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In Reply to: RE: New to DACs here...for better sound, get better CD player, or get a DAC for current player? posted by mtrot on October 04, 2016 at 18:00:59
You can't output DSD [SACD] from a digital output to a PC without hacking the Oppo and the 83 series aren't one of those Oppos.
Odds are your receiver doesn't get a DSD output from the Oppo. Can you see what the receiver is processing? The Oppo will usually convert and output 24/88 through the hdmi output.
All the above is interesting but you aren't going to change one component and have it sound like the system you referenced. You are using a home theater receiver, I don't know if you posted what speakers you are using.
You might be better off setting up a two channel system, using the front amps from your receiver to start with, if that is possible.
Start with a tube preamp and add a separate dac. I would have to see, I just looked you don't have a way to just use the amps.
So what you would have to do is set up a two channel system with a home theater pass through on the preamp. That way you could build a decent tube based system, with a separate dac. You can use the Oppo as a transport in both systems.
You are never going to get the sound you seek any other way. Let us know what speakers you are using and a budget. There is a lot of good used gear out there
Follow Ups:
Thanks, yes, my Denon receiver does receive the DSD from the Oppo, and will display "DSD". I just have to set the Oppo to bitstream DSD. It's not that my current setup sounds bad. It's just that the system I heard sounded so much more like live instruments, especially high frequency sounds like cymbals, as well as the scale of the sound. Granted the system I heard was using Legacy Focus SE speakers, and around $60,000 of tube amplifiers and a $6,000 DAC.
And, yes, I'm ready to re-think my setup, although I only have the one room and I love movies with Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio(which require HDMI to transmit) as well as both two-channel and multi-channel audio, so I need to figure out some way to have a combo system that does both well. I realize this will require compromises.
Currently, I'm auditioning and experimenting with the next step down from the Focus SE in the Legacy line, the Signature SE. The Signature SE is fantastic, but just does not have the visceral bass and pressure of the system I heard. I don't know what percent of that system's prowess is attributable simply to the larger size of the Focus SE, as opposed to the better quality of the associated components.
The dealer is big into tube amps and suggested I try out an integrated tube amp on the Signