|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
In Reply to: Re: More than one issue, here. posted by Pat D on January 24, 2001 at 18:34:47:
yeah, after 8 years of Clinton, I'm quite familiar with mind games and what 'is' is game. GMAB.
Follow Ups:
That's not an argument Rod. That's just labelling.Funny you don't jump on Cutthroat for using the same terminology . . .
If you want to put inherent human tendencies, social pressures, and so on under the category of imagination, you go right ahead.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
Yeah, maybe, but you're being complete disingenuious. You said people just imagined it and then you said that it was not imagined, but only in their minds. I'm calling you on it because you playing word games. Read what you said, it's all there in black and white.
You know, cyclic debates with a robot.You don't get to post enough, no reason to revisit a discussion line you have seen several thousand times before. If you get that hankering, just think orange! Its a 24/7 type activity in orange land.
Yup, I woke up this morning......Is that the same tune on the radio?
I look out the window......same paperboy petaling down the street.
Noooooooo, it's Groundhog Day!
The contrast is between what is due to the human subject and what is due to the equipment, Rod. Imagination doesn't cut it, Rod.I'm sorry you don't understand the issues involved.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
> > The contrast is between what is due to the human subject and what is due to the equipment, Rod. < <Is it, Pat? Or is it purely an issue of perception and its influence on preference? Think about it.
Best Wishes,
Felix
That's another issue, and thankfully, a substantive one.Rod is trying to saddle me with the silly position that perceiving differences where there are none, or that are too small to actually distinguish, is the same as imagining them. And, he's not taking "No" for an answer.
Not only can perception influence preference, but it also seems that preference can influence perception. You think about it.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
> > That's another issue, and thankfully, a substantive one. < <Actually, it's the same issue; you just have to look past your blinders. That's why I asked you to think about it.
> > Rod is trying to saddle me with the silly position that perceiving differences where there are none, or that are too small to actually distinguish, is the same as imagining them. < <
Err...that's what you said, isn't it?
> > Not only can perception influence preference, but it also seems that preference can influence perception. < <
Of course, Pat! If an individual perceives a difference, than in turn that difference becomes very real, not imagined as you claimed, whether it exists on a purely sonic level or not.
> > You think about it. < <
LOL!
Best Wishes,
Felix
Two comments:1) Mind and imagination are not the same term. Mind is a more general term than imagination.
2) I have always agreed with the substance of your statement:
"Of course, Pat! If an individual perceives a difference, than in turn that difference becomes very real, not imagined as you claimed, whether it exists on a purely sonic level or not."
I have no idea why you 'imagine' I think otherwise. Indeed, this is integral to my position. You are not telling me anything new.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
> > Mind and imagination are not the same term. Mind is a more general term than imagination. < <If something occurs solely in one's mind, how is that not one's imagination at work? TIA
Best Wishes,
Felix
As I said, we have used the term to make a distinction between what is belongs to the human subject, this is precisely as a knowing and desiring subject, and the equipment (and environment).
Our external and somatic senses are not imagination.
Illusions are not imagination.
Expectations are not imagination.
Social pressures are not imagination, though internalized.
Habits are not imagination.
Moods are not imagination.
Emotions are not imagination.
Feelings are not imagination.
A predisposition to prefer what is louder is not imagination.
A predisposition to choose between different things is not imagination.
In some uses, intellect is not imagination.
And so on.Nevertheless, these are usually classed as mental. And, they can affect how we perceive high fidelity equipment and a lot of other things.
I have no wish to impose a particular philosophical psychology on you, such as that of Aristotle or Merleau-Ponty, but there are a whole host of functions and activities to be accounted for.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
> > snip < <It seems that your definition of imagination differs from those who read and understand English.
http://www.thesaurus.com/roget/IV/515.html
This should cover every mildly relevant example you posted.
