flaming is a bit like pornography, sometimes it's easy to spot and most often, each person has a different perspective of where the line between heated discussion and flaming might lie.As to libel and slander, post at your own risk. Sorry guys, but our AAA has researched this extensively and is somewhat of an expert in this area of public communications. Our weasel words are quite clear and consistent with case law. We're not responsible as an entity though we are happy to cooperate should anyone including ML, contact us and show that a post is in error in a material respect. Opinions of a public figure's character are simply not libelous. If they were, W would have an action against half the people in the country. There's a huge difference between saying that John doe is a jerk and saying that he is a child molester.
Here's the relevant portion:
Who we are/Weasel Words:
A.
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The Asylum does not endorse or guarantee the accuracy of any post made here and
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The content of any post is solely the responsibility of the poster, even if that poster is a
member of the Bored, an administrator of the Asylum or a moderator of a forum.
The Asylum will cooperate with any valid subpoena or other legal process in supplying
copies of posts and any information the Asylum has concerning the identity of a poster, to
the extent that such information is not already available to anyone who accesses the AA web
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I am sure he will wait until he finishes building the review sample for Listener until he sues us all. That way, he'll actually have a basis for the suit. hahahB
fyi: ML is a public figure and any comments about him are protected by the first amendment. If the products really are different then ML is at liberty to simply post a description of the internal differnces here.Your post comes across as a vield threat against AA. Surely that was unintentional?
-Joe,
...............If the products really are different then ML is at liberty to simply post a description of the internal differnces here..........What a pompous asinine statement. AA is the Micro$oft of high end is it? The millionaire high-end manufacturers come to us for judgment as to the value of their products. If they did high end would be dead tomorrow. We all pay far more for our gear then it is worth. But we are prepared to do that for a 5%-10% gain in performance.
regards rod
It seems that once again, I have managed to defeat the collective intelligence of AA's Brains-Trust.For those of you who really didn't get the point of my post, here is a definition from Webster's for you:
I·ro·ny (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·niesThe use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).
An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
Dramatic irony.
Socratic irony.My comments on the Korsun were entirely ironic in intent ad were meant merely to poke fun at those who are kicking up such a fuss over this amp (see my previous posts on this subject if you doubt my true position). I guess that passed a few of you by. Sorry about that.
-Joe.
Certainly passed me by.You said :-
> > "this amp is intended to be used with a PC to provide better quality sound than you would get via a soundcard and crappy plastic speakers. How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?" < <Where's the irony in that?
> > > "this amp is intended to be used with a PC to provide better quality sound than you would get via a soundcard and crappy plastic speakers. How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?" < <> Where's the irony in that?
I think it passed him by, lol.
Then after such a statement he has the nerve to say:
"(sigh) don't you know it's the height of rudeess to attempt tp put words into another person's mouth?"
I don't think that R B was putting words into his mouth, it's blatanly obvious what he said. Either he is truly dumb and ingnorant of what he ACTUALLY says, or maybe it's just a case of Jekyll and Hyde.
...you should join Fisherman when he attends his remedial English comprehension class. Either that, or stick to threads that are not so far beyond your intellectual capacity that you end up making a total fool of yourself in public.Cheers,
-Joe.
OK, let's take my comments in context, shall we? The original poster wrote this:> > > With the big debate about Levinson maybe selling a cheap amp for big bucks, I'm kinda curious about the real cheap amp. < < <
now your quote, out of context, from my post:
> > "this amp is intended to be used with a PC to provide better quality sound than you would get via a soundcard and crappy plastic speakers. How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?" < <
Let's take the first sentence: "this amp is intended to be used with a PC to provide better quality sound than you would get via a soundcard and crappy plastic speakers."
This is referrig to the Korsun U2 amp and, as far as I am aware, is true.
The second sentence:
> > How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp? < <
Is a question and a rhetorical one at that. I am simply re-iterating the original poster's accusation and asking "how can this be so?". I made no attempt to answer that question myself, but I would be interested to read an explanation from ML or anyone else in the know.
Clear now? Or do I have to start adding disclaimers to my posts? Sheesh!
-Joe.
