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There have , already , been several music/concert discs released with Dolby TrueHD audio .In February , as I have previously posted in DVD-Audiobahn , a Nine Inch Nails music/concert disc will be released with 48/24 multichannel Dolby TrueHD audio .
For people not interested in Dolby TrueHD , I offer 2 suggestions :
1. Don't read the Dolby TrueHD discussion topics posted in DVD-Audiobahn .
2. Don't post anything in the threads appearing in DVD-Audiobahn that contain discussions about Dolby TrueHD .
Dolby TrueHD should be discussed in DVD-Audiobahn .
ZS KEKL
Follow Ups:
I agree with KEKL.Whether Dolby TrueHD or another DVD-based format will ever become a hi-res audio format offered in the marketplace is an open question....But it is a question that is of interest to me and clearly, to others who use this forum as a conduit for information about new technology. Yes this is a forum that has been set for discussion about DVD-A. However, there is little downside to broadening the scope of this forum and much upside. Let’s look at some of Racerguy’s complaints.
1) I don’t want to wade through lot of posts about video: This forum is pretty much dead. You have to go all the way back to September to get into Archived Post. I doubt anyone is going to be wading though anything.
2) These are video formats: At present that is correct. But they have a lot of potential for high resolution audio, Many DVD-A’s have bonus videos. Should we eliminate those DVD-A’s from discussion as well?
3) There are going to be format wars: This is unlikely. There aren’t any audio releases to fight over. The HDDVD/Blu-Ray Battle will be fought over in the Video forum. For audio these formats are about potential and it is that potential that many of us are interested in.
4) Where will those who want to discuss DVD-A go? This comment confuses me because I do not see how expanding the forum to include new DVD based formats prevents anyone from discussing DVD-A. No one has proposed deleting or limiting discussion about DVD-A. In fact everyone concerned would like to see more discussion about DVD-A
So how do you increase this discussion? By getting more people to participate in the forum! We might actually get some of the video guys, who are interested in these formats to join in discussions about the audio parameters. While they are here they may learn about and participate in discussions about DVD-A. A forum such as this is benefited by being inclusive – not exclusive.
I believe that Chris, the moderator, is a fair and honest guy. So far he has heard from one person on this issue. Racerguy has a strong opinion on this issue and while I respect his opinion; I disagree with it. If you disagree with him as I do, I suggest that you contact Chris directly, via e-mail, to register that disagreement.
I would also ask those who post on this forum to state whether they agree or disagree with KEKL’s assertion that its mission should be broadened to include all MLP-based audio formats.
> > So far he has heard from one person on this issue. Racerguy has a strong opinion on this issue < <Pacman, this is nonsense.
Yes, I do have a strong opinion on this issue, as do others. I am not the only one who thinks the DVD-AUDIO forum ought to remain focused on DVD-Audio. Read the posts. Note who has said what. Chris has not heard from just one person - he obviously read the threads, which included your opinion and the opinions of others, so he's seen the views of everyone who has made their view known.
Trying to claim that that I'm somehow calling the shots here is laughable, and quite wrong. Your entire argument is weakened by making such statements.
if not more, than the posts against it, which honestly is mostly you.In a typical forum, only a subset is of interest to most readers/posters. Expecting it to conform to only YOUR interests seems selfish to me.
I "might" have a different opinion if this format was more actively discussing "current" DVD-Audio technology (though to be honest, the current direction is in fact next gen DVDs), however I believe if there were still as many participants in this forum as there used to be, they would probably be discussing this derivative technology quite actively.
Well, I tried to get ZS to post about equipment, which certainly seems relevant, at least to me, and I got zero back.I'm not a fan of further diluting the content of this forum. If it dies, it should do so because the format is no longer of interest (note that a "dead" format like vinyl has one of the most active fora around...). Keeping the name and the place alive by broadening into video just doesn't seem right. Just my opinion...
Cheerio!
Just because a hi-rez audio recording has the video included does not mean the emphasis is not on the music.
The items in question are VIDEOS that happen to have near-high-rez included. That makes it a video.These are not DVD-As with a video "extra."
Come on guys, quit the nit-picking shit. If discussion is limited to strictly DVD-A, we will soon not have anything to discuss.
That is perhaps the major issue with this forum.Regarding "turning the TV off," I'm one of those dinosaurs who refuses to have a TV anywhere near my audio system. Because of the absurdity of the DVD-A menu scenario, I've been forced to add a mini flat screen, but it sits out of sight. I imaginre that I'm not alone in enjoying my music without visuals...
Maybe this is a bad attitude to have, but I believe the Forum ought to survive on its own merits or die.
> Because of the absurdity of the DVD-A menu scenarioand another statment from related post:
> If it dies, it should do so because the format is no longer of interest
Based on such statements, it is obvious that you are biased again DVD-Audio. So why do you come to this forum at all and argue against what people who are actually interested in this technology should talk about?
Perhaps DVD-Audio are of interest to people who like to have somethihng extra when they buy an album? I like SACD, but I always have fealt that DVD-Audio was more appropriate for pop music, simply because I enjoy the videos that often come with them as extras, or being able to read the lyrics, or other documentaries. Such extras are not as much of interest to Classical music listeners, IMO.
However, in next-gen music albums the lines will be even muddier. Since there is no limitation to still images with our hi-rez music tracks, in the future once the technology ios widespread enough, video content will become the norm as part of the music tracks. It will allow the artists to add an additional dimension to the music and add value to the purchase. Even this capability may be of more interest to classical listeners, I would love to be able to listen to Beethoven's Choral Symphony in Hi-rez audio AND watch the performance at the same time.
Such things will become the norm in the future, even if that is years away.
Let's start with the first quote of mine that you reference: The fact that I find the video menu completely ridiculous has absolutely nothing to do with whether I am for or against the quality of audio I get from my many DVD-A discs. I dislike the requirement for a screen of any trype to be part of my AUDIO system. I keep audio and video separate, which is my prerogative. I am certainly allowed to dislike something that challenges my enjoyment.Regarding the second quote with which you seem to have an issue: I was referring to the Forum dying from lack of interest, not the format. I believe that was extremely clear.
Your accusation that I have a bias against DVD-A and should therefore not hang out here is ludicrous, and represents one of the big problems with our hobby: even the slightest criticism is perceived as an afront worthy of a duel.
I certainly have my preferences as to formats. However, the fact that I prefer analogue to digital doesn't mean I'm biased against DVD-A, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm one of the SACD fans coming here to rattle sabers. I listen to all of them, first because its about the MUSIC and then because I'm able.
If you would step back from your frustration over the moderator's decision, you might see how inherently destructive it is to suggest to someone who enjoys his music on DVD-A (me) that he should go elsewhere. This Forum needs to gain participants, not to chase them away. Your defensiveness and ZS's aggressiveness serve the former.
I also have an issue with it being necessary (and I emphasize NECESSARY) to turn the tv on, I agree it should be optional. HOWEVER, many of the newer releases on DVD-Audio will automatically start playback of the music using the settings of choice, it is unfortunate that many (but not all) of the earlier releases did not do the same, however I feel that they have learned from that mistake and hopefully will apply it in the future.However, when you want interactivity, or want to access additional features, then the menus are indispensable. This is an important part of DVD-Audio, without that there is no need for DVD-Audio over SACD, for example. So my comment stands, speaking out against the capability to offer interactivity and also preferring the format die rather than allowing those who interested to follow where the technology goes, shows that you are not interested in what this technology has to offer, hence my earlier comment in this thread.
I am not saying you shouldn't read the forum, since I understand that you, like me, are interested in the hi-rez music experience no matter what the source, which is as it should be. However, since you are not really interested in the additional capabilities that DVD-Audio offers over traditional playback mechanisms, such as offered by SACD, this leads me to question why you feel it necessary to argue against allowing others to discuss these technology directions?
You state: "speaking out against the capability to offer interactivity and also preferring the format die rather than allowing those who interested to follow where the technology goes, shows that you are not interested in what this technology has to offer"Please show me where I stated that I prefferred that the format die?? My comments were directed to the FORUM, not the FORMAT. Different things. If the FORUM can't sustain itself due to lack of interest, then, yes, in my opinion I'd rather see it die than to be corrupted by all the other peripheral digital formats that have been tossed around here in the past year or two (remember ZS's obsession with DualDisc?). Now as to "speaking out against" something: I dislike having to use a monitor to access a simple "play from the beginning" command. That's hardly talking about all the other stuff one can get with DVD-A, which, as I stated emphatically before, I'm not interested in. Doesn't mean I'm speaking out against it, it just means I'm not interested. This leads to my next point:
You state: "However, when you want interactivity, or want to access additional features, then the menus are indispensable. This is an important part of DVD-Audio, without that there is no need for DVD-Audio over SACD, for example."
You couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion. There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference in SOUND between DVD-A and SACD. On many recordings I own on SACD, there is an audible upper frequency "hash" that drives me nuts. I wish I had menu-free DVD-As of those titles. I bought a universal player because 1) I have a lot of redbook (2000 titles), a lot of jazz and classical I like is on SACD, which I prefer by a wide margin over redbook, and I have many DVD-As of more contemporary music that sounds fabulous. My choice of DVD-A over SACD has to do with SOUND, and my choice of SACD over DVD-A happens when the DVD-A doesn't exist, which is quite often.
You state: "However, since you are not really interested in the additional capabilities that DVD-Audio offers over traditional playback mechanisms, such as offered by SACD, this leads me to question why you feel it necessary to argue against allowing others to discuss these technology directions?"
Me arguing against it is just as valid as you choosing to argue for it. I participate here, as you do as well. Therefore, my opinion exists out there with as much weight as yours. This means absolutely nothing, as this is not a democracy, and the Moderators may choose as they like. However, just because I disagree with YOU doesn't mean I'm at odds with the entire Forum. And frankly, the "additional capabilities that DVD-Audio offers over traditional playback mechanisms" are video-based: this is the "-Audio" part of the DVD world, not the video part, which you can get elsewhere on this site. I'm interested in the Audio part and the Audio part alone.
I'm not trying to force my point of view on the rest of the Forum, but I am registering an opposing view to yours, when you claimed that only racerguy wanted to keep this Forum video-free. (I'm in that group too.) You, however, by suggesting that I move on, are trying to force your view on others, and that does only damage the tiny support system that higher resolutions have.
You are arguing your personal preferences while I am arguing that discussions should be allowed to be broader because it is of more interest to this community than it is for others.However, at this point we are really arguing in circles, so for now I am not going to pursue it anymore. Not that I won't argue for it if it comes up in the future, just that it seems futile to pursue it more at this point.
Also, just the lack of others participating in this discussion besides some initial posts shows that the interest is not really there for now.
!
There's the rub. Very rarely do I want any visuals with my music, and I sure don't want to pay for it - and I don't want it "included" in the price.
Regards,
Geoff
When I am enjoying the album I usually don't look at the accompanying slides - though I sometimes read the lyrics on the screen.However, with next gen, they can and probably will replace the slides with less static video. However, just like with the slides, it is an extra which can be watched or not, depending on your preferences. It would certainly be no worse than with current DVD-Audios.
> > Expecting it to conform to only YOUR interests seems selfish to me. < <Indeed. So why are you still whining about Chris' decision? Why are you having a hissy fit over my opinion? Seems pretty selfish to me.
As I said to Pacman, I don't call the shots around here. I can offer an opinion, same as you can. Whatever policy is implemented is up to the moderators. I am not a moderator. I don't always agree with some of the policy decisions made, but I accept them, because it's not my forum. Unlike you, I don't piss and moan for a whole day because an AA moderator made a decision I don't like. This isn't a democracy, and I don't expect it to be one. I certainly didn't see Chris asking for votes on the subject.
If it makes you feel better to paint me as your personal nemesis on this issue, have at it. It's silly to do so, but that is your prerogative.
I am giving feedback to the moderator through the forum, as are others. I looked through your history of posts and an inordinate amount of them are complaints about what you think is out of place. I am honestly not even sure why you care, maybe that is simply what you do.These discussions are a natural evolution of past discussions which existed in this forum, even if most of those discussions have become a thing of the past.
The whiners from the Hi-rez forum are controlling what content can be discussed on this forum.
Seems to me that it is ZS KEKL who essentially controls the content, as he is the most prolific poster. I don't see too many High-Rez folk starting threads, just responding to some.Too bad that ZS's "announcements" seem to be all there is.
you spend more time bitchin' and moanin' about this or that than you do actually talking about DVDA/DD software/hardware.When we start getting TruHD albums only, then we can include them here in the future. If the main characteristic of the disc is to watch moving pictures on a TV screen or monitor, it should be discussed either in the MUSIC or VIDEO Asylums.
Chris
Have you read my responses to the good Doctor? I've been trying to get to some content myself. That includes equipment for DVD-A as well.Then again, what's the point?
I can see that you want to keep it DVDA, maybe it was Pacman who wants to take the shotgun approach?Sorry.
Personally, I don't have an issue with TruHD being discussed here when and if they start releasing MUSIC albums on the format. As it stands now, Concert videos w/HiRez seem to me to be more Video oriented, rather then purely musical, ah-la SACD, DVDA and DD.
Chris
I would ask rather which audience is more likely to interested in discussing the hi-rez capability and quality of these concert releases.A video forum is of course interested in good quality audio, but the emphasis is on the video, and discussions of titles targeted at hi-rez audiences, such as these concert albums that are being discussed are of secondary interest to such a group. I do in fact belong to HD video discussion groups, and though they do discuss TrueHD and audio qualite, there is pretty much zero interest in the releases aimed at the music market, such as these concerts. When it comes to releases, they are much more likely to discuss the next great movie coming out in HD. This is why I don't feel that video forums are the proper venue for such discussions.
Since we are heading into a richer multimedia future, I think you need to understand that the line between the two formats will become fuzzier as we move forward, so the target audience needs to be taken into consideration not just the included mediums.
!!
You have already made it 100% clear that you are not interested in anything DVD-Audio has to offer beyond the music. However, this is a distinct forum from the Hi-rez Highway for more than one reason, because some are interested in richer media experience that is still oriented towards hi-rez audio.That is what one of things that is special with DVD-Audio, that it can offer more than that. And next generation music albums can potentially offer even richer experiences. Video has been cited as the distinguihing difference, but why should future music releases not enhance an album with more than just static images if they are able?
I think the distinction is who is the target audience for a release, not what additional capabilities such a release might have. Should future generation albums restrict themselves from having a video component, creating a fuller multi-media experience to make such as you happy?
You have said in a recent post that you don't like dealing with menus and such (even though this is not necessarily a requirement for albums put together right), but that you deal with it because ultimately it is the music you are interested in. In that case, are you not interested in live performances with hi-rez audio obviously geared to discerning listeners? If you are interested in the music, as you say, then I don't see why the video component should annoy you more than the static video component included on DVD-A. It is still your choice to watch it or not.
DVD-A was designed from the get-go to offer a more multimedia experience than what is offered by traditional albums. New generation technologies expands on that capability.
My last post on the matter."However, this is a distinct forum from the Hi-rez Highway for more than one reason, because some are interested in richer media experience that is still oriented towards hi-rez audio."
Yes, operative word being "some" (are interested. Others are not. DVD-A SOUNDS different than SACD.