You wrote:
"So, without more objective proof, the most probable explanation is that most of it is in the mind. So, yes, burn-in exists, but mostly in the mind."i·mag·i·na·tion (i-maje-na'shen) n.
1.The formation of a mental image of something that is neither perceived as real nor present to the senses.2.The mental image so formed.
I really do not like to argue semantics, Pat. Whether you meant to say something else, or chose your words improperly is only known to you. This is either a case of you failing to grasp the thrust of your own position, or perhaps you simply have not thought it through in enough detail.
Best Wishes,
Felix
I think Pat is trying to differentiate the term "imagination" and the phrase "in your mind" in that imagination is that which forms a new idea and "in your mind" is misinterpreting sensory information. I think his point lacks any pragmatic value for this discussion as both phrases have the same connotative meaning to 99.999% of the english speaking population of the world (hence the thesaurus entry). Like what was expressed earlier, it's fodder for the philosophers and not for the 'philes.Now I'm going to heat my tube amps up, laugh at philosophy, and writhe in my ignorance with a big shit-eating grin,
Tom §.
> > > > Our external and somatic senses are not imagination.
Illusions are not imagination.
Expectations are not imagination.
Social pressures are not imagination, though internalized.
Habits are not imagination.
Moods are not imagination.
Emotions are not imagination.
Feelings are not imagination.
A predisposition to prefer what is louder is not imagination.
A predisposition to choose between different things is not imagination.
In some uses, intellect is not imagination.
> >and yet imagination makes all those traits possible.
Without imagination, we are andriods.Adi
Our different cognitive and affective powers (this includes choice in my view) work together in different ways.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
I think (at least in my mind) what's at issue is your statement:> >
perceiving differences where there are none, or that are too small to actually distinguish
< <That reads to me that you're claiming:
Burn-in does not exist as an objective phenomemon apart from a subject's perception of burn-in or, if it does, we cannot actually perceive it because it is so subtle.
Which, to just about anybody other than a trained philosopher, is really stating that burn-in is all in the mind, or the imagination.
The little voices told me that soap is the hallmark of civilization.
Notice even you have to say mind or imagination, which implies that they may not be the same thing. They certainly are not the same word, and mind seems is the more general term.Now, if we want to talk about "disingenuous," as Rod M. does, thus showing he can spell the big word, let's look at some usage in this thread. Cut-Throat introduced the term "mind" into the discussion, and he/she obviously did not mean imagination by it:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/101144.html
"I don't believe it's audible expect maybe speakers (but that's a stretch too) The only burning in that is happening is in the mind.
I believe that last meal you just had affects the sound more than anything that can be done to a cable. "
And I said in a reply:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/101268.html
"A day at work, come home dehydrated, and the system sounds lousy. A good drink of water, a nice meal, time to relax, and the system sounds great."
From this, one would conclude that Cut-Throat and I believe that physical conditions in the body are one thing that could influence what we hear--one thing that by no means comes under the term imagination. Therefore, neither of us could possibly consider mind and imagination to be equivalent terms in the context of this discussion. But that just isn't good enough for Rod M., Fear3000 and now maybe you.
I do not have to deny, and do not in fact deny, that at different times people are subjectively hearing something different, not to mention noticing something different, even though the equipment and program material or test signal has not changed. In fact, I think our hearing changes quite often. Indeed, many people here say that sometimes their systems sound different to them than at other times.
It seems as if Rod M, Fear3000, and apparently you, have decided that there are only a few positions possible, and find it hard to conceive of any other possible positions. Therefore, you try to fit my position into some pre-existing matrix of permitted positions. This is, in fact, a fairly natural tendency, but it is not reasonable.
BWT, I do not think that ordinary language usage is designed to deal with these sorts of problems.
____________________________________________________________
"A dry soul is wisest and best."
--Heraclitus, trans. Wheelwright
MIND: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills and esp. reasonsPERCEIVE: to become aware of through the senses
IMAGINE: to form a mental image of something not present
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: