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...about my experiences with the Ayre C5-xe. I've been auditioning a demo unit in my big rig, and the end result is this:I put in an order today for one, before Charles Hansen realizes he is undercharging for this thing and raises the price! ;-)
To put it simply, it's the best one-box CD playback system I've tried, SACD playback is substantially better than my SCD-1, and it is absolutely the best DVD-Audio machine I have ever listened to. I don't know how Hansen got this player to sing like it does, but it's as impressive as the reviewers and other users have claimed.
Follow Ups:
congratulations on your new investment. sounds like your DVD-Audio navigation experience will improve significantly.
Navigation of DVD-As is improved over every other player I've tried/owned so far. I don't know about "significantly," though. There's still the issue of inconsistency of navigation from disc to disc. I don't have to put "cheat sheet" labels on the back of my CD or SACD cases. ;-)
Genuinly interested -- How does it find the 2-ch tracks? e.g. Does it "seek-out" highest-rez 2-ch on all available "Groups"?
Since the manual was printed we have found a couple of DVD-A discs that add another layer of complexity to the equation. Most DVD-As have the various resolutions separated into separate groups. However, some discs instead have multiple resolutions placed into the same group, but on different soundtracks (as found on DVD-V discs).You can access these soundtracks with the "Audio" button on the remote control as explained on page 17 of the owner's manual. Unfortunately there is no display to let you know what soundtrack you are in on a specific group. You can keep track of it, but it is something of a pain. When the disc is inserted it always defaults to soundtrack #1 in a given group. Each time the soundtrack is changed, there will be a momentary silence.
Charlie,No matter which way discs are authored people complain.
Traditional authoring with seperate groups for Surround and Stereo have people complaining when players (not yours) are poorly engineered and require a display to switch between groups to switch between the default group and the secondary group(s). Of course a well engineered player allows a mechanism to switch between groups without a display but fewer and fewer players are well engineered these days from a usability standpoint. Hell, even SA-CD on universal players are requiring displays to switch between stereo and MC presentations.
So content providers started using the PGC_Block recommended practice which places the data into a single group and seperate streams which can be toggled between with the AUDIO streams and this has some complaining about this implementation.
There is simply no pleasing everyone at this point.
> > "... fewer and fewer players are well engineered these days from a usability standpoint."right on.
> > "Hell, even SA-CD on universal players are requiring displays to switch between stereo and MC presentations."
... in theory, there's nothing wrong with the format (although with the benefit of hindsight they could have made things a lot easier/usable), but practically DVD-Audio navigation is now embedded into chipsets (eg. MediaTek, ESS, Mitsubishi) which does not leave much scope for manufacturers to improve the usability even if they wanted to (like Ayre) simply because it's not cost effective from an R&D point of view.If I can get hold of a cheap small form factor LCD video display I might just hook it up to my player and forget the idea of video-less navigation. Do you have any suggestions? I can get a cheap portable DVD player with a composite video in for A$299, so I'm looking for something a lot cheaper than that.
I ordered an inexpensive one off of e-bay which does the job fine for my purposes, a 7" widescreen. I think I was out about US$90 delivered a few years ago without a tuner.I don't use it very often, as I listen to MC layers on SA-CD and DVD-Audio whenever available so there's not much cause to switch. I do need it for review players to check configuration when I don't have the projector fired up or for initial configuration on Pre/Pros that don't have adequate information on their displays to do a proper configuration without one.
It's sad that the ease of use advantage that is possible for SA-CD has been engineered away in the last two generations of universal players.
All up cost including postage and insurance is about A$150 (which is close to US$100)I think this is the best solution in the long run (I've just had a negative experience trying to navigate a DVD-A without a display and it just reminded me how painful that is), plus it allows me to change settings on my surround processor without firing up the projector.
*** It's sad that the ease of use advantage that is possible for SA-CD has been engineered away in the last two generations of universal players. ***
That's why I avoid universal players - most of them implement SA-CD as an afterthought. Having said that, the very latest Denon players now allow you to switch between the SACD/CD audio tracks on the remote control, so they are finally listening to people like me. Unfortunately, DVD-A navigation has gone backwards - the very usable Search Mode button on the DVD-2200 (which actually prompts you on the front panel display) hasn't been implemented as well in later models. I must try the navigation method suggested by Martin419 next time I play with a Denon (Press Display, followed by Group no., right arrow, track no.) since that seems pretty straightforward.
I was slated to review the DVD-A1XV (DVD-5910 i think - the one with the Teranex HQV processing) but the distributor pulled back at the last minute and said they've had such an unprecendented interest from consumers they've decided against shipping a review unit for mere nobodies like me until they've fulfilled demand.
False humility isn't becoming of you Chris ;-) It has nothing to do with you or your stature and everything to do with the fact that they can't keep up with demand. The product is selling as fast as they can get them in and ship them so reviewers are at a very low priority.I have a feeling once they satisfy the backlog you'll get a sample.
I know I've been waiting for a year for review samples of some loudspeakers, and they are finally going to ship out to me next week.
i freely admit i'm a nobody, because it's true :-) remember, we had this conversation a while ago? :-)anyway, the last time this happened (as i recall, the denon dvd-5900), i never did get to review the player, because by the time they "satisfied" demand, it was too late for a review to make a difference to their sales.
so i'm not holding high hopes of seeing it. a pity, because i was interested in putting HQV through its paces.
HQV is pretty impressive from the little bit I've seen and it puts pressure on the other manufacturers (Faroudja, DVDO and now National Semiconductor) to step up the performance of their products.I see their lead as transient and it'll just push somebody else to be next year's king of the hill until HQV comes out with their next gen chipset etc etc etc.
Competition is good in the marketplace, it makes everyone makes better products).
do you know if it does motion *compensated* deinterlacing (as opposed to motion *adaptive*)?i can live without the denoising/enhancement algorithms (i prefer to view DVDs as they are as opposed to some algorithm's idea of how they should be), and support for non-standard pulldown patterns is cute but probably not that important for the majority of DVDs.
so basically if they do motion compensated deinterlacing, that would be a big win.
my "reference" player is my HTPC running MCE2005 and the NVidia PureVideo decoder. it's not perfect, but scaling to the native resolution of my projector is a big win.
They aren't specific about motion compensated vs. motion adaptive, I suspect they are compensated. This would apply to native interlaced material (video mode) only, since they wouldn't need to do any work on film based material that has been properly recovered.Based on results on video based material I've seen scaled by HQV it becomes a moot point as to whether it is compensated or adaptive as they are very good results.
For someone as well versed as you are in digital technology to dismiss a noise reduction algorithm without seeing it in action is a bit disappointing. I think the Algolith product does the best job, with the HQV right behind and both make a substantial improvement over raw video.
You don't realize how annoying all the noise is in DVD-Video until someone removes it.
it's "pixel-based motion adaptive", *not* motion compensated. pity. they do go down to the resolution of 1 pixel though, which is better than most (nvidia for example works on blocks of pixels - i can actually see the blocks on the screen on certain scenes).*** to dismiss a noise reduction algorithm without seeing it in action is a bit disappointing ***
i wasn't dismissing it, just saying i can live without it - not the same thing. i'm a "purist", remember? :-)
*** it becomes a moot point as to whether it is compensated or adaptive as they are very good results. ***
now who is dismissing technology without seeing it in action? :-)
i *have* seen proper motion compensation in both spatial and temporal domains, and believe me it makes a big difference :-) teranex themselves have a white paper on it, pity they haven't implemented it in HQV :-(
*** Algolith product does the best job, with the HQV right behind ***
Algolith uses the Silicon Optix HQV chipset.
*** You don't realize how annoying all the noise is in DVD-Video until someone removes it. ***
Except when the noise is *intentional*, in which case it's downright annoying that an algorithm has reversed a creative decision. i can think of a few titles offhand that falls into this category ...
The noise they (Aloglith) are removing is mosquito noise, not film grain. The two have different visual signatures. An algortihm can (and does) distinguish between them and can remove one and not the other.As for adaptive vs. compensated, the HQV looked extremely good, but it was on looped material. Not enough variety for a solid impression. I'd like to see the HQV side by side with the latest Faroudja solution and see how they compare on a bigger variety of video material.
Demo material is always chosen to show a product at its best ;-)
*** The noise they (Aloglith) are removing is mosquito noise, not film grain. ***Yes, I'm aware of the difference. I'm specifically thinking of titles where "video noise" is a creative decision inserted into the material - one of Steven Soderbergh's films was like this (can't remember the title though, but it didn't do well at the box office). the whole point of the film was that the audience can tell that it was shot on a cheap videocam - in fact Steven says in the commentary it was still too clean and they had to digitally insert additional noise. i would hate to see what HQV may do to it.
*** I'd like to see the HQV side by side with the latest Faroudja solution and see how they compare on a bigger variety of video material. ***
Faroudja isn't the king anymore, although they are still very good on interlaced video sources. For example, the nvidia puredecoder solution runs rings around faroudja for film recognition and bad edit detection - i've compared the two together on the WHQL DVD Annex 3.0 disc.
However, I would suspect (based purely on the material on the HQV benchmark DVD) HQV may be at least as good as Faroudja for video sources, and superior for film sources. Throw in noise reduction/enhancement, and i think HQV will probably be a clear winner.
However, compare HQV alongside the teranex broadcast quality Image Enhancer, and i suspect you will still see a significant gap, and that would be the difference between motion adaptive and motion compensation.
Christine:It's a competitive technology field, HQV might be ahead for the moment. Will they remain in the lead for an extended period? It's way too soon to tell.
Given that it's a competitive technology field it is just as likely that this will simply spur their competitors to make better products that exceed HQV performance in their next generation product. Then when HQV Gen 2 comes out, it exceeds the current top performer and so on. In the end, all the products get better.
With respect to noise reduction; a competently designed product would allow you to turn on and off the noise reduction processing rather than forcing it to be engaged at all times.
> > "If I can get hold of a cheap small form factor LCD video display I might just hook it up to my player and forget the idea of video-less navigation. Do you have any suggestions?"
... unfortunately, the version I bought only accepts PAL and not NTSC (which is what all the DVD-As contain).I've been looking at some of the 7" LCD/TFT displays intended for car use. There's a company called "Eonon" on E-Bay (based in Hong Kong) that sells them for about A$150 (including shipping)
I'm currently tempted to buy one.
I'm coming to the conclusion that DVD-As are not meant to be navigated without a video display, so if you can't beat them, then join them. A small LCD display would be relatively non obtrusive, and if it's noisy then at least I can easily switch it off or on.
> > "... unfortunately, the version I bought only accepts PAL and not NTSC"that's odd, the website references both versions. ???
another option may be an alternate Casio site.
- http://www.casio.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products.catalog_pro&Catalog=Portable TVs (Open in New Window)
http://www.mp3playerstore.com/stuff_you_need/special/index.htmlJust scroll down for the portable, stand-alone monitors.
Kal
Maybe a firmware update could enable it to automatically "seek" the 2-ch hirez portion of the group -- if more than one exist in Group 1? There are players which already do this. I have a cheap stereo Panasonic DVD-Audio/Video micro-system which does. I also have a rather more expensive Denon DVD-A11 which doesn't. And I have seen Pioneers which do find the 2-ch part of a group, when the player is set to 2-ch mode (and not downmix the 5.1 zone).By the way, there was an interesting thread on this a while back . . .
...Ayre doesn't write the firmware that controls these functions. We use Pioneer's firmware. If we bought 10,000 players a year from them they would do some customization for us, but we aren't anywhere close to that. (No high-end company is.)
... your player will not navigate to DVD-Video content on DVD-Audio discs. I wish Pioneer would recognise that sometimes there are content in VIDEO_TS that are not necessarily replicated onto AUDIO_TS.Have you considered using another platform for future universal players? Eg. Linn Silver Disk Engine, or the Denon platform?
You could also consider the MediaTek chipset, since that has very fast navigation speed.
I think the Linn SDE might be quite customisable, since they wrote their own DVD-A navigation code, although you might not like their customisation fee!
I'm sure there are some discs with content in the VIDEO_TS that is not duplicated in the AUDIO_TS. But I'm pretty sure that such content would contain video. Since the Ayre C-5xe doesn't have video capabilities, there wouldn't be any point to play that content, would there?
> > there wouldn't be any point to play that content, would there? < <There would -- if it contained the only hirez LPCM stereo track on the disc.
There are also 'DAD' discs which are regular DVDs that contain high-resolution LPCM audio up to 96kHz 24bit in Video_TS.
The Ayre will play the VIDEO_TS on the 96/24 DAD discs, because those discs don't have an AUDIO_TS. So no problem there.Do you have an example of a DVD-Audio disc where the only hi-res audio track is in the VIDEO_TS? I haven't found any yet, and am having a hard time imagining that somebody would do that.
Have you tried the AIX classical titles? Those all have the 5.1 as MLP, but the stereo 96kHz/24bit tracks are LPCM for DVD-V machine compatibility. All on a DVD-5.
It sounds like this would be a potential problem. In this case the Ayre C-5xe would play a downmix of the 5.1 recording. You would hear all the music, but the mix might not be quite the same as what the engineer did in the studio for the 2.0 mix.Could give me a specific title to try? We'll play around with it and see what we can come up with. The worst-case scenario would be to use a set of key punches on the remote that would force the player to look at the VIDEO_TS material. You could tell where you were because then the "Chapter" indicator would be displayed on the front panel instead of the "Group" indicator. You would have to remember to go back to the normal mode after listening to that disc.
Just remember, it's not our fault. :-( It's pretty obvious that DVD-Audio was designed by a comittee....
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I ordered it this morning. I'll let you know what we find out when it arrives.
try Hi-Res Music.though i only have a handful of their titles, i do i believe all of their titles are DVD-A discs and are authored this way.
a few discs are actually dual-sided with DVD-A/V playback capability on one side (authored as discussed) and DVD-A only playback capability on the flip side.
Thanks for the pointing me in the right direction. I don't want to start buying random titles in order to find something. Do you have a specific title that would cause a problem?If you put a dual-sided disc into the Ayre C-5xe, it will play both sides. It's just that if *both* a VIDEO_TS and an AUDIO_TS are present at the same time, it will navigate to the AUDIO_TS.
> > "Do you have a specific title that would cause a problem?"not to my knowledge. i wasn't suggesting these were problematic. only pointing out examples of discs authored per discussion.
> > "It's just that if *both* a VIDEO_TS and an AUDIO_TS are present at the same time, it will navigate to the AUDIO_TS. "
as it should as a properly designed DVD-Audio player. :) thanks.
The user must find the appropriate group/tracks. What the player does is provide a whole bunch of indicators that show which group you're in, and whether the material in that group is quad-rate (176/192), double rate (88.2/96), "regular" rate (44.1/48), or DTS/Dolby Digital, and whether there is video content.If you have some idea of what is supposed to be on the disc, it's (usually) pretty straightforward to find things. If you know where things are, it's easy to go straight to them.
What about a 'Group 1' which contains both the stereo and multichannel programs? Does it automatically play the 2-ch and not downmix the 5.1?(I've seen players do this -- e.g. Pioneer & Panny seem to auto-detect the 2-ch PPCM track if it's co-located with the 5.1 on Group 1 -- when player's speaker-setup is 2-ch -- whereas Denon does not.)
> > What about a 'Group 1' which contains both the stereo and multichannel programs? Does it automatically play the 2-ch and not downmix the 5.1? < <
reviewing the manual, it looks like they stopped just short of truly making the DVD-A navigation seamless via the onboard display. they should have added bit-depth and number of active channels indicators.
While it might be nice to have such things, I don't know where the indicators could be located without making the front panel display, and thus the player, much larger. Plus, if having that many indicators is necessary, then it really is a strong indication that DVD-Audio is a user nightmare.AFAIC, there is sufficient information given by the player for me to fumble through most of my relatively small collection of DVD-As. If I needed more data, I would trashcan my DVD-As and give up on the format completely. The beauty of the player is that it doesn't need a monitor, and most DVD-A navigation steps can be done from the front of the player - you don't even need the remote in most cases. That's better than the $20,000 Meridian Reference player, which requires both a monitor and the remote to successfully navigate DVD-As.
> > "... if having that many indicators is necessary, then it really is a strong indication that DVD-Audio is a user nightmare.everyone has a different threshold of pain when it comes to UI (just about any UI).
the manual sums up the format pretty well:
"The DVD-Audio format is extremely flexible and allows for a wide variety of audio formats, including both stereo and multi-channel, each with a multiplicity of available sample rates and resolutions. This increased flexibility necessarily leads to an increased complexity of disc navigation."
> > the manual sums up the format pretty well:"The DVD-Audio format is extremely flexible and allows for a wide variety of audio formats, including both stereo and multi-channel, each with a multiplicity of available sample rates and resolutions. This increased flexibility necessarily leads to an increased complexity of disc navigation." < <
The same person who wrote that statement in the manual also wrote this statement about DVD-A:" If all else fails, one could always write down a pre-determined navigation sequence on the disc's case for reference. It's a silly thing to have to do, but there's not much we can do about this poorly thought out format..."
That's a pretty good summing up of the format as well. :-)
> > " If all else fails, one could always write down a pre-determined navigation sequence on the disc's case for reference. < <I think this is a grossly exaggerated issue. Moreover, it doesn't seem to me that the Ayre does anything special in terms of navigation that other DVD-A players don't already do. (Although I am sure that it's a finer sounding player than most others out there.)
F.W.I.W. I now have about 120 DVD-As (including DualDiscs with DVD-A content) and I can navigate every one easily without the monitor turned on and get to the 2-ch track (where applicable) without getting up from my sofa. In fact, I always play my DVDAs with "Pure Direct" set to turn off all video circuits and there are numerous DVDAs where I've never even seen the menus.
In short, my memory is not so bad that I would ever need to resort to writing a 'cheat card'. ;-)
b.t.w. Importantly for me, I can go directly to any Group, and any Track whilst the disc is playing. i.e. true random access. I don't need to ‘stop’ the disc spinning during play. For example, I use it to A-B compare a hirez 2ch track with its 5.1 counterpart in a matter of seconds.
On my Denon A11 remote, during play I simply press the "Display" button once, then type the Group number and "Enter"; and I then press the "Right" arrow and type Track number (which includes use of the +10 button to get to any track number up to a theoretical 99), then press "Enter". And 'presto': One second later, the machine is playing the desired Track on a different Group. Granted, it’s still manual, but I like it. And it’s totally flexible.
Whilst doing this, I even see the Group and Track selections indicated on the front LED for confirmation. So it’s not even a ‘blind’ process.
Thereafter, during the session, i.e. until I next press "Stop", I do not need to press "Display" again when selecting Groups & Tracks in this way. Of course I do need the remote to do this -- but again, I've never seen that as a problem, especially as it means I do not have to get up from my comfy sofa.
N.B. The Panasonic DVD-A user-interface (with its 'Group' button on the remote) is even simpler than the "no-monitor" process described for the Denon.
In contrast, with SACD on that player, I have to stop the player, go to the front panel, and set the SACD setting to 2ch or multichannel, before I can start the session (i.e. before I insert the disc). That is not flexible: In short, with SACD I cannot do A-B comparisons without getting up from my sofa and stopping everything.
Of course, this is a slight digression, since you are just talking about stereo, but I figured my experience puts DVD-A flexibility & navigation issues into a better perspective.
the difference being is that the first statement is factual. the second, assuming it was said by the same individual who wrote the manual, is an opinion. (everyone's entitled to the latter. ;)
> > the difference being is that the first statement is factual. < <No, it is also a matter of opinion. Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder. You are only claiming the opinion as fact because you agree with it.
the facts and the essence of the referenced statement are: "The DVD-Audio format ... allows for a wide variety of audio formats, including both stereo and multi-channel, each with a multiplicity of available sample rates and resolutions." as such, the number and combination of these mandatory parameters increase the complexity of content navigation. (of course the perceived degree of complexity of content navigation will be driven by each user's "threshold of pain" relative to the UI.)
There's no doubt that the opinion contained some facts/reasonable assumptions - all good opinions do. The conclusion reached is still an opinion.
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Three days later, you're still spinning around in circles :-)
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I see you've decided to join the other children and the trolls with some bratty labelling. Why am I not surprised?
evector is emotionally invested in the opinion that DVD-Audio is easy to navigate ("one or two buttons max", remember?)so is very keen on discrediting anyone who holds a different view (ie. "must be the player" or "low threshold of pain").
the moment you quoted that statement about usability from the Ayre manual, you were in trouble. of course, anything that contradicts evector's position must be merely an "opinion", and anything that support it must be factual.
and of course, the moment i mentioned that the Arts Music disc has a separate LPCM track in DVD-Video which his player and your player cannot access, evector launched into this quest to desperately prove that this track is not worth accessing and in any case should be available or "referenced" from the DVD-Audio menu.
evector is now investing a lot of effort in "proving" that not being able to access DVD-Video content is irrelevant, because if it was relevant it destroys the point about easy navigation.
It's quite amusing and comical really. :-) i admit to being very cruel by deliberately teasing evector and saying exactly the right words that sets him/her off on another spin. it's even more fun than teasing Martin, which is a "sport" that i know you and i indulge in :-)
no worries. your reputation for childish and other forms of babbling as well as trolling is uncontested.
*** Why did you decide to go off on this tangent anyway? ***Because you dared to imply that DVD-A Navigation is anything but seamless.
I was trying my best to stay out of this thread, as evector and I have already thrashed this issue before, but I had an interesting experience last night.
After all the discussion about Arts Music SA-CDs in the other forum, I took out my Arts Music DVD-A for Vivaldi's L'Estro Armonico Vol 2 and played it.
In m-ch mode of course, it played fine. I just inserted disc in tray, and pressed Play. The back cover claims there are "2 high resolution stereo channels" so this pique my interest, and I decided to search for them. I was determined NOT use to the video display and see if I can find these just using the remote control and front panel display.
Well, what a journey that turned out to be. My player does not display any information on the current audio track so I was navigating blindly. I first tried the Audio button. Nothing happened, so I guessed the stereo track is not encoded as a parallel track in Group 1.
I tried navigating across Groups. There seems to be six Groups, with the first three containing music. Groups 1 and 2 appear to be m-ch, and Group 3 appears to be 2ch, so it appears I have found one of the audio tracks. I couldn't find any evidence of the second 2ch track.
Finally, after about 15 mins, I gave up, inserted the disc into PowerDVD, and confirmed that Group 1 was MLP 5.1, Group 2 was DD 5.1, and Group 3 was MLP 2.0. There was no way (unlike on your player) I could have verified this without a video display.
The elusive second 2ch track turns out to be a separate LPCM 2.0 96/24 track encoded on the DVD-Video section of the disc. There is of course no way I can access this track without a video display, since I need to go into setup to change the player to read the DVD-Video directory instead of the DVD-Audio directory. And of course, on evector's player, this track would be impossible to navigate to.
After this experience, I tried a second Arts Music disc (Shostakovich Symphonies 5 & 6) which also claimed to have dual 2ch tracks. After an even longer search (which I won't detail for the sake of brevity) I discovered this was another mislabelled disc. There is NO 2ch track on either DVD-Audio or DVD-Video content. Of course, the only way I could confirm was again to insert into PowerDVD.
Oh well, thanks for reminding me how painful DVD-A navigation is :-) I haven't yet copied these two discs onto my HTPC, but I think after last night's experience, I will (or at least, the one with the 2ch tracks).
> > "My player does not display any information on the current audio track so I was navigating blindly."your experience clearly supports my assertion that the ease of navigation without the use of an external display will be determined by two main factors: 1) the player's UI and 2) the user's threshold of pain using that player's UI.
if a player has a poor UI and is missing key status information, such as vital audio track details, your audio content navigation experience will without a doubt be more challenging (as you've described, "navigating blindly.").
solution: a player with a proper UI (including a front panel display clearly communicating all key audio track information).
example: racerguy's new player with a better UI, "Navigation of DVD-As is improved over every other player I've tried/owned so far."
> > "Oh well, thanks for reminding me how painful DVD-A navigation is :-)"
find the right player and the pain goes away. unless of course you enjoy the pain. ;)
The 2nd LPCM 2.0 track is located on the DVD-Video section of the disc. Remember, we've already had a discussion on this, and it took several posts before you even acknowledged what I was talking about?*** find the right player and the pain goes away. ***
I don't know any player that allow a user to navigate to DVD-Video content on a DVD-Audio disc WITHOUT using a display. Do you?
Racerguy's player actually won't be able to access the 2nd LPCM 2.0 track at all. Quote from the manual:
"Only DVD-Audio players can access the audio title set, but nearly all DVD-Audio discs also contain a video title set for backwards
compatibility with DVD-Video players. The Ayre C-5xe will only access the audio title set, ignoring any content in the video title set."
you already have access to an LPCM 2.0 track from the DVD-A side of the disc, yet you're frustrated that you can't access a separate, but probably identical, LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of that same disc.if an identical LPCM 2.0 track exists in both directories (for DVD-V player compatibility) and as long as your DVD-A player has access to a 2.0 hi-resolution track, then mission accomplished. no?
now, i can understand if there is a 2nd unique/different LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of the disc that cannot be accessed by a DVD-A player, then you have a legitimate issue with that disc not allowing you access to all unique/different hi-resolution content that the author intended you to access.
> > "I don't know any player that allow a user to navigate to DVD-Video content on a DVD-Audio disc WITHOUT using a display. Do you?"
that would be a DVD-V player with an audio selection button. ;) and if the DVD-V side audio content is referenced by a DVD-A group, then that content is accessible by a DVD-A player with or without a display.
*** you already have access to an LPCM 2.0 track from the DVD-A side of the disc, yet you're frustrated that you can't access a separate, but probably identical, LPCM 2.0 track on the DVD-V side of that same disc. ***the disc back cover advertises "2 high resolution stereo tracks", so i'm not sure these are identical - would be interesting to do a bit by bit comparison.
there's a possibility that the LPCM track on the DVD-Video section may not be watermarked, if so then yes, i would be frustrated at not being able to access it easily.
*** that would be a DVD-V player with an audio selection button. ;) ***
No, you are still not listening, or evading the issue. We are specifically talking about the ability of a player to switch between DVD-Video and DVD-Audio content on the same disc, without using a display. That would NOT be using an audio selection button.
*** if the DVD-V side audio content is referenced by a DVD-A group ***
According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced. Personally, I'm not sure, I thought it was possible too, but then I defer to Neil since he authors DVD-A for a living!
Can someone please post here with exactly what the question is, as I would like to dive in here & try to clarify the situation.Seems there are crossed lines, and I don't want to write anything until I know the exact original question.
Neil, the question is:can a DVD-Audio/Video disc be authored in such way where for example 2ch LPCM audio content is accessible by both DVD-A and DVD-V players WITHOUT duplicating this audio content in both VIDEO_TS & AUDIO_TS directories? (such that the DVD-A side of the disc is "referencing" the audio content from the DVD-V side of the disc)
if this disc were played in a DVD-Audio player, the disc would be recognized as a DVD-A disc even though there is no audio content (per above) in the AUDIO_TS directory (although there is other minimal content in the AUDIO_TS directory).
Yes, it is possible to do this.
You need a DVD-A authoring application that is capable of linking into an imported Video_TS folder though. I know of 2 that can do this - Sonic's DVD-Audio Creator and Minnetonka's discWelder Chrome.The way it is authored is quite simple:
1/. Create your Video_TS folder in a DVD-V authoring application - ideally one that does not use an Abstraction layer. For PC you can use either DVD Lab Pro & Sonic Scenarist. You may be able to get away with a prosumer application as long as the title is kept very simple as there are some restrictions imposed on a Video_TS for import into DVD-A discs.
If anyone is interested in this list, drop me a private email and I will happily send a copy.
2/. When the Video_TS is completed, Launch the DVD-A app and continue. I use Chrome, Build 2.0.24 so these guides apply to this application. I do not know how Sonic's DVD-A creator handles this.
Anyway - this is how it is done:
A/. Create a new project in Chrome.
B/. Double click on the album title in the arrange window. This will bring up the project properties. Set your TV standard as required, and then you will see a tab for Video_TS - choose to use an imported one, and browse to this.
C/. In Group 1, create your 5.1 MLP version.
D/. Add in another group.
E/. Right click on the time, and choose the correct VTS.There is a further restriction here imposed by Chrome, sadly. Although the rules say you can have up to 2 Audio streams per VTS, Chrome can only link directly to the whole VTS, and not to an individual stream. This is going to change in the next version though.
But - you definitely do not need to duplicate the 24/96 file in the Audio_TS.
Personally, I think it is a bad plan to use a 24/96 in a DVD-V title, simply because so many players will truncate it down to 16 bit and further decimate down to 48KHz. Having said that though, as long as your DVD-V authoring application can handle a 24/96 file, there is no reason why it cannot be in the Video_TS and referenced from the AMG.
In fact, the spec book clearly says that(From section AU8-1 in the spec book:)
"Every Title by each VTS in DVD-Video zone of DVD-Audio disc shall be
pointed by ATT Search Pointer Table (ATT_SRPT) in Audio Manager (AMG)."So, any Video_TS content really should be accessible from the AMG of the DVD-A player without having to reset the player to DVD-Video mode.
Sadly, Warners do not seem to author their discs correctly at all, and most of the time the Video_TS content is not accessible. This is bad authoring.
I have a great example - the K.D. Laing disc, Invincible Summer, says on the box it has a 24/96 Surround track and a 24/96 Stereo track.
It does not! There is a single MLP stream on the disc, so if there is a stereo version it is either an embedded one or else a downmix. It sounds like a downmix to me.But I'm rambling on again, and should perhaps shut up.
demonstrating what you are talking about and make it available for download? You could try using dummy content - say a sine wave for a few seconds.When I tried that in Chrome, it created a duplicate (ie. imported the content into .AOB instead of linking to the VTS). It's quite obvious when you look at the file sizes in AUDIO_TS vs VIDEO_TS. I was using an old version though.
I don't see why not.
It may take me a few days to actually get around to doing it though - I'm seriously busy at the moment (not a complaint!).What version were you using?
When I still ran version 1, there was beta code that allowed linking into imported VTS from Group 1 only, and it was a little buggy.
I'm running build 2.0.24 now, and from looking at the disc usage I can see it is not adding into the Audio_TS fileset.
When importing the Video_TS, that adds to the disc usage - of course - and then the other content adds to that figure.I'll set up a disc with exactly this content & see.
Incidentally - what other content is in the Video_TS? Just a 24/96 LPCM track or extra DTS/Dolby Digital material? You can link to all of them - and to satisfy strict specs, you should do!In answer to another question, I am not sure what would happen if linking to the 24/96 LPCM from the AMG - and not having any further content included - would do.
I assume that as the menu structure is in the Audio_TS the disc would load as a DVD-A disc, but there would be precious little point in making such a disc.
www.opusproductions.com
Multichannel Audio Specialists
.
> > "According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced."according to Neil from the referenced post:
"All the DVD-V content is fully accessible from the DVD-A manager if the disc is correctly authored ..."
- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=dvda&n=17416&highlight=Neil+Wilkes&r=&session= (Open in New Window)
... you will notice that Neil was referring to "importing" DVD-Video content into DVD-Audio, and that is what he means by "correctly authored". In another post, he clarified that this actually means duplicating the content.I thought, like you, it *was* possible to simply reference, or link into the content to avoid duplication, but I must admit I have not seen any authoring tool that does this. Maybe it needs mucking around with the UDF directory structure, but they are different files (.VOB vs .AOB) so it's more than creating the equivalent of a "symbolic link."
> > ... you will notice that Neil was referring to "importing" DVD-Video content into DVD-Audio, < <I think confusion is arising. In short, there's no way that he means "importing" a second copy onto the disc itself. During playback, the DVD-A manager can link into the DVD-V content, without having to duplicate it on the disc.
> > "According to Neil Wilkes, in a previous post, this is impossible. The content needs to be duplicated, not referenced. Personally, I'm not sure, I thought it was possible too, but then I defer to Neil since he authors DVD-A for a living!"pick up any of the Hi-Res Music discs
I looked at the link, and they seem to sell dual sided discs (like Classic HDADs).What has that to do with referencing/linking to DVD-V content from DVD-A menu?
these discs are authored as you suggest they can't be authored (e.g., DVD-A side accessing DVD-V content). if and/when you pick one up, take a look at its directory content.
Think about it.
the majority of these discs are single sided discs. i own a handful of them (which is why i mentioned Leon Russell). even the dual-sided disc, such as Soular Energy, the DVD-V side which is 96/24 (the other side btw is 192/24 LPCM!) is actually a DVD-A disc with 96/24 LPCM content in the VIDEO_TS directory and reference data in the AUDIO_TS directory. DVD-Audio player recognizes the 96/24 side as a DVD-A disc.
... in particular there is no evidence that the content is "referenced" as you say rather than duplicated. If you could actually list the structure of the .IFS files and prove that they are indeed references I could perhaps agree.I agree that it would be nice if DVD-A can simply link to DVD-V content rather than duplicate, but just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's possible.
> > "... in particular there is no evidence that the content is "referenced" as you say rather than duplicated."nor do you have any evidence to the contrary.
what you do have is a reference to software that i believe is authored as discussed. pick up a sample, analyze it and draw your own conclusions.
since you're the one who's desperate to prove something, the onus is on you to supply evidence. so far you haven't.remember, all along i said i would like to believe it's true, but have been told it's not, so i'm looking for evidence. don't ask me to "pick up samples" of discs i have no intention of buying, because frankly, if you have the disc, you analyse it and tell me.
just trying to be helpful by pointing out disc titles that i believe demonstrate the discussed authoring technique. it is your prerogative if you whish to further your investigation by picking up any of these discs.since you still seem to be confused and frustrated over this topic i would suggest we drop it and move on.
*** you still seem to be confused and frustrated ***it seems to me you're the one confused and frustrated, since you've expended a lot of energy trying to prove something. all i'm doing is pointing out flaws in your logic :-)
remember it's *good* practice to make sure DVD-Audio content is a proper superset of DVD-Video content, so at best you are showing an example of a well-authored disc.
now if you were to demonstrate that it would be impossible to fit all the content onto the disc if they were duplicated, that might be something.
why don't you inspect the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories? If the AUDIO_TS directory is a LOT smaller but seems to have the same content, we might be on to something ...
if they are approximately equal in size, then it suggests the content IS duplicated.
... which is why we've been going in circles.
... I've already pointed out, I have nothing to prove or disprove, since I am not advancing an opinion (I said I wasn't sure, remember).On the other hand, you are, so it's up to you to offer proof, which you still haven't.
you may not have noticed my reply to Martin, but i have verified that for the specific disc that we were talking about (the Arts Music one with 2 LPCM 2.0 tracks) the two tracks are physically separate and not links to the one track. This was confirmed by inspecting the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories.So, contrary to your cheap shot, I have provided some data on the specific title that you expressed an opinion in.
Sheesh. Are you and Michi always on the rag?
> > . . . confirmed that Group 1 was MLP 5.1, Group 2 was DD 5.1, and Group 3 was MLP 2.0. There was no way (unlike on your player) I could have verified this without a video display. < <That's strange. On my copy of the L'Estro Armonico disc Group 3 contains the hirez 2-ch LPCM mix, according to my player in "DVD Audio" mode. (My Denon's front LED does tell me LPCM/PPCM etc.)
Moreover, there appears to be no MLP 2-ch mix anywhere on the disc. (What would be the point anyway? -- since LPCM plays on every type of DVD player.)
> > The elusive second 2ch track turns out to be a separate LPCM 2.0 96/24 track encoded on the DVD-Video section of the disc < <
This does not appear to be "elusive" at all. My player only reports 'LPCM' for 2-ch. By the way, what do your TV menu options say? (Press "Top Menu" button). F.W.I.W. mine says:-
"1. MLP 24bit/96kHz"
"2. Stereo Linear PCM 24bit 96kHz"
"3. Dolby Digital 5.1"
"4. Credits"
The 2.0 track is LPCM, not MLP - my mistake.*** This does not appear to be "elusive" at all. ***
It is, because it is a completely independent SECOND LPCM track located in the VIDEO_TS directory, thus not available from the DVD-Audio menu (by the way - you cheated by accessing the menu - remember the whole point was how navigable the disc was WITHOUT using a display).
> > you cheated by accessing the menu - remember the whole point was how navigable the disc was WITHOUT using a display < <I just wanted to see what the "official" menu options were -- for the purposes of this discussion.
To be honest, that was the first time I'd seen the menus on my player. (I'd only seen them before when testing the disc on a separate DVD-Video system a while back.)N.B. I would like some official word on whether the "second" LPCM track you mention is actually just a reference to a common single LPCM track, or not. It would seem a stupid waste of space to have two identical LPCM tracks: one for DVD-V segment, and another for DVD-A access.
My gut feeling is that there's just one LPCM stereo track on "L'Estro". Especially since it's on a DVD-5 where I don't think two uncompressed 96kHz 24bit LPCMs would fit in addition to the hirez 5.1 MLP & Dolby mixes. Also, why have LPCM for the DVD-A part, when you can have space-saving MLP?
Maybe somebody here can do the math on the LPCM/MLP timing & capacity capability of a DVD-5.
However, i checked the relative sizes of the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS directories on the disc, and they are consistent with the hypothesis that the 2 LPCM tracks are separate/duplicated.it's a very tight fit though, there's over 1GB in the VIDEO_TS directory and around 3GB in the AUDIO_TS directory.
If I had just "assumed" that Group 2 contained the MLP 2.0 track (which I would have been very tempted to do) I would have been listening to just the Front Left/Right channels of the DD 5.1 mix.I might take the effort to insert a note on this disc to say that MLP 2.0 is on Group 3. So much for the rule of thumb! (Try Group 1 track 2 or Group 2 for the 2ch track)
Now that DVD-Audio copy protection has been "bypassed" and the format's success or otherwise has become a moot point, i secretly wish the DVD-A consortium would just "give in" and allow unrestricted PC based playback.I can imagine a 2 channel PC based player (such as my HTPC for example!) that keeps a database of location of 2 channel audio tracks on all titles, and automatically selects it when the disc is inserted. That wouldn't be too difficult to program, and make navigation so easy.
Of course, I have implemented a better solution. I've ripped the 2 channel tracks of all my favourite discs, and stored them on my server as WMA Lossless files, so I can play them at any time by point and click (I control the PC remotely over Wi-Fi by running NetRemote on a PDA - it's the slickest user interface for playing music!) For discs with no 2 channel tracks, I've downmixed them myself from the 5.1 track (with 32-bit floating point precision). It took several weekends, but most of it was running batch jobs so didn't take that much effort. After I've named the tracks, Windows Media Player even helpfully downloads album information and cover art from the internet (I'm still surprised by that, but grateful!).
My next project is running a convolver to do digital room correction. There is an open source plug-in available for Media Player, and I've bought the necessary hardware (Behringer ECM8000 measurement mike, plus UB1204FX mixer - yes, i went for the "overkill" on that one) to do impulse response measurements. I'm normally a "purist", but I thought this might be a fun project to try out (without spending megabucks on a TacT)
For details on my HTPC, check out the URL (PS - ambient noise in my living room with the PC and amplifier turned on is just a tad less than 50dB SPL)
I'm envious.Wish I could come and visit and have a listen!
And let us know if you hear any difference/sonic signature between PCM and DSD. I must admit on my new system, I can't really tell the difference, even across two different players, playing back the same material. But then my new amps haven't completed the "burn in" phase yet, will be interesting to see if in the longer term i can perceive any differences.
Better than the SCD-1 you say? I guess I'll have to get one too. Are they on dealers' shelves or are they still backordered?
I've been looking for quite a while for something that is better than the venerable SCD-1, and isn't stupid money. I finally found it. More detail, better resolution than the SCD-1, without being forward-sounding. One of the nits that bugged me about the SCD-1 was a touch of sibilance on vocals; minor, but there. The Ayre cured that problem.The fact that it plays DVD-Audio, and DVD-A discs can be navigated without a video display (yay!) is gravy at this price point.
The dealer ordered the unit, but turnaround time is expected to be quick enough that he told me to keep the demo until the new one arrives.
Now I have to figure out what do do with the SCD-1. Should I sell it, or build a shrine? ;-)
I was thinking about this player when the first reviews were so very positive. I really like my SCD-1, but it is getting a little long in tooth - over 5 years old now, and it just seems that, even in the limited SACD player market, something must be around that can exceed the very first player design. There is the Meitner of course, but it's 2 boxes, no room for that, plus it's expensive and I have this real reluctance to spend money on 4 channels that will never be used. The stereo-only one-box Ayre makes a lot more sense. Haven't heard it, but if it were easily available I'd probably buy it unheard based on reviews. The other thing I've been thinking about was just getting a very good CD player and relegating SCD-1 to SACD use only, since I am convinced that I can get considerably better out of redbook CD than I am getting. The Ayre apparently brings great CD sound to the table, and that is very important to me, as that is still my primary format. As far as what to do with the SCD-1, backup for when the Ayre breaks down? I already have an Audio Research CD player as backup for when the SCD-1 breaks down. It's dumb to have so many backups, but I hate to sell these products for pennies on the dollar.
I looked at buying a Meitner, or dCS, or Esoteric, or the like, and decided that for me these ultra components weren't really worth it. There's too much churn in digital technology for a working guy like me to spend that kind of investment, knowing that it's doomed to obsolescence long before my finances recover fromt he hit. Plus, after having lived with the Linn Unidisk 1.1 for a while and deciding that it is ludicrously overpriced for what it delivers, any figure over $10,000 gave me pause.Anyway, my compromise was the SCD-1 with a very high-quality outboard DAC, and a lengthy parade of inadequate DVD-Audio-capable players. This setup worked, but created box sprawl and a cable rats' nest, and made me dissatisfied with DVD-A in a big way. The Ayre is the first player I've found that I can live with which lets me change this. It's an excellent CD player - much better than the standalone SCD-1, and it gives my SCD-1/DAC combo a pretty good challenge. I think you'd find it to be a huge step up from your current setup for Redbook. Since it's one box, it would solve your space problem. You said you've been considering getting a separate CD player, but then you'll have two boxes (and two sets of ICs, and two power cords, etc.) which you mentioned you didn't have room for. Plus, you get DVD-Audio along for the ride, and it's a good player - better than the Meridian setup I tried a couple of years ago (which was 3 times the price). It doesn't cure DVD-Audio's problems, but it's a step in the right direction ;-)
I think I would've gotten a better CD player a long time ago, but simply do not have any more space for stuff. So that's why one box is very attractive. And if it loads from the front, it means an awkward procedure, reaching blind under a shelf, to load the top of the SCD-1, can be over. As far as DVD-A, I have a grand total of 1, and it's not even a real DVD-A, it's one of those Classic DADs. So that's a non-issue for me, except for the intriguing possibility of burning some of my LPs to 96 kHz DVDs. Won't be DVD-As but they might be very good.
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