"Video has been cited as the distinguihing
difference, but why should future music releases not enhance an album with more than just static images if they are able?'I don't want static images either. I listen. When I go to a concert, I close my eyes.
"Should future generation albums restrict themselves from having a video component, creating a fuller multi-media experience to make such as you happy?"No, it needn't restrict itself at all, but it should be discussed in the Video forum where that it is the focus.
"...you don't like dealing with menus and such (even though this is not necessarily a requirement for albums put together right), but that you deal with it because ultimately it is the music you are interested in. In that case, are you not interested in live performances with hi-rez audio obviously geared to discerning listeners?"Of course I'm interested in it. My interest in music has nothing to do with my abhorence of having a video monitor in my audio system.
"If you are interested in the music, as you say, then I don't see why the video component should annoy you more than the static video component included on DVD-A. It is still your choice to watch it or not."No, you don't seem to understand this very simple idea: no monitor means it is hard to get to the music. I don't want staic images either. Why is this so hard to understand?
There are topics of interest other than KEKL's posts, but the moderators apparently feel that they need to be heavy handed about other types of related discussions. So of course there isn't much of other interest.Yes, at the moment KEKL is the primary contibutor - but he actually does contribute information. The members who attack him do so because they think it is some form of game (by their own admission), but that seems to be ok with the moderators.
One of the reasons is that MLP technology is heading in new directions, and that is what this forum should also be about, especially when the discussion is on the audio component.
Hi-rez releases of Live concerts is more relevant to members of this forum, IMO, than they are to members of the Video forum. I listened to the Heart concert yesterday and it was unquestionable hi-rez audio, even if the mixes were muddy as is often the case with live concerts - but even with those there were excellent moments in that concert.
The fact that it also contains stunning video of the band playing that music does not stop the fact that the music is what is of interest to members of this forum.
Sorry if I did, I've been on vacation. Could you explain to me what happened?Even if I did miss something (and I apologize to you if I did), I still don't understand even the idea of a war between format proponents at this stage in the (non)development of high resolution formats. Just seems incredibly short-sighted and inevitably self-destructive (sort of like nuclear war).
A thread about video players was moved to the Video Asylum, and Dr. Octo seems to be quite upset over this.
MLP is for audio purposes and even if it is part of an AV package, AV also includes Audio, therefore discussions on the hi-rez Audio portion and harware related to it should be allowed on this forum.You apparently think there are way too many threads to weed through in this forum and could not stand discussions related to new MLP capable hardware devices.
http://www.videoasylum.com/ht/messages/24034.html
and I come down on the side of the move.At one point, you stated that you were interested in all high resolution formats, and that's why you think MLP ought to be a part of the DVD-Audiobahn. Well, if that's the case, then SACD should be part of this Forum too. Oops, we all know where that got us.
Can I play this new stuff on my DVD-A player? No? Then it doesn't belong here...
Both DVD-Audio and TrueHD are derived from MLP. SACD is an entirely different technology (which I also support), but since they were competing with each technology wise, it made some sense to break them up - though since they both give great hi-rez audio, I personally feel that they could have stayed together.However, there is no such war between DVD-Audio and TrueHD, in fact one is the technological successor to the other. Because of that succession, it makes sense to me that it is of interest to some of us on this forum - and lets face it, not all discussions are of interest to everybody so if some like Racerguy can't countenance any variation in the discussions on this forum, he has the choice to skip over them.
Will a DVD-audio player decode Dolby True HD? Isn't that the criteria for this forum?
He has his own rules. Unfortunately until the moderators do something about it (as I've noted before) he will continue to post about Dolby True HD, DualDisc (even if no DVD-A content) and multiple posts about the same release, etc. It may be appropriate with the NIN concert coming to Blu-Ray and HD DVD at the end of Feb. with 48/24 all the way around to have a forum dedicated to that as who knows Dolby True HD might be something more hi-rez music only gets released on. We have separate asylums for SACD, DVD-A, Vinyl, etc. so why not.
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