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In Reply to: Re: Thanks posted by Martin419 on September 15, 2005 at 14:13:56:
The user must find the appropriate group/tracks. What the player does is provide a whole bunch of indicators that show which group you're in, and whether the material in that group is quad-rate (176/192), double rate (88.2/96), "regular" rate (44.1/48), or DTS/Dolby Digital, and whether there is video content.If you have some idea of what is supposed to be on the disc, it's (usually) pretty straightforward to find things. If you know where things are, it's easy to go straight to them.
Follow Ups:
What about a 'Group 1' which contains both the stereo and multichannel programs? Does it automatically play the 2-ch and not downmix the 5.1?(I've seen players do this -- e.g. Pioneer & Panny seem to auto-detect the 2-ch PPCM track if it's co-located with the 5.1 on Group 1 -- when player's speaker-setup is 2-ch -- whereas Denon does not.)
> > What about a 'Group 1' which contains both the stereo and multichannel programs? Does it automatically play the 2-ch and not downmix the 5.1? < <
reviewing the manual, it looks like they stopped just short of truly making the DVD-A navigation seamless via the onboard display. they should have added bit-depth and number of active channels indicators.
While it might be nice to have such things, I don't know where the indicators could be located without making the front panel display, and thus the player, much larger. Plus, if having that many indicators is necessary, then it really is a strong indication that DVD-Audio is a user nightmare.AFAIC, there is sufficient information given by the player for me to fumble through most of my relatively small collection of DVD-As. If I needed more data, I would trashcan my DVD-As and give up on the format completely. The beauty of the player is that it doesn't need a monitor, and most DVD-A navigation steps can be done from the front of the player - you don't even need the remote in most cases. That's better than the $20,000 Meridian Reference player, which requires both a monitor and the remote to successfully navigate DVD-As.
> > "... if having that many indicators is necessary, then it really is a strong indication that DVD-Audio is a user nightmare.everyone has a different threshold of pain when it comes to UI (just about any UI).
the manual sums up the format pretty well:
"The DVD-Audio format is extremely flexible and allows for a wide variety of audio formats, including both stereo and multi-channel, each with a multiplicity of available sample rates and resolutions. This increased flexibility necessarily leads to an increased complexity of disc navigation."
> > the manual sums up the format pretty well:"The DVD-Audio format is extremely flexible and allows for a wide variety of audio formats, including both stereo and multi-channel, each with a multiplicity of available sample rates and resolutions. This increased flexibility necessarily leads to an increased complexity of disc navigation." < <
The same person who wrote that statement in the manual also wrote this statement about DVD-A:" If all else fails, one could always write down a pre-determined navigation sequence on the disc's case for reference. It's a silly thing to have to do, but there's not much we can do about this poorly thought out format..."
That's a pretty good summing up of the format as well. :-)
> > " If all else fails, one could always write down a pre-determined navigation sequence on the disc's case for reference. < <I think this is a grossly exaggerated issue. Moreover, it doesn't seem to me that the Ayre does anything special in terms of navigation that other DVD-A players don't already do. (Although I am sure that it's a finer sounding player than most others out there.)
F.W.I.W. I now have about 120 DVD-As (including DualDiscs with DVD-A content) and I can navigate every one easily without the monitor turned on and get to the 2-ch track (where applicable) without getting up from my sofa. In fact, I always play my DVDAs with "Pure Direct" set to turn off all video circuits and there are numerous DVDAs where I've never even seen the menus.
In short, my memory is not so bad that I would ever need to resort to writing a 'cheat card'. ;-)
b.t.w. Importantly for me, I can go directly to any Group, and any Track whilst the disc is playing. i.e. true random access. I don't need to ‘stop’ the disc spinning during play. For example, I use it to A-B compare a hirez 2ch track with its 5.1 counterpart in a matter of seconds.
On my Denon A11 remote, during play I simply press the "Display" button once, then type the Group number and "Enter"; and I then press the "Right" arrow and type Track number (which includes use of the +10 button to get to any track number up to a theoretical 99), then press "Enter". And 'presto': One second later, the machine is playing the desired Track on a different Group. Granted, it’s still manual, but I like it. And it’s totally flexible.
