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All three of my dualdiscs ripped with errors at high speedWhat the ...???
i didn't realise that until i started playing them - the errors start appearing as stutters and crackle about halfway through each disc.
i guess all the rumours were true after all - the CD layer is not as robust as a normal CD.
To give you an indication, so far I've ripped more than 150GB worth of music compressed using WMA Lossless - so far I have NEVER encountered errors with normal CDs. By coincidence (NOT!) all three DualDiscs that I bought had errors. And this is on a drive that has been praised in reviews as having very good CD audio extraction quality and error correction.
Now I feel cheated - should have just bought the regular CD for all three titles.
Follow Ups:
This is from the Denon website and I have seen similar "warnings" from other manufacturers:************************
"Will the non-DVD side (audio side) of the “DualDisc” play on Denon CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players and SACD/CD players?Not always. Since the audio side of the DualDisc does not meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio specifications found in the industry “Redbook Standard”, the data constituting the audio portion of the disc may not be read by some CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players and Super Audio CD players. Even though the audio side does not meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio specification, some Denon CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players and Super Audio CD players may read and interpret the audio side of the disc while others may not. The non-DVD side (audio side) of a “DualDisc” will be not able to play in a slot-type DJ or car audio players. Also, the non DVD side of “DualDisc" may become scratched or abraded with attempted playback in slot-type CD players.
4) Will Denon modify my CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players and SACD/CD players that cannot playback either side of a “DualDisc”?
No. The CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players or Super Audio CD players manufactured by Denon were designed to meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio and DVD Forum specifications. Since the non-DVD side (audio side) of the “DualDisc” does not meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio specification found in the industry “Redbook Standard”. Denon is not in a position to modify its players to allow them to play back this new type of disc."
************************This is from the columbia house website:
"The DVD side plays wherever a DVD plays - including many gaming consoles and computers. In a PC, the DVD side acts like a DVD-ROM on DualDiscs that include computer extras and Web links. The CD side plays on all but a limited number of CD and DVD models."
They may be taking a little liberty with their "limited number" comment.
That's why I keep saying "DualDisc, SchmualDisc."
. . . you will always be 'treading on thin ice' if you insist on using a product in a way that the manufactuers did not intend you to use it. i.e. rip them! :-)You evidently don't want to play the CD side of you DualDiscs in regular CD players as the record companies intended.
As I've said (but so far you haven't acknowledged), I have 14 DualDiscs which play perfectly on ALL CD players I've put them in, (and in several DVD players as well).
But you don't want to play them in CD players (and it seems you aren't interested in the DVD Audio either!).
I've also never had a single problem.
I used EAC and a old Dell CD ROM drive to extract them.All of the following titles ripped without issue (at least EAC reported no errors):
NIN - Downward Spiral
NIN - With Teeth
Duran Duran - Astronaut
I've also have not found a player yet that wouldn't play them.
The user is to blame in all cases. Dualdisc is flawless and wonderful. Users just need to learn the proper way to use CDs. Ripping is a misuse. CD-ROM is a misuse.
How strange it is that Christine comes to the DVD-Audiobahn to rant about her DualDisc "discovery", but omits one crucial thing in her quest for self-publicity: The DVD-Audio content of the discs she has.This place ain't a "Redbook ripping" forum, and in the absence of one here, methinks Whiner's Woad would have been a more appropriate destination for her comments, because they have no relevance here on the 'Bahn.
> > No wonder Dualdisc has been such a huge success < <
Couldn't agree more. And I can't wait for my "Brothers In Arms" presented in 24bit hirez 5.1 on DualDisc . . . He he
Nobody seems to realise that some labels deliberately provide content on DualDiscs specifically for ripping (or copying via a GUI).
> > How strange it is that Christine comes to the DVD-Audiobahn to rant about her DualDisc "discovery", < <Seems that the DVD-Audiobahn is, by default, the place to rant about DualDiscs.
