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In Reply to: let's try to understand the point (even though we're way off track now) posted by evector on September 18, 2005 at 17:58:28:
*** you already have access to an LPCM 2.0 track from the DVD-A side of the disc, yet you're frustrated that you can't access a separate, but probably identical, LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of that same disc. ***the disc back cover advertises "2 high resolution stereo tracks", so i'm not sure these are identical - would be interesting to do a bit by bit comparison.
there's a possibility that the LPCM track on the DVD-Video section may not be watermarked, if so then yes, i would be frustrated at not being able to access it easily.
*** that would be a DVD-V player with an audio selection button. ;) ***
No, you are still not listening, or evading the issue. We are specifically talking about the ability of a player to switch between DVD-Video and DVD-Audio content on the same disc, without using a display. That would NOT be using an audio selection button.
*** if the DVD-V side audio content is referenced by a DVD-A group ***
According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced. Personally, I'm not sure, I thought it was possible too, but then I defer to Neil since he authors DVD-A for a living!
Follow Ups:
Can someone please post here with exactly what the question is, as I would like to dive in here & try to clarify the situation.Seems there are crossed lines, and I don't want to write anything until I know the exact original question.
Neil, the question is:can a DVD-Audio/Video disc be authored in such way where for example 2ch LPCM audio content is accessible by both DVD-A and DVD-V players WITHOUT duplicating this audio content in both VIDEO_TS & AUDIO_TS directories? (such that the DVD-A side of the disc is "referencing" the audio content from the DVD-V side of the disc)
if this disc were played in a DVD-Audio player, the disc would be recognized as a DVD-A disc even though there is no audio content (per above) in the AUDIO_TS directory (although there is other minimal content in the AUDIO_TS directory).
Yes, it is possible to do this.
You need a DVD-A authoring application that is capable of linking into an imported Video_TS folder though. I know of 2 that can do this - Sonic's DVD-Audio Creator and Minnetonka's discWelder Chrome.The way it is authored is quite simple:
1/. Create your Video_TS folder in a DVD-V authoring application - ideally one that does not use an Abstraction layer. For PC you can use either DVD Lab Pro & Sonic Scenarist. You may be able to get away with a prosumer application as long as the title is kept very simple as there are some restrictions imposed on a Video_TS for import into DVD-A discs.
If anyone is interested in this list, drop me a private email and I will happily send a copy.
2/. When the Video_TS is completed, Launch the DVD-A app and continue. I use Chrome, Build 2.0.24 so these guides apply to this application. I do not know how Sonic's DVD-A creator handles this.
Anyway - this is how it is done:
A/. Create a new project in Chrome.
B/. Double click on the album title in the arrange window. This will bring up the project properties. Set your TV standard as required, and then you will see a tab for Video_TS - choose to use an imported one, and browse to this.
C/. In Group 1, create your 5.1 MLP version.
D/. Add in another group.
E/. Right click on the time, and choose the correct VTS.There is a further restriction here imposed by Chrome, sadly. Although the rules say you can have up to 2 Audio streams per VTS, Chrome can only link directly to the whole VTS, and not to an individual stream. This is going to change in the next version though.
But - you definitely do not need to duplicate the 24/96 file in the Audio_TS.
Personally, I think it is a bad plan to use a 24/96 in a DVD-V title, simply because so many players will truncate it down to 16 bit and further decimate down to 48KHz. Having said that though, as long as your DVD-V authoring application can handle a 24/96 file, there is no reason why it cannot be in the Video_TS and referenced from the AMG.
In fact, the spec book clearly says that(From section AU8-1 in the spec book:)
"Every Title by each VTS in DVD-Video zone of DVD-Audio disc shall be
pointed by ATT Search Pointer Table (ATT_SRPT) in Audio Manager (AMG)."So, any Video_TS content really should be accessible from the AMG of the DVD-A player without having to reset the player to DVD-Video mode.
Sadly, Warners do not seem to author their discs correctly at all, and most of the time the Video_TS content is not accessible. This is bad authoring.
I have a great example - the K.D. Laing disc, Invincible Summer, says on the box it has a 24/96 Surround track and a 24/96 Stereo track.
It does not! There is a single MLP stream on the disc, so if there is a stereo version it is either an embedded one or else a downmix. It sounds like a downmix to me.But I'm rambling on again, and should perhaps shut up.
demonstrating what you are talking about and make it available for download? You could try using dummy content - say a sine wave for a few seconds.When I tried that in Chrome, it created a duplicate (ie. imported the content into .AOB instead of linking to the VTS). It's quite obvious when you look at the file sizes in AUDIO_TS vs VIDEO_TS. I was using an old version though.
I don't see why not.
It may take me a few days to actually get around to doing it though - I'm seriously busy at the moment (not a complaint!).What version were you using?
When I still ran version 1, there was beta code that allowed linking into imported VTS from Group 1 only, and it was a little buggy.
I'm running build 2.0.24 now, and from looking at the disc usage I can see it is not adding into the Audio_TS fileset.
When importing the Video_TS, that adds to the disc usage - of course - and then the other content adds to that figure.I'll set up a disc with exactly this content & see.
Incidentally - what other content is in the Video_TS? Just a 24/96 LPCM track or extra DTS/Dolby Digital material? You can link to all of them - and to satisfy strict specs, you should do!In answer to another question, I am not sure what would happen if linking to the 24/96 LPCM from the AMG - and not having any further content included - would do.
I assume that as the menu structure is in the Audio_TS the disc would load as a DVD-A disc, but there would be precious little point in making such a disc.
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> > "According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced."according to Neil from the referenced post:
"All the DVD-V content is fully accessible from the DVD-A manager if the disc is correctly authored ..."
- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=dvda&n=17416&highlight=Neil+Wilkes&r=&session= (Open in New Window)
... you will notice that Neil was referring to "importing" DVD-Video content into DVD-Audio, and that is what he means by "correctly authored". In another post, he clarified that this actually means duplicating the content.I thought, like you, it *was* possible to simply reference, or link into the content to avoid duplication, but I must admit I have not seen any authoring tool that does this. Maybe it needs mucking around with the UDF directory structure, but they are different files (.VOB vs .AOB) so it's more than creating the equivalent of a "symbolic link."
> > ... you will notice that Neil was referring to "importing" DVD-Video content into DVD-Audio, < <I think confusion is arising. In short, there's no way that he means "importing" a second copy onto the disc itself. During playback, the DVD-A manager can link into the DVD-V content, without having to duplicate it on the disc.
> > "According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced. Personally, I'm not sure, I thought it was possible too, but then I defer to Neil since he authors DVD-A for a living!"pick up any of the Hi-Res Music discs
I looked at the link, and they seem to sell dual sided discs (like Classic HDADs).What has that to do with referencing/linking to DVD-V content from DVD-A menu?
these discs are authored as you suggest they can't be authored (e.g., DVD-A side accessing DVD-V content). if and/when you pick one up, take a look at its directory content.
Think about it.
the majority of these discs are single sided discs. i own a handful of them (which is why i mentioned Leon Russell). even the dual-sided disc, such as Soular Energy, the DVD-V side which is 96/24 (the other side btw is 192/24 LPCM!) is actually a DVD-A disc with 96/24 LPCM content in the VIDEO_TS directory and reference data in the AUDIO_TS directory. DVD-Audio player recognizes the 96/24 side as a DVD-A disc.
... in particular there is no evidence that the content is "referenced" as you say rather than duplicated. If you could actually list the structure of the .IFS files and prove that they are indeed references I could perhaps agree.I agree that it would be nice if DVD-A can simply link to DVD-V content rather than duplicate, but just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's possible.
> > "... in particular there is no evidence that the content is "referenced" as you say rather than duplicated."nor do you have any evidence to the contrary.
what you do have is a reference to software that i believe is authored as discussed. pick up a sample, analyze it and draw your own conclusions.
since you're the one who's desperate to prove something, the onus is on you to supply evidence. so far you haven't.remember, all along i said i would like to believe it's true, but have been told it's not, so i'm looking for evidence. don't ask me to "pick up samples" of discs i have no intention of buying, because frankly, if you have the disc, you analyse it and tell me.
just trying to be helpful by pointing out disc titles that i believe demonstrate the discussed authoring technique. it is your prerogative if you whish to further your investigation by picking up any of these discs.since you still seem to be confused and frustrated over this topic i would suggest we drop it and move on.
*** you still seem to be confused and frustrated ***it seems to me you're the one confused and frustrated, since you've expended a lot of energy trying to prove something. all i'm doing is pointing out flaws in your logic :-)
remember it's *good* practice to make sure DVD-Audio content is a proper superset of DVD-Video content, so at best you are showing an example of a well-authored disc.
now if you were to demonstrate that it would be impossible to fit all the content onto the disc if they were duplicated, that might be something.
why don't you inspect the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories? If the AUDIO_TS directory is a LOT smaller but seems to have the same content, we might be on to something ...
if they are approximately equal in size, then it suggests the content IS duplicated.
... which is why we've been going in circles.
... I've already pointed out, I have nothing to prove or disprove, since I am not advancing an opinion (I said I wasn't sure, remember).On the other hand, you are, so it's up to you to offer proof, which you still haven't.
you may not have noticed my reply to Martin, but i have verified that for the specific disc that we were talking about (the Arts Music one with 2 LPCM 2.0 tracks) the two tracks are physically separate and not links to the one track. This was confirmed by inspecting the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories.So, contrary to your cheap shot, I have provided some data on the specific title that you expressed an opinion in.
Sheesh. Are you and Michi always on the rag?
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