Whilst doing this, I even see the Group and Track selections indicated on the front LED for confirmation. So it’s not even a ‘blind’ process.
Thereafter, during the session, i.e. until I next press "Stop", I do not need to press "Display" again when selecting Groups & Tracks in this way. Of course I do need the remote to do this -- but again, I've never seen that as a problem, especially as it means I do not have to get up from my comfy sofa.
N.B. The Panasonic DVD-A user-interface (with its 'Group' button on the remote) is even simpler than the "no-monitor" process described for the Denon.
In contrast, with SACD on that player, I have to stop the player, go to the front panel, and set the SACD setting to 2ch or multichannel, before I can start the session (i.e. before I insert the disc). That is not flexible: In short, with SACD I cannot do A-B comparisons without getting up from my sofa and stopping everything.
Of course, this is a slight digression, since you are just talking about stereo, but I figured my experience puts DVD-A flexibility & navigation issues into a better perspective.
the difference being is that the first statement is factual. the second, assuming it was said by the same individual who wrote the manual, is an opinion. (everyone's entitled to the latter. ;)
> > the difference being is that the first statement is factual. < <No, it is also a matter of opinion. Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder. You are only claiming the opinion as fact because you agree with it.
the facts and the essence of the referenced statement are: "The DVD-Audio format ... allows for a wide variety of audio formats, including both stereo and multi-channel, each with a multiplicity of available sample rates and resolutions." as such, the number and combination of these mandatory parameters increase the complexity of content navigation. (of course the perceived degree of complexity of content navigation will be driven by each user's "threshold of pain" relative to the UI.)
There's no doubt that the opinion contained some facts/reasonable assumptions - all good opinions do. The conclusion reached is still an opinion.
.
Three days later, you're still spinning around in circles :-)
.
I see you've decided to join the other children and the trolls with some bratty labelling. Why am I not surprised?
evector is emotionally invested in the opinion that DVD-Audio is easy to navigate ("one or two buttons max", remember?)so is very keen on discrediting anyone who holds a different view (ie. "must be the player" or "low threshold of pain").
the moment you quoted that statement about usability from the Ayre manual, you were in trouble. of course, anything that contradicts evector's position must be merely an "opinion", and anything that support it must be factual.
and of course, the moment i mentioned that the Arts Music disc has a separate LPCM track in DVD-Video which his player and your player cannot access, evector launched into this quest to desperately prove that this track is not worth accessing and in any case should be available or "referenced" from the DVD-Audio menu.
evector is now investing a lot of effort in "proving" that not being able to access DVD-Video content is irrelevant, because if it was relevant it destroys the point about easy navigation.
It's quite amusing and comical really. :-) i admit to being very cruel by deliberately teasing evector and saying exactly the right words that sets him/her off on another spin. it's even more fun than teasing Martin, which is a "sport" that i know you and i indulge in :-)
no worries. your reputation for childish and other forms of babbling as well as trolling is uncontested.
*** Why did you decide to go off on this tangent anyway? ***Because you dared to imply that DVD-A Navigation is anything but seamless.
I was trying my best to stay out of this thread, as evector and I have already thrashed this issue before, but I had an interesting experience last night.
After all the discussion about Arts Music SA-CDs in the other forum, I took out my Arts Music DVD-A for Vivaldi's L'Estro Armonico Vol 2 and played it.
In m-ch mode of course, it played fine. I just inserted disc in tray, and pressed Play. The back cover claims there are "2 high resolution stereo channels" so this pique my interest, and I decided to search for them. I was determined NOT use to the video display and see if I can find these just using the remote control and front panel display.
Well, what a journey that turned out to be. My player does not display any information on the current audio track so I was navigating blindly. I first tried the Audio button. Nothing happened, so I guessed the stereo track is not encoded as a parallel track in Group 1.
I tried navigating across Groups. There seems to be six Groups, with the first three containing music. Groups 1 and 2 appear to be m-ch, and Group 3 appears to be 2ch, so it appears I have found one of the audio tracks. I couldn't find any evidence of the second 2ch track.
Finally, after about 15 mins, I gave up, inserted the disc into PowerDVD, and confirmed that Group 1 was MLP 5.1, Group 2 was DD 5.1, and Group 3 was MLP 2.0. There was no way (unlike on your player) I could have verified this without a video display.
The elusive second 2ch track turns out to be a separate LPCM 2.0 96/24 track encoded on the DVD-Video section of the disc. There is of course no way I can access this track without a video display, since I need to go into setup to change the player to read the DVD-Video directory instead of the DVD-Audio directory. And of course, on evector's player, this track would be impossible to navigate to.
After this experience, I tried a second Arts Music disc (Shostakovich Symphonies 5 & 6) which also claimed to have dual 2ch tracks. After an even longer search (which I won't detail for the sake of brevity) I discovered this was another mislabelled disc. There is NO 2ch track on either DVD-Audio or DVD-Video content. Of course, the only way I could confirm was again to insert into PowerDVD.
Oh well, thanks for reminding me how painful DVD-A navigation is :-) I haven't yet copied these two discs onto my HTPC, but I think after last night's experience, I will (or at least, the one with the 2ch tracks).
> > "My player does not display any information on the current audio track so I was navigating blindly."your experience clearly supports my assertion that the ease of navigation without the use of an external display will be determined by two main factors: 1) the player's UI and 2) the user's threshold of pain using that player's UI.
if a player has a poor UI and is missing key status information, such as vital audio track details, your audio content navigation experience will without a doubt be more challenging (as you've described, "navigating blindly.").
solution: a player with a proper UI (including a front panel display clearly communicating all key audio track information).
example: racerguy's new player with a better UI, "Navigation of DVD-As is improved over every other player I've tried/owned so far."
> > "Oh well, thanks for reminding me how painful DVD-A navigation is :-)"
find the right player and the pain goes away. unless of course you enjoy the pain. ;)
The 2nd LPCM 2.0 track is located on the DVD-Video section of the disc. Remember, we've already had a discussion on this, and it took several posts before you even acknowledged what I was talking about?*** find the right player and the pain goes away. ***
I don't know any player that allow a user to navigate to DVD-Video content on a DVD-Audio disc WITHOUT using a display. Do you?
Racerguy's player actually won't be able to access the 2nd LPCM 2.0 track at all. Quote from the manual:
"Only DVD-Audio players can access the audio title set, but nearly all DVD-Audio discs also contain a video title set for backwards
compatibility with DVD-Video players. The Ayre C-5xe will only access the audio title set, ignoring any content in the video title set."
you already have access to an LPCM 2.0 track from the DVD-A side of the disc, yet you're frustrated that you can't access a separate, but probably identical, LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of that same disc.if an identical LPCM 2.0 track exists in both directories (for DVD-V player compatibility) and as long as your DVD-A player has access to a 2.0 hi-resolution track, then mission accomplished. no?
now, i can understand if there is a 2nd unique/different LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of the disc that cannot be accessed by a DVD-A player, then you have a legitimate issue with that disc not allowing you access to all unique/different hi-resolution content that the author intended you to access.
> > "I don't know any player that allow a user to navigate to DVD-Video content on a DVD-Audio disc WITHOUT using a display. Do you?"
that would be a DVD-V player with an audio selection button. ;) and if the DVD-V side audio content is referenced by a DVD-A group, then that content is accessible by a DVD-A player with or without a display.
*** you already have access to an LPCM 2.0 track from the DVD-A side of the disc, yet you're frustrated that you can't access a separate, but probably identical, LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of that same disc. ***the disc back cover advertises "2 high resolution stereo tracks", so i'm not sure these are identical - would be interesting to do a bit by bit comparison.
there's a possibility that the LPCM track on the DVD-Video section may not be watermarked, if so then yes, i would be frustrated at not being able to access it easily.