I haven't noticed any complaints from you when KEKL rants about DualDiscs that don't have any DVD-Audio content, yet here you are complaining about someone else ranting over DualDiscs that don't have DVD-Audio content.
That's because I usually steer clear of Kekl threads altogether, but since you mention it, I do agree that Kekl should post elsewhere (at least when he's NOT talking about DVDA/hirez on Dualdisc.)
NT
There's the PCAudio "Computer Audio Asylum". They talk about ripping there.
The problem is, she does NOT currently have a regular CD player.
Christine,It may indeed be copy protection and/or the firmware in your drive.
"All three of my dualdiscs ripped with errors at high speed"
This is of no surprise at all. I don't know how new you are to ripping, but no one rips at high speed with expecting the BER to increase. High speed errors are much more common than 1X speed errors.
When you listen to the CD layer do you hear any audible artifacts?
If you can play the CD and everything sounds fine, but then you go to rip the track and everything goes to hell, the problem is with your equipment. Sure there could defintely be errors that you don't hear during regular playback, but if they are audible from ripping then you know that the ripping is the problem.
Manufacturers are constantly researching ways to thwart piracy. Just saying that the typical symptoms aren't present during track extraction really isn't conclusive, is it? Newer technologies from companies like Suncomm thwart piracy, but don't exhibit the behaviors you mentioned.
Do you remember Copy II Plus?
What's worse about modern computer drives is that none of the commonly available software for ripping (that I know of) give you any provision at all whatsoever to use a slower ripping speed than the maximum that the drive supports; they just use the maximum speed and fuhgeddaboudit.
EAC is one (www.exactaudiocopy.de)also many drives have utilities that allow you to fine tune ripping speeds, but these are very drive specific.
i have a drive that happens to be a very good ripper, with the ability to rip all my discs at high speed with no errors. the fact that it failed with all 3 dualdiscs is VERY significant - i've never seen it fail before, even with badly scratched discs.
My best ripper, an 8X Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, cannot rip at exactly 1X at its slowest speed. In fact, its slowest ripping speed turned out to be under 3X, according to my testing with EAC.
yeah - the drive probably has a "min read speed" - you may be able to find a utility on www.rpc1.org that allows you to step down the speed by altering the firmware, but don't hold your breath.you may want to know though - the reason 3X may be the min speed may be the drive is optimised to read at max accuracy at this speed. with modern drives, slower is not necessarily better - it may introduce more jitter and the motor is not optimised to spin that slowly :-)
... i *do* have a lot of experience in this, and i *do* know what i'm doing, so spare me the lecture.the point i am trying to make is that clearly the CD layer in a DualDisc is less robust than a normal CD, based on my experience.
and you need to realise there is a difference between copy protection, and the laser being unable to focus on the disc even to determine what type of disc it is. THAT behaviour has NOTHING to do with copy protection, and indicates that there is an issue with media compatibility.
i'm hoping i will be able to extract the data eventually using EAC in secure mode, but i will refuse to buy discs with compromised reliability. even if the discs play fine at 1X speed, what guarantee does anyone have that it's not interpolating data due to error correction? how many people have a player that report C1 and C2 errors on playback? a format that increases the chance of error correction is not a good format, and one that should be avoided by anyone who cares about preserving the integrity of recordings.
You state your problems to this group along with an irrefutable analysis of the problems. So, I'm not sure what you are looking to gain from us with your post. Enjoy.-AudioMiner
... next time before you post something that says "I disagree ...", make sure you engage brain into gear first.
Forums are all about expressing ideas, being open-minded, and learning new things.This topic is well-suited for an electrical engineer like myself.
... but if you had stopped to read my post a little more carefully, you would have realised your comments were not valid. it could have saved you from typing.and i just *love* it when guys like you try and trumpet your qualifications as somehow supporting a weak and irrelevant post in the first place. tell me again, exactly how is it that being an "electrical engineer" makes you an expert on dualdiscs? am i supposed to be impressed? i currently have someone who has a PhD in engineering reporting to me, and he's way more humble than you are.