It appears, Joe, that you may have listened to too much Alanis Morissette. Virtually all of what she describes as "ironic" is simply unfortunate coincidence. True irony necessitates that a statement clearly communicate one premise (the literal meaning to which you refer) while subtly suggesting that the converse of this literal meaning is in fact the real truth. So lets look at your statements taken DIRECTLY from your post (not out of context): "this amp is intended to be used with a PC to provide better quality sound than you would get via a soundcard and crappy plastic speakers." This is, by your own admission, a true statement, and therefore lacks the capacity to express irony. "How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?" This is a rhetorical question which qualifies as tongue-in-cheek, perhaps, but the reader can reasonably reach only one of two conclusions- (1) (by some unnamed mechanism) logo plus price tag DO transform the Korsun into a high end amp or (2) logo plus price tag DO NOT transform cheap-fi into high-fi. Since you make no STATEMENT, neither reasonable conclusion can be seen as contrary in meaning, thereby excluding irony. "Oh, sorry, I forgot, they're not the same: one is an inexpensive piece from China and the other is a inexpensive piece from China with a Designer label." The stated meaning is that there is no functional difference in the two pieces of equipment, and cosmetic differences are limited to the name badge. Therefore, you state simply that the two amps are essentially identical. In order for this to even come close to being ironic, the reader must necessarily conclude that you actually intended to express that the opposite is indeed the case- i.e., that the Red Rose product is so superior to the Korsun as to make the statement patently ludicrous at face value. Again, this would qualify much more as tongue-in-cheek than ironic.Now, what I would love to see would be a head-to-head comparison, by Mr. Levinson, of a Red Rose Rosette (from his showroom) to a Korsun U2 which is in ACTUALITY (and unbeknownst to him) a Red Rose Rosette bought from his store and re-rebadged with the Korsun logo. Why, for him to declare the "Rosette" the clear sonic champion of such a duel would be, well... what’s the word for that?
Thank you for your reply. Beautifully ducked.Now would you oblige me by answering my question?
Where is the irony in the statements you made in your post "are you serious"?
> > Thank you for your reply. Beautifully ducked.To be perfectly frank I've been amazed by the hostility of the responses to my post (maybe some vested interests were tweaked?) not to mention the level of knuckle-dragging, low-brow stupidity that has been on display by those who simply will not comprehend a simple explanation (DM excepted, thank you Mr. Mobius).
You asked for an explanation of the passage that you quoted. I gave you one.
Would you like another?
Perhaps one that is a little more simplified FOR THE HARD OF THINKING?
Fine. Try this one on for size:
Let me start over with the original troll, er sorry, post from Marantzman:
> > With the big debate about Levinson maybe selling a cheap amp for big bucks, I'm kinda curious about the real cheap amp.
Could this be SO good that it could be passed over as a $2,000 amp after a few mods? < <Now, do you seriously think Marantzman or many others would be interested in this obscure PC-friendly amp if it hadn't recently been associated with Red Rose and hence ML? This guy seems to want to know if he can get the equivalent performance of the Rosette (and by implication other $2000 amps) on the cheap. Hence my (entirely IRONIC) response:
"How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?"
Now, to me, the meaning of the above is so obvious as to not need any further explanation, but for the knuckle draggers amongst you, in order to make sense of an Ironic statement, you have to perform some mental gymnastics and reverse the meaning. I'll save you the trouble by translating and paraphrasing it for you.
What I meant was: "THE KORSUN U2 IS NOT A ROSETTE NOR IS IT A HI-END AMP, IT IS A DEVICE INTENDED TO BE USED WITH PCs. YOU PROBABLY WILL NOT GET HI-END PERFORMANCE FROM THIS AMP."
Clear now?
Of course, without hearing one, I can't say for sure that it wouldn't compare favorably with $2000 amps or even the Rosette, but I think it's unlikely. Anyway, it seems someone else shares my point of view on this matter. who might that be? Well none other than ML himself:
"Rosette is a completely different product. Rosette competes against high end separates in the 5k -20k price range. No $260 amp can do that"
The following quote is from this post to an earlier thread: Red Rose Music Rosette amp vs Korsun u2 mystery solved
I don't know if you seriously failed to comprehend my earlier post, or are just being cute, but if you really do lack the cognitive ability to understand my posts, then I would suggest that in future you just skip over them and save your remaining brain cells for something that is mor on your level.
Cheers,
-Joe.
I knew this was a hot subject, but it wasn't intended as a troll. Perhaps I should've simply asked about the Korsun without again bringing up the Levinson amp. My mistake.
I was, and still am curious if anyone has heard the Korsun and what they think of it.
I also wasn't aware that it was intended as a PC amp, along the lines of those from Yamaha.
I'm looking forward to Listener's review.
Dan
...the fallout was worthy of a good one.perhaps you could answer a quesiton for me: would you be just as interested in hearing the Korsun U2 if it hadn't been linked to Red Rose and ML?
-JOe.
Most likely.
The only reason I've ever heard of the Korsun is due to the ML debate. A good integrated amp is next on my upgrade list and I'm interested in anything under $1,000. So if this amp came up in posts as a real contender, and with nothing to do with Levinson, then I could add it to my short list.
Thanks,
Dan
Joe old chap,you see darkness where none exists.
Make life simple, say what you mean.
...or you're not as funny as you think you are. Your original post really didn't seem fair to Red Rose. What's the definition of troll?Your later post Rod, you have already proved to the world what a Jerk you are, there really is no need to underline the fact. certainly qualifies as a flame.
C. No flames, personal attacks or contentious off-topic comments: The idea is to make this a pleasant environment to discuss audio, not a schoolyard, or name-calling and rock-throwing festival.
So, both rules B and C broken in one day. Bravo. Soon this place will become the Audioreview forum. Sorry to be such a pedant.
> > Your original post really didn't seem fair to Red Rose. What's the definition of troll? < <You're new to this, aren't you?
> > So, both rules B and C broken in one day < <
Can you explain how falsely accusig someone of slander for making an Ironic statement is not also a flame, genius?
-Joe,
Perhaps 'slander' by Quad was incorrect, but it was based on a post that seemed unfair to ML, attempt at irony nonwithstanding. Does this justify your flames of others?I've been here a while, both reading and posting. I think rules B and C are good ones, and encourage following them.
Perhaps re-read your posts, and moderate your tone in the future.
Thanks for calling me a genius, I'm flattered!
How does applying the Red Rose logo and slapping on a $2000 price hike suddenly make it a high-end amp?Does not read(to me) as a good example of irony, instead it seems like a statement of fact. While in the form of a question, it implies that Red Rose made no other physical modifications except "slapping on a $2000 price hike" . The only way that your sentence could be factually true is if you, or someone else, has made a direct comparison of both amplifier's physical components, both external and internal. Were you referring to a published review comparing the units?
Although, your following sentence was clearly ironic in nature:
Oh, sorry, I forgot, they're not the same: one is an inexpensive piece from China and the other is a inexpensive piece from China with a Designer label. :-).
So, to me, it seems your post was a mixture of both accusation and irony, maybe that was the reason people misinterpeted it.
nt
I am not a lawyer but how is a man who owns a small
company a public figure?
I am not in a position to threaten anybody just a concerned
reader of this forum.
B. No defamatory statements:
Defamatory statements are, for example, statements that contain certain kinds of untrue factual information about a
person or a company that is derogatory. It's okay to say that the Belchfire amplifier sounds "flat and uninvolving."
It's not okay to say that the amplifier doesn't meet its published specifications, unless you back the statement up with
proof. Likewise, it's not okay to accuse a person or company of being dishonest, committing fraud, etc.
As a general rule, avoid repeating vague and unsubstantiated rumors about someone or some company. Stick to your
experiences and your opinions, based on what you know not what you have heard on the grapevine.I think Mark Levinson is an arrogant jerk, based on his comments in the mainstream press last month. I've never owned his gear, nor do I desire to. That said, I don't think it's fair to claim that the Red Rose amp and the Korsun amp are identical except labelling until there is some proof. It could be true, but we don't have the facts. To say that ML has the right to respond does not justify spreading unsubstantiated rumors the first place.
So far, there've been a lot of posts implying that Red Rose is just marking up a cheaper amp. This isn't exactly fraud, but does imply some dishonesty or less than straightforwardness.
I've not seen any posts from anyone who's taken one sample of each apart to check for differences.
I've not seen any posts from anyone who's listened to one of each side by side.
I've not seen any posts from anyone who has schematics of both.
I've not seen any posts from anyone who has made detailed measurements of both amps.
I've not seen any posts from anyone who has seen both amps, in person, up close.
I've seen pictures of both. They look alike. They may even have been based on the same design at one time. Big deal.
How about a more cautious measured approach? Like: "Wow, they look alike! We need to investigate this."
Rule B is a good one. Let's stick to it until we get some meatier information.
Your pointing out Rule B seems very fair. It clearly seems to apply. I have a decent history of following the rules around here, and as such will refrain from anymore comment on the subject.
Your response was welcomed.You should really try to throw that TV out the window.
:)
and small business owners are not exempt from being highlighted for price gouge tactics. No free pass on ethics, foot in mouth or being greedy by being a "small business owner".No one slandered. Its like saying a Lexus is a tarted up Toyota. It is a rebadged unit that has a price increase. Is Lexus now within its right to shut down the site.
QuadESL - you seem to be overly protective of this subject/guy. You now are veiling a threat. Besides your over protective "concern" for this site, whats your stake in exposing Red Rose for trying to pull one over on consumers?
All in all I think future buyers of Red Rose Rosette will benifit from the information here and around the web. They either will get a better piece from Red Rose (even more "changes" over the Korsun) or will get better piece from a competetor of Red Rose. Consumer wins and possible so does a small business owner.
Maybe the situation now is different, but five years ago all cars sold in the US as Lexus were a left-hand-steering versions of the cars made and sold in Japan as Toyota. And cars sold in the US as 'Toyota' were left-hand-steering versions of cars... that also sell as Toyota on the Japanese market. Apart from some regional trim for a particular market, engine tuning (downward), there's very little tarting-up (mostly down!).All that comes from the simple market differences. In Japan, Toyota can afford selling 10-15 lines of passenger cars (plus four-wheel-drives). In the US and Europe - 3 or 4, not more.
==
n
regards rod
............future buyers of Red Rose Rosette will benifit from the information here.................
...........exposing Red Rose for trying to pull one over on consumers...........If that information is accurate then you are correct. Posters here get berated for commenting on sound equipment that they haven’t heard & have just read about. Do you know for a fact that the Red Rose is the same inside as the Korsun & that the consumers are getting one pulled over them?
.............Lexus is a tarted up Toyota. It is a rebadged unit that has a price increase.................
If the Red Rose outperforms the Kurzon by half the margin that the Lexus outperforms a Toyota then the Red Rose would be worth the money. Any idiot can see where some of their extra money is spent on a Lexus compared to a Toyota.
regards rod
Lexus automobiles are manufactured by Toyota - you surely know that. There is no Lexus manufacturing plant - only Toyota plants where certain models destined for the U.S. and trim are badged as Lexus. I can see why Toyota chose to not market their upscale models under the Toyota badge in the U.S. - people like you appear to consider anything with the name Toyota to be inferior to the same car with a fancier name - pure snob appeal.Since what is "marketed" in the U.S. Lexus is identical except for some trim and details to upscale Toyota cars sold in Japan and other places as Toyotas, you are actually saying that Toyotas outperform Toyotas. Just as Chevy's outperform Chevy's when you run a Corvette up against a Cavalier.
From the Lexus web site: "As you may know, Lexus is a division of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. in the United States"
No flame intended, but if you refuse to (or simply cannot) comprehend the unhidden fact that Lexus cars are Toyotas that were renamed in the United States for "image" purposes to help justify higher prices, I don't know why anyone is even bothering to continue these discussions about Red Rose. I, for one, would love to see someone get one each of the Red Rose and Korsun amps and compare them component by component. OTOH, it is possible that a Chinese company decided to copy the Red Rose external design. Counterfit manufactured goods from other countries are very common in the U.S.
I chose to not get overly excited by the Red Rose/Korsun debate, nor do I feel a need to defend ML and his snob-appeal components. I am simply curious as to the relationship between these two identical-looking products.
Dave van Harn
...so, are you saying that if you made an expensive purchase (say a Red Rose Rosette integrated amp) and instructed the clerk to load your purchase in the gold lexus in the parking lot, and said clerk loaded your amp into the gold Toyota in the parking lot, upon which the owner of the gold Toyota drove away with your purchase, you would chuckle and say "well, it's my fault- the clerk did exactly what I asked him to do"?
.............Duh?? How can a Lexus outperform a Toyota if it is a Toyota......................By inserting a 4.1 ltr engine with better tyres & suspension......Duh
A quick look at the Lexus & Toyota site showed the Lexus with a 4.1 ltr engine & the Toyota with a 3.1 ltr engine. Plus all the trim Suspension & tyre differences. The Lexus is based on a Toyota not just rebadged as you contend. It's foolish to base your US Lexus on a Japanese market luxury Toyota; you compare the US Lexus with the US Toyota & make your decision. They are different cars to drive & own. Whether you think it's worth the extra money is another matter I wouldn't pay the extra myself. Just saying it's a rebaged Toyota & not acknowledge the differences is silly. Would you say a Shelby Cobra is just a rebadged Mustang? ( from your post I believe you would)
...............I, for one, would love to see someone get one each of the Red Rose and Korsun amps and compare them component by component.........
I agree 100% Dave, until that is done the ML knockers should bite their bums
regards rod
They are essentially the same car with different names. Oh, and yes, Ford did sell at least a couple of Mustangs over the years carrying the Cobra badge, but they weren't the same as original 1960's 289 and 427 Cobra's that thrashed many a Corvette when I was younger.Re-badging of automobiles generally refers to differences in international models, and since you seem to not be able to accept the fact that Lexus is a marketing arm of Toyota, I can't carry on an intelligent conversation on the subject with you.
Damn, how did a fine example of possible situations in the Korsun/Levinson debate get this far into Toyota and their Lexus-badged cars?
Sometimes I think I put to much effort into reversing ignorance about the obvious.
No hard feelings, but I fear the truth escapes you.
Later,
Dave
...knockers!!!!?????
Everyone knows Toyota make Lexus'. But a car sold here as a Toyota Camry is not the same as a car sold here as a Lexus. The car badged as a Lexus here is a higher end car. Your just playing with semantics
If I were a Lexus owner (and I know several who are not idiots), I would be insulted by your statement.Dave van Harn
.....................If I were a Lexus owner (and I know several who are not idiots), I would be insulted by your statement............
I thought you would be more insulted by having friends that paid all that extra money for a Lexus, which you reckon, is just a rebadged cheaper Toyota. I'm surprised they didn't indulge in your wise council.
regards rod
"........Any idiot can see where some of their extra money is spent on a Lexus compared to a Toyota...."
thanks for the laugh.
> > "........Any idiot can see where some of their extra money is spent on a Lexus compared to a Toyota...." < <
> thanks for the laugh. <Hey, Gold trim costs, you know :-).
-Joe.
................Hey, Gold trim costs, you know..................Agreed Joe, & you know what else? Bigger engines cost more, leather costs more, wide wheels & tyres cost more. I get the impression from some of the posts here that America missed out on all the improvements the Lexus has over the Toyota. Down here they are different cars from the same base. Must be like rocket science for some of you.
regards rod
I don't see the veiled threat. QuadESL never threatened legal action. He implied that others could.A Lexus is more than a rebadged Toyota. There are substantial differences. I can go to my local dealer and see this for myself. Fancy luxury appointments should cost more. No one has shown that the Red Rose amp is an improved, or not, Korsun.
I haven't run into such inability to comprehend simple facts in a loooong time.The car pictured is a Toyota "Aristo" in Japan. Recognize it as a US Lexus model??
In the U.S., there is a marketing company named Lexus that sells "luxury" cars manufactured by Toyota of Japan. They are the "high end" of the Toyota line. In Japan, they are sold as Toyotas. The same models ARE NOT sold under both brand names, although some were when the Lexus brand was introduced.
Why the denial of this coommonly known fact. Toyota doesn't attempt to hide it, they just avoid using the brand name Toyota whenever Lexus is involved.
Lexus is a marketing entity, and does not manufacture cars - all Lexi are manufactured by Toyota.
Dave van Harn
Geez your thick Dave. But i still like you...............I do
regards rod
Obviously a Lexus is built by Toyota. But they don't just affix a different badge to the same model, as implied in the Red Rose/Korsun debate. When you buy a Lexus, you get a better model, not the same car sold here as a Toyota.Why the insulting tone?
Thank you for being the only one who understands my point.
Hehe
regards rod
Sorry I missed you in my post you are now one of two!
I'm not being "over protective" I would like to see this forum used for talking about music and giving advice for people getting into our hobby about what you own and enjoy and actually have first hand experience with. I don't want to read hearsay and inuendu.
Until somebody has proof its the same product I think it's time to drop the subject and move on. That's just my humble opinion.
take the high road (music and enjoy).Lets see this company has a documented history of rebadging other companies equipement with no changes and charging a premium.
The owner of this company has a documented history of throwing other manufaturers components together and charging an extreme premium.
The owner also has a documented history of treating consultants, consumers and press in the audio industry with less than the civility you want others to extend to him
But your comfortable that this is not occuring again.
I'm comfortable with using information that exists and letting consumers use the information on the web to either get better equipment for their money, be that through shaming a vendor to truely improve his units or through other vendors.
That too is a very good use of this site.
I have no problem with you dropping the subject and moving on.
I have a slight problem when you show your concern about the site being closed down via legal suits and "were would we go on our Friday or Saturday night"
you may want to read the link below.It can be great fun to pile on someone who's both succesful AND comes across as highly arrogant. Everyone likes to wait in the weeds and then shoot him down as soon as an opportunity presents itself.
I find it interesting that with all the posts about this issue over the last week the one in this link didn't have ANY responses. Sometimes people just see what they want to see.
You said;
> > > Lets see this company has a documented history of rebadging other companies equipement with no changes and charging a premium. < < <Do you have that documentation?
Rules are rules..................They are
regards rod
...I went to all that trouble and he'd already capitulated...damned unfair!Maybe I should hit the refresh button next time :-)
I can see, I can see. One can only hope.
regards rod
.................Your pointing out Rule B seems very fair. It clearly seems to apply. I have a decent history of following the rules around here, and as such will refrain from anymore comment on the subject............Quads first post was very fair. Just because you don't like someone (ML) you still need facts before you smear them.
regards rod
Name one product that you have documentation on that was
a repackaged product. Show us some proof!
Since your monikar is Quad ESL, this repackage can relate to you (and incidently, you don't sound like my Quad ESL's).Yesterday, I walked into my favorite audio shop that sells a lot of used gear. Lo and behold, sitting by the front door was these used "Braun" ESL 57's, eccept they were Quad ESL 57's. On the backside label was written, "made in Germany", -now go figure, it was a surprise to me.
Early Red Rose amps were versions of Audioprism designs. ML bought out Audioprism. Note that Audioprism wasn't still selling the amps at a lower price. Also note that improvements were said to have been made. In addition, Audioprism never really did that well. If ML needs to raise prices in order to keep making the things or distribute them better, that's OK in my book.
There was several posts this week from owners of AudioPrism gear and they all backed the fact that there were major improvements in the Red Rose version. I personally don't own any of the gear and have not made any comparisons.
Perhaps you could provide some of the documentation that you demand from others!Dave
.............Perhaps you could provide some of the documentation that you demand from others.................
This is the closest this thread has come, as to evidence.
regards rod
But entirely illogical.However, if Levinson can take a box or "inferior" components and fill them with "superior" components and raise the price, more power to him. That is like taking a Toyota Camry, and putting Toyota/Lexus 300 engine, tranny and suspension in it, isn't it?
Dave
That is like taking a Toyota Camry, and putting Toyota/Lexus 300 engine, tranny and suspension in it, isn't it?Now you have got it............well done.
They don't sell the Aristo in Australia. They don't sell the Aristo in the States. So in our countries it isn't a rebadged Toyota. They don't sell the Lexus in Japan. They sell a Toyota Aristo. Why? Because in Japan they have no stigma attached to paying lots of money for a Toyota Aristo, instead of buying a Merc etc. In the States & down here when you spend them big bucks you want some prestige (like owning a ML product) & there Aint no prestige in owning a car called a Toyota so they sell us Lexus. We all know it's a bleeding Toyota, But it's very different to any Toyota in the States or down here, Hence we don't call it a rebadged Toyota. Can we start a car forum?
regards rod
Looks like we can all read about it in the run up to Chistmas.
Follow Fisherman's link to Audio Oasis (Canada) for Korsun availability, but looks like the price is $395 US. There WERE several of these amps on Audiogon (offered by Audio Oasis).Rob Doorack suggested that the $395 on Audio Oasis' site MIGHT be Canadian and therefore a great deal, but it looks like it's US dollars--the Antique Sound Labs monoblocks for $439 on the site are offered "Buy it Now" on eBay for $449 with no mention of Canadian $$.
Still, $1605 cheaper than a Rosette.Bruce
see link
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