*** that would be a DVD-V player with an audio selection button. ;) ***
No, you are still not listening, or evading the issue. We are specifically talking about the ability of a player to switch between DVD-Video and DVD-Audio content on the same disc, without using a display. That would NOT be using an audio selection button.
*** if the DVD-V side audio content is referenced by a DVD-A group ***
According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced. Personally, I'm not sure, I thought it was possible too, but then I defer to Neil since he authors DVD-A for a living!
Can someone please post here with exactly what the question is, as I would like to dive in here & try to clarify the situation.Seems there are crossed lines, and I don't want to write anything until I know the exact original question.
Neil, the question is:can a DVD-Audio/Video disc be authored in such way where for example 2ch LPCM audio content is accessible by both DVD-A and DVD-V players WITHOUT duplicating this audio content in both VIDEO_TS & AUDIO_TS directories? (such that the DVD-A side of the disc is "referencing" the audio content from the DVD-V side of the disc)
if this disc were played in a DVD-Audio player, the disc would be recognized as a DVD-A disc even though there is no audio content (per above) in the AUDIO_TS directory (although there is other minimal content in the AUDIO_TS directory).
Yes, it is possible to do this.
You need a DVD-A authoring application that is capable of linking into an imported Video_TS folder though. I know of 2 that can do this - Sonic's DVD-Audio Creator and Minnetonka's discWelder Chrome.The way it is authored is quite simple:
1/. Create your Video_TS folder in a DVD-V authoring application - ideally one that does not use an Abstraction layer. For PC you can use either DVD Lab Pro & Sonic Scenarist. You may be able to get away with a prosumer application as long as the title is kept very simple as there are some restrictions imposed on a Video_TS for import into DVD-A discs.
If anyone is interested in this list, drop me a private email and I will happily send a copy.
2/. When the Video_TS is completed, Launch the DVD-A app and continue. I use Chrome, Build 2.0.24 so these guides apply to this application. I do not know how Sonic's DVD-A creator handles this.
Anyway - this is how it is done:
A/. Create a new project in Chrome.
B/. Double click on the album title in the arrange window. This will bring up the project properties. Set your TV standard as required, and then you will see a tab for Video_TS - choose to use an imported one, and browse to this.
C/. In Group 1, create your 5.1 MLP version.
D/. Add in another group.
E/. Right click on the time, and choose the correct VTS.There is a further restriction here imposed by Chrome, sadly. Although the rules say you can have up to 2 Audio streams per VTS, Chrome can only link directly to the whole VTS, and not to an individual stream. This is going to change in the next version though.
But - you definitely do not need to duplicate the 24/96 file in the Audio_TS.
Personally, I think it is a bad plan to use a 24/96 in a DVD-V title, simply because so many players will truncate it down to 16 bit and further decimate down to 48KHz. Having said that though, as long as your DVD-V authoring application can handle a 24/96 file, there is no reason why it cannot be in the Video_TS and referenced from the AMG.
In fact, the spec book clearly says that(From section AU8-1 in the spec book:)
"Every Title by each VTS in DVD-Video zone of DVD-Audio disc shall be
pointed by ATT Search Pointer Table (ATT_SRPT) in Audio Manager (AMG)."So, any Video_TS content really should be accessible from the AMG of the DVD-A player without having to reset the player to DVD-Video mode.
Sadly, Warners do not seem to author their discs correctly at all, and most of the time the Video_TS content is not accessible. This is bad authoring.
I have a great example - the K.D. Laing disc, Invincible Summer, says on the box it has a 24/96 Surround track and a 24/96 Stereo track.
It does not! There is a single MLP stream on the disc, so if there is a stereo version it is either an embedded one or else a downmix. It sounds like a downmix to me.But I'm rambling on again, and should perhaps shut up.
demonstrating what you are talking about and make it available for download? You could try using dummy content - say a sine wave for a few seconds.When I tried that in Chrome, it created a duplicate (ie. imported the content into .AOB instead of linking to the VTS). It's quite obvious when you look at the file sizes in AUDIO_TS vs VIDEO_TS. I was using an old version though.