"... but if you had stopped to read my post a little more carefully, you would have realised your comments were not valid. it could have saved you from typing."I guess I missed the fine print in the forum’s disclaimer that said you were the final word on what is and isn’t valid, weak, and irrelevant.
"tell me again, exactly how is it that being an "electrical engineer" makes you an expert on dualdiscs?"
First, you tell me again, exactly where I claimed that being an electrical engineer makes me an expert on dualdiscs.
FYI, no one in this forum is an expert in DualDisc – having had a hand in the r&d, design, and manufacturing. Ripping a DD to a PC is an extremely low metric to qualify as an expert.
"i currently have someone who has a PhD in engineering reporting to me"
Congrats, I guess.
"and he's way more humble than you are."
Well maybe. Is he more humble than you?
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=208709&highlight=15+minutes+of+fame&r=&session=
is this your best comeback, after a day and half? i noticed you've been very busy using the search key. don't you have better things to do with your time? obviously not. unlike you, my replies take 15 minutes to compose, not a day and a half.
*** I guess I missed the fine print in the forum’s disclaimer that said you were the final word on what is and isn’t valid, weak, and irrelevant. ***No, but your "weak and irrelevant" post is there for all to see, including yourself, since you gone from there into a silly crusade, and if your post had any merit you would have stuck to discussing the topic.
*** First, you tell me again, exactly where I claimed that being an electrical engineer makes me an expert on dualdiscs. ***
Quote from you: "This topic is well-suited for an electrical engineer like myself."
*** Well maybe. Is he more humble than you? ***
Actually, he is. He's a very nice guy. And he's definitely not a stalker.
and i am well known in my organisation for having a huge ego! so huge, that i get regular requests for media interviews, and invited to speak on conferences. it was nice for a while, but it's starting to interfere with my work, so i'm now declining most of them. i'm an invited speaker at a conference next tue, and that's it for this year i think.
believe me, fame is a two edged sword. i'm glad my parents shielded me from media interviews when i came top of the class in high school and won a scholarship, and also top of the class in my honours degree in university (of course, by the time i got top of the class in my masters degree, nobody really cared anymore). in my adult life, i find media interviews very stressful, i always have to watch my words very carefully.
> > my parents shielded me from media interviews when i came top of the class in high school and won a scholarship, and also top of the class in my honours degree in university (of course, by the time i got top of the class in my masters degree, nobody really cared anymore). in my adult life, i find media interviews very stressful, i always have to watch my words very carefully. < <Christine, I don't know what to say. As you know I work in the technical media. In this job I've met and interviewed many talented people. Including a few billionaires. But not ONE of these I recall would ever stoop to the sort of self-praising monologue that I read above.
I'm afraid to say, but you remind me of people at school who've had it drilled into them by their parents from an early age that if they didn't come top in class, music, art, etc. then they were considered failures.
For example, I recall numerous Hong-Kong Chinese students at my boarding school with no personality whatsoever, who just spent ALL their free time studying in the college library. The would never join in an any leisure activities, never spoke to anyone at lunch time (apart from their own group) etc. But sure enough, would come top in all the exams. How sad for them.
if you read what i said carefully, i *wasn't* praising myself. i'm just stating facts. there *is* a difference.i happen to be lucky in possessing good analytical skills and a near photographic memory, which is all you need to get good results (oh, and i'm very opinionated, which helps in English). i've never really studied all that hard, and once surprised a teacher who suspected me of cheating, by sitting down in front of him, and writing out his class notes verbatim from memory. and in university, the faculty wasn't very happy with me because i wasn't very good at attending classes (i was working "part time", but actually i was working nearly 30 hours a week). and i did lots of things outside school - for one thing, hanging around studios, playing music etc. :-)
the point of quoting all that was to show that academic excellence doesn't actually mean much in the real world. despite coming first in every course that i've done, i'm not the Supreme Ruler of the Galaxy, and i'm not even the top dog in my organisation. so i always laugh at people who trumpet their academic qualifications, as if that meant anything.
and the real point was basically to support my point about media interviews. journalists as you know write the story they want to write, which is not necessarily the story you want them to talk about. in hindsight, i'm glad i didn't get interviewed when i was in high school - i only found out about it afterwards because all my friends said "where were you? there's a reporter who has been looking for you for hours!" - in the end my name got mentioned in two papers, but they did a "profile" on someone else.
PS - i know about the tendency for Chinese students to focus on studying above anything else. I'm glad my parents weren't pushy - they basically said I can do anything I want, and I did. And you probably know that I definitely *don't* suffer from a lack of personality :-)
. . . I'll stop now. But this place ain't called the "Asylum" for nothing. ;-)
... Usually doesn't appear until the third or fourth post.
"Blah blah blah",
-Bob"What? you don't make sense.
"Blah blah BLAH blah!"
-Bob"No, you're still wrong."
"Blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH!"
-Bob, PhD.
i have a degree in engineering, so of course that makes me an instant authority on all matters relating to audio (even though my day job actually has nothing to do with audio)and of course, it means i'm part of the secret club that makes me an expert on all recordings and studio technology (even though i've never even stepped into a real studio in my life)
And *you* of course are a girl, which means you know nothing about any of this. nyah nyah nyah!
“i have a degree in engineering, so of course that makes me an instant authority on all matters relating to audio (even though my day job actually has nothing to do with audio)”Conversely, does not having an engineering degree and never having had a job "having anything to do with audio" make you an expert? More specifically, does your finance degree and UNIX administration background make you an audio expert?
And speaking of audio-on-the-job. The word ‘audio’ isn’t even mentioned one time in your resume.
http://members.value.com.au/christie/full.htm
... i'm not using my background or education to imply that somehow i'm "qualified" to discuss topics on this forum, unlike your pathetic attempt at one-upmanship.Congratulations on finding a resume of myself that is seven years out of date. A *lot* can happen in seven years :-)
I didn't find anything. You've provided us with links to your DVD reviews, magazine articles, etc. Remember?
but i didn't provide a link to that web site that you found, which means you actively went out hunting for it.
See bottom of page . . .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Christine Tham's Main living room System
Last Update: March 22, 2005 at 17:38:12 IP Address: 203.58.188.211
Amplifier: Denon AVC-A1SE+ (upgrade kit installed)
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): None
Speakers: 2 B&W CDM7NT front
1 B&W CDMCNT front centre
2 B&W CDM7NT surrounds
2 B&W DM601 Series 2 surround backs
1 B&W ASW2500 subwoofer
Sources:
CD Player/DAC: Sony SCD-XA777ES SACD player
Turntable/Phono Stage: Rega P3 turntable
Rega RB300 arm with 4mm spacer/extender nut
Dynavector DV-20xL low output moving coil cartridge
Audioquest Sorbogel mat
Dynavector P-75 phono amplifier
VPI HW16.5 record cleaner
Other Source(s): Nakamichi 680ZX cassette deck
Edirol SD-90 StudioCanvas
Other Accessories/Room/Misc.:
Speaker Cables/Interconnects: Neo-tech KS1426 four core 'flat' speaker cables
Cardas neutral reference interconnects between SACD player and receiver (2 channel only)
Other cables are generic OFC
Other (Power Conditioner, Racks etc.): Panamax MAX 6 Allpath power board
Tweaks: Dedicated 20amp power circuit from mains switchboard to system
'Furniture gliders' placed in various strategic places in equipment rackHalves of 'superballs' used to absorb vibration on turntable feet and centre speaker.
Centre speaker angled slightly upwards to compensate for reduced height
Thick curtains behind listening position to absorb/diffuse sound waves coming from front
Rug used to diffuse ceiling to floor hard reflections
As a result, room has relatively flat frequency response from about 40Hz to 20kHz apart from a notch at 120Hz.
Projector is gamma- and colour temperature-calibrated using SMART III, CC40R colour correcting filter and a lightmeter. Actual "real world" contrast ratio achieved is 400-450:1
Room Size (LxWxH): 4m x 6.7m/2 x 2.6m
Room Comments/Treatments: Only half the room used for system, the other half is used as living space
Music Preferences and Comments:
Music Used (Genre/Selections): all kinds ('from Palestrina to Pet Shop Boys') - baroque/classical/modern, contemporary jazz, some pop
System Goals/Comments: I like music to be reproduced as accurately to the source as possible
System Strengths: Speakers and sources
System Weaknesses: would prefer separate pre/pro and power amplification
Video/HT System: Integrated
TV/Projector: Sony VPL-VW11HT 1366x768 widescreen LCD Projector
Processor/Receiver/Amplifiers: as above
Speakers (Center, Surrounds, Sub): as above
Sources (DVD/VCR): Custom built HTPC:
- Antec Sonata case
- Antec SmartCool 120mm fan
- Zalman ZM400B-APF 400W power supply
- Gigabyte 8I915P Duo Pro motherboard
- Intel Pentium 4 530 LGA775 (3.0GHz)
- Zalman CNPS7700-AlCu CPU cooler
- Samsung 2 x 256 MB DDR2 533 RAM
- Leadtek WinFast PX6600TD 128MB video card (nVidia GeForce PX6600)
- Zalman ZM80D-HP VGA cooler
- JLMS XJ-HD165H DVD-ROM
- Seagate Barracuda SATA 7200.7 200 GB
- DVICO FusionHDTV DVB-T Plus digital TV/analog video card
- Apacer USB 2.0 multi-media card reader
- Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
- nVidia DVD Decoder 1.0.0.67
- Microsoft basic wireless keyboard and mouse, and MCE2005 remote control
Panasonic DVD-RP82 DVD-V/DVD-A player
Sony XLV837AS VHS VCR
Other HT Gear: Teac DV-B800 High Definition Digital Terrestrial Receiver
Comments on HT System: Used to review DVDs at www.michaeldvd.com.au
URL Link: http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/HT.html
Edit My System
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i never volunteered any personal information to AudioMiner, therefore he (i'm assuming it's a he) went actively hunting.similarly, my phone number and home address is available on the phone book, but if i don't volunteer my details in a personal conversation, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to look it up.
Geez, Martin, you're better than this. stop acting like a journalist (that's your day job). Assembling and twisting things to fit the story *you* want to tell may be acceptable in journalism, but not in real life.
... your habit of looking for other people's personal information on the internet is really creepy? i noticed you did a lookup on Michi as well.yes, i know you are accessing publicly available information, but your behaviour more reminiscent of a stalker than a professional engineer (if that's what you really are).
did you mum ever told you that just because you've discovered a way of looking up women's skirts in public doesn't mean you should?
I don't think there's anything unreasonable in what AudioMiner's done. (In fact -- kudos to him!) If you don't want people to see your CV -- out of date or otherwise -- then don't put it on the internet in the first place.The valid point he's making is that you work in a IT/finance oriented field (something like that) -- but whatever it is, it ain't audio related! Audio just happens to be your hobby. ;-)
... that CV is on an old isp, which i haven't subscribed to for a number of years. unfortunately, i can't delete or change the site. and that ISP is very good at ignoring emails.
You're not a woman, so you probably don't understand, but what AudioMiner is doing can be very disconcerting, and it's about time someone told him that. It's the equivalent of a guy looking up a woman's phone number from the phone book, and then calling her in the middle of the night. If a woman wants you to have her phone number, she will give it to you.Anyway, AudioMiner not even very competent or thorough in his search, and he uses an out of date web site to state: never having had a job "having anything to do with audio"
But if he had looked closely at that old web site, he would have realised that I did my honours thesis (for which I won the university medal) on computer music, and I have thanked the University of Sydney Music Department for access to their electronic studio. If he had searched even harder, he would have found out that I've done part time tutoring, and even harder still my software has been used to teach first year music students. If he was very clever, he would have found out my brother was quite a famous recording engineer, and have even played in a band. Audio may be "just" my hobby (and I prefer it that way, since it doesn't pay nearly as well as my current job), but it doesn't mean I don't have any experience in the field.
I don't believe Christine needs anything from us, she is just being honest with her experiences.
...but I think it would be worthwhile to find out if EAC secure mode fixes the problem. That way other inmates with the same issues could find the answer in the archives.One thing I've noticed about EAC (even in secure mode) when doing F6 (test and copy) is that it sometimes says "There were no errors" even when the test and copy CRCs don't match. Apparently the matching (or not) of the CRCs does not affect the status message. So if you're using the message as the final deciding factor of whether the rip is as good as it gets, it may be giving you a false sense of security. I always use "test and copy", then compare CRCs in the UI (or log file). In the UI, it should say "#" in the CRC column when test and copy CRCs do not match.
yes - i'll try using EAC tonite and will report if i have any success.in terms of EAC copies not matching, have you adjusted for drive read/write offset? if you haven't it could result in different checksums. another way of checking is by using accurip.
Yes, I've set up the read offsets using the AccurateRip plugin and the write offsets from the instructions at "The Coaster Factory".The "read/copy" CRCs are somewhat of a misnomer. They are actually both "read" CRCs - they just compare the CRC of the test read with the second read (the one used in the actual rip). So they should match even though there may be no read offset compensation at all. What the read offsets buy you is to have the CRCs match across multiple drives, even with "No use of null samples for CRC calculation" turned off. Plus of course getting the amount of silence at the beginning and end of each track exactly correct. The CRCs will usually match across drives with the "No use of..." option on, since the only difference across drives (in the absence of errors) should be in the number of null samples at the beginning and end of each track.
the "No error" message simply means the drive did not report any instances of uncorrectable read errors. depending on which read mode you select, the drive may NOT be correctly reporting read errors.i've also discovered you can get different checksums if gaps are not detected correctly. this doesn't affect the accuracy though.
offsets can impact the beginning and end of tracks, and therefore the CRC (i suspect it's a summation of track CRCs).
unfortunately the EAC parameters are a black art, and sometimes the only way to know which setting to set is if you have some knowledge of the drive firmware, which most of us won't have.
You are probably right to be paranoid. As for me, I'm happy to trust the "No error" message :-)
I use secure mode. To be fair, the only time I've seen CRC mismatches in secure mode was with a LiteOn 5235K combo drive, which apparently has a design problem with bad error detection. This problem showed up in the Nero CD-DVD speed Advanced DAE Quality Test as an error correction quality score that's not 100 percent. I dumped that drive like a hot potato and haven't seen this problem in secure mode since. Every other drive I've tested gets 100 percent in that Nero test, and none of these have had mismatched CRCs in secure mode.However, the CRC mismatch with "test and copy" still shows up in burst mode fairly often with every drive I've tried. I don't know if the error correction comes into pley in this mode of extraction or not though.
I've never tried the fast mode.
My player settings are:
Secure mode
Drive caches audio data - checked
Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information - checked
Allow speed reduction during extraction - checkedAnd the EAC option for CRCs:
No use of null samples in CRC calculation - uncheckedRip using "test and copy uncompressed" (F6) OR
"test anc copy compressed" (Shift-F6) (with external FLAC encoder configured as the compressor)
sorry, i meant which read command you are using (eg. Read MMC 1)i've found that different settings can dramatically impact read speed, accuracy and reporting :-(
also, which gap analysis method you are using? i've also found different settings (by trial and error) have significant impact on speed and accuracy.
The tooltip for the read command implied that this was pretty much a "go/no-go" type of option. I don't think I'll try all umpteen combinations though :-).Regarding gap detection, Method A seems to work best, both for my LiteOn 5239S and Plextor 740A. I've gone through a bunch of drives, and some worked better with Method B as I recall. I just put in Trout Mask Replica, which has 28 tracks, and check how long it takes. I've noticed big differences too.
I'm surprised that with ripping so many disks, that you haven't seen more problems. My two previous drives, a LiteOn 1213S and AOpen COM5232/AAH Pro, both choked on the Workingman's Dead HDCD (which is 79:51 long). The LiteOn wouldn't even recognize it, and the AOpen refused to rip the last track.
my DRU-500A drive did not work on autodetect, and hence forced me to experiment with other settings.*** I'm surprised that with ripping so many disks, that you haven't seen more problems. ***
Don't you worry, i've encountered my fair share of problems, just not with my latest drive (LG GSA-4163B) - this one's a real beauty and so far has been flawless except for the dualdiscs. i bought it on the strength of reviews that said it's the best ripper out there.
Liteon in particular seems to dislike a lot of discs (my DRU-700A is a liteon rebadged)
AMG review of Bruce Springsteen's new dual disc "Devils and Dust" mentions that he (reviewer) could not get his Window XP or Mac to recognize the CD side.The "CD" side of dual discs usually have the disclaimer that it is not CD-spec and "not all" CDP and DVD players will play them.
The fact people are reporting being able to play the CD side on "normal" CDP's just fine but not in computer drives tells me that it's copy protection at work, specifically engineered against computer drives.
With copy protected titles, typical behaviours are:
- tries to read TOC, but gets error
- reads TOC successfully, but track listing is corrupted
- reads TOC successfully, but tracks play with errorsOn these discs, the laser can't even focus. This seems to be a fundamental problem reading content, and not something to do with copy protection.
Maybe DDs all have tougher copy-protection measures on the CD side to fool CD-R drives?
... if a drive that successfully ripped every single CD in my collection (including some pretty dodgy scratched ones that i bought second hand) cannot even rip a single dualdisc out of the 3 that i bought WITH ERROR-CORRECTION TURNED ON and caching turned off, it means there is something fundamentally wrong.And this is a drive that has also been praised for very good audio extraction of copy protected titles.
That's it - i've learnt my lesson - I'm never going to buy a DualDisc again.
The DVD layers played back fine, but so what? I don't want to intentionally buy product that's defective or substandard. I'm definitely not putting these discs in MY audi cd changer.
i've now tried them on two other drives. These drives won't even recognise the CD layer at all, although they do recognise the DVD layer. In both cases, I can hear the laser making a sickening "thud" noise as it tries to focus on the disc to read the TOC and fails. Generally, the drives DON'T behave like this with copy protected CDs - they may not be able to rip successfully, but they have always managed to at least recognise the disc as a CD.So far, the score is 0 out of 3 separate drives reading 0 out of 3 brand new unscratched dualdiscs.
my only resort now is to go back to my "best" drive (the one that successfully ripped hundreds of CDs) and try and use EAC to read an image of the disc, and then burning a CD-R. if that fails, i will be very peeved off.
I can see now why so many manufacturers are issuing disclaimers. After all, it seems even if the player appears to read and play the disc, how much error correction is happening in the background? Who knows whether the output is bit perfect and free of jitter? And which manufacturer would want a customer getting an impression a player is poor sounding playing a dualdisc when perhaps it's not the players fault but simply too many uncorrectable errors marring the sound output???
To think that i paid US$16-17 for each of these discs, when I could have picked up the CD versions for US$12 or less???
. . . Remember when a Meridian advisory said that the DualDisc CD side work fine in all its machines EXCEPT its most recent ones which read the data in computer fashion like a CD-ROM drive, and which subsequently perform the D-to-A only when the data is in its large RAM buffer?Incidentally, my Denon A11 does just the same thing as the Meridian. Its "transport" section is basically a high-speed DVD-ROM / CD-ROM drive. In addition, the discs when played in it do NOT spin at normal speed: They spin a DOUBLE speed.
Basically, all the data goes into its 8MB RAM and subsequent error-correction & AL24 DSP etc. (prior to going to the DACs) is performed by a CPU in software. A positive effect of that is that it eliminates conventional jitter, because it first reads in batches of the data just like a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, and then plays it back like a WAV file directly from the RAM.
But this is where it falls-down with the copy-protected CD—sides of DualDiscs. My theory is that other DVD players which spin at single speed are far more likely to play the CD side just fine.
Note that in all likelyhood, Christine’s ‘drives’ which she refers to spin at much faster speeds than the "single-speed" of a regular CD player. This could contribute to the problems with the copy-protected DualDisc CD layers she is experiencing.
I’m sure her Panny DVD player would have had no problem at all playing the CD side of the DualDisc. (I also have a cheap Panny DVD player at home which has no probs with either side of a DualDisc.)
I have not bought one and I've noted that I won't. It's not just the problems you noted. Someone on another forum who had a very sensitive scale weighed various DualDiscs vs. regular CDs. From memory, the DualDiscs weigh on avg. around 20% more. Borrow the CDs and weigh them yourself. That's also why you see manuf. disclaimers. Manuf. make products to handle specifications of a format. I am not going to play Russian Roulette and see how well my transports hold up over time. DualDisc could have tested that but they just want to sell products.
...of some of the titles that you have on DualDisc. Some of the dual-inventory titles have both the CD version and the DualDisc version copy-protected.
these are the *only* discs so far where the drives refuse to focus. Not refuse to extract, refuse to focus.It's the "refuse to focus" that makes me suspect the unreadability is more than just copy protection - they are way out of spec, and therefore may impact audio quality even on players that can read them.
The CD version will be physically in spec with the CD spec. All the copy protection these days is software based and easily defeated. However, hardware problems are not easily defeated. The out-of-wpec DualDisc "CD" layer may have some problems on some drives that are insurmountable.
These days, the copy-protected CDs from Sony/BMG can be played on a PC only with certain media players, and can only be ripped with certain rippers and transferred only to certain MP3 players.
but it is not true. The "copy protected" CDs still contain the CD audio files, and you can still rip them, copy them, do whatever you used to do with them. These copy protected CDs try to install a driver on your computer to prevent the computer from accessing the CD audio files, giving you access to only the Windows Media or protected format files. But you can kill this driver or stop it from ever being installed in the first place. It's easy.
. . . I've played the CD sides in:-~ my Aiwa 'discman';
~ my old Technics SL-PS670A CD player;
~ 6-CD changer / Bose system of my 2005 Audi TT coupe;
~ Panasonic SC-DP1 CD/DVD/DVDA stereo micro system (in bedroom);
~ our rental SUV's CD slot-loader(!) when I was on business in Dallas;
~ my friend's BMW330ci car CD changer;
~ my Dell PC at work;
~ Pioneer DV-646A;
~ Pioneer DV-636D.And NO problems!! :0)
The ONLY player I have problems with the CD sides is my Denon DVD-A11.
But the DVD sides play fine in it.Also, how did the "slow" copy mode go? (you didn't say above)
b.t.w. You said: "The DVD layers played back fine, but so what? I don't want to intentionally buy product that's defective or substandard < <
There's nothing "substandard" about the DVD side. It's made to exactly the same spec as DVD-5. In short, you get a DVD-Audio for the same price as a DVD-Audio. I can't see the problem there. I feel I'm getting good value-for-money. And I'm getting DVD-As which otherwise would not have been made. Bring 'em on.
. . . substandard, and i think she has a valid point. it makes me wonder how much error correction is kicking in with these things.so far, i only have the NIN with teeth DD and it plays fine in my players, but i have to manually pull it out of my slot-loader in my car, because it's really thick and it won't eject all the way by itself. makes me nervous about putting it in.
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