I don't see why not.
It may take me a few days to actually get around to doing it though - I'm seriously busy at the moment (not a complaint!).What version were you using?
When I still ran version 1, there was beta code that allowed linking into imported VTS from Group 1 only, and it was a little buggy.
I'm running build 2.0.24 now, and from looking at the disc usage I can see it is not adding into the Audio_TS fileset.
When importing the Video_TS, that adds to the disc usage - of course - and then the other content adds to that figure.I'll set up a disc with exactly this content & see.
Incidentally - what other content is in the Video_TS? Just a 24/96 LPCM track or extra DTS/Dolby Digital material? You can link to all of them - and to satisfy strict specs, you should do!In answer to another question, I am not sure what would happen if linking to the 24/96 LPCM from the AMG - and not having any further content included - would do.
I assume that as the menu structure is in the Audio_TS the disc would load as a DVD-A disc, but there would be precious little point in making such a disc.
www.opusproductions.com
Multichannel Audio Specialists
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> > "According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced."according to Neil from the referenced post:
"All the DVD-V content is fully accessible from the DVD-A manager if the disc is correctly authored ..."
- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=dvda&n=17416&highlight=Neil+Wilkes&r=&session= (Open in New Window)
... you will notice that Neil was referring to "importing" DVD-Video content into DVD-Audio, and that is what he means by "correctly authored". In another post, he clarified that this actually means duplicating the content.I thought, like you, it *was* possible to simply reference, or link into the content to avoid duplication, but I must admit I have not seen any authoring tool that does this. Maybe it needs mucking around with the UDF directory structure, but they are different files (.VOB vs .AOB) so it's more than creating the equivalent of a "symbolic link."
> > ... you will notice that Neil was referring to "importing" DVD-Video content into DVD-Audio, < <I think confusion is arising. In short, there's no way that he means "importing" a second copy onto the disc itself. During playback, the DVD-A manager can link into the DVD-V content, without having to duplicate it on the disc.
> > "According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced. Personally, I'm not sure, I thought it was possible too, but then I defer to Neil since he authors DVD-A for a living!"pick up any of the Hi-Res Music discs
I looked at the link, and they seem to sell dual sided discs (like Classic HDADs).What has that to do with referencing/linking to DVD-V content from DVD-A menu?
these discs are authored as you suggest they can't be authored (e.g., DVD-A side accessing DVD-V content). if and/when you pick one up, take a look at its directory content.
Think about it.
the majority of these discs are single sided discs. i own a handful of them (which is why i mentioned Leon Russell). even the dual-sided disc, such as Soular Energy, the DVD-V side which is 96/24 (the other side btw is 192/24 LPCM!) is actually a DVD-A disc with 96/24 LPCM content in the VIDEO_TS directory and reference data in the AUDIO_TS directory. DVD-Audio player recognizes the 96/24 side as a DVD-A disc.
... in particular there is no evidence that the content is "referenced" as you say rather than duplicated. If you could actually list the structure of the .IFS files and prove that they are indeed references I could perhaps agree.I agree that it would be nice if DVD-A can simply link to DVD-V content rather than duplicate, but just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's possible.
> > "... in particular there is no evidence that the content is "referenced" as you say rather than duplicated."nor do you have any evidence to the contrary.
what you do have is a reference to software that i believe is authored as discussed. pick up a sample, analyze it and draw your own conclusions.
since you're the one who's desperate to prove something, the onus is on you to supply evidence. so far you haven't.remember, all along i said i would like to believe it's true, but have been told it's not, so i'm looking for evidence. don't ask me to "pick up samples" of discs i have no intention of buying, because frankly, if you have the disc, you analyse it and tell me.
just trying to be helpful by pointing out disc titles that i believe demonstrate the discussed authoring technique. it is your prerogative if you whish to further your investigation by picking up any of these discs.since you still seem to be confused and frustrated over this topic i would suggest we drop it and move on.
*** you still seem to be confused and frustrated ***it seems to me you're the one confused and frustrated, since you've expended a lot of energy trying to prove something. all i'm doing is pointing out flaws in your logic :-)
remember it's *good* practice to make sure DVD-Audio content is a proper superset of DVD-Video content, so at best you are showing an example of a well-authored disc.
now if you were to demonstrate that it would be impossible to fit all the content onto the disc if they were duplicated, that might be something.
why don't you inspect the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories? If the AUDIO_TS directory is a LOT smaller but seems to have the same content, we might be on to something ...
if they are approximately equal in size, then it suggests the content IS duplicated.
... which is why we've been going in circles.
... I've already pointed out, I have nothing to prove or disprove, since I am not advancing an opinion (I said I wasn't sure, remember).On the other hand, you are, so it's up to you to offer proof, which you still haven't.
you may not have noticed my reply to Martin, but i have verified that for the specific disc that we were talking about (the Arts Music one with 2 LPCM 2.0 tracks) the two tracks are physically separate and not links to the one track. This was confirmed by inspecting the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories.So, contrary to your cheap shot, I have provided some data on the specific title that you expressed an opinion in.
Sheesh. Are you and Michi always on the rag?
> > . . . confirmed that Group 1 was MLP 5.1, Group 2 was DD 5.1, and Group 3 was MLP 2.0. There was no way (unlike on your player) I could have verified this without a video display. < <That's strange. On my copy of the L'Estro Armonico disc Group 3 contains the hirez 2-ch LPCM mix, according to my player in "DVD Audio" mode. (My Denon's front LED does tell me LPCM/PPCM etc.)
Moreover, there appears to be no MLP 2-ch mix anywhere on the disc. (What would be the point anyway? -- since LPCM plays on every type of DVD player.)
> > The elusive second 2ch track turns out to be a separate LPCM 2.0 96/24 track encoded on the DVD-Video section of the disc < <
This does not appear to be "elusive" at all. My player only reports 'LPCM' for 2-ch. By the way, what do your TV menu options say? (Press "Top Menu" button). F.W.I.W. mine says:-
"1. MLP 24bit/96kHz"
"2. Stereo Linear PCM 24bit 96kHz"
"3. Dolby Digital 5.1"
"4. Credits"
The 2.0 track is LPCM, not MLP - my mistake.*** This does not appear to be "elusive" at all. ***
It is, because it is a completely independent SECOND LPCM track located in the VIDEO_TS directory, thus not available from the DVD-Audio menu (by the way - you cheated by accessing the menu - remember the whole point was how navigable the disc was WITHOUT using a display).
> > you cheated by accessing the menu - remember the whole point was how navigable the disc was WITHOUT using a display < <I just wanted to see what the "official" menu options were -- for the purposes of this discussion.
To be honest, that was the first time I'd seen the menus on my player. (I'd only seen them before when testing the disc on a separate DVD-Video system a while back.)N.B. I would like some official word on whether the "second" LPCM track you mention is actually just a reference to a common single LPCM track, or not. It would seem a stupid waste of space to have two identical LPCM tracks: one for DVD-V segment, and another for DVD-A access.
My gut feeling is that there's just one LPCM stereo track on "L'Estro". Especially since it's on a DVD-5 where I don't think two uncompressed 96kHz 24bit LPCMs would fit in addition to the hirez 5.1 MLP & Dolby mixes. Also, why have LPCM for the DVD-A part, when you can have space-saving MLP?
Maybe somebody here can do the math on the LPCM/MLP timing & capacity capability of a DVD-5.
However, i checked the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories on the disc, and they are consistent with the hypothesis that the 2 LPCM tracks are separate/duplicated.it's a very tight fit though, there's over 1GB in the VIDEO_TS directory and around 3GB in the AUDIO_TS directory.
If I had just "assumed" that Group 2 contained the MLP 2.0 track (which I would have been very tempted to do) I would have been listening to just the Front Left/Right channels of the DD 5.1 mix.I might take the effort to insert a note on this disc to say that MLP 2.0 is on Group 3. So much for the rule of thumb! (Try Group 1 track 2 or Group 2 for the 2ch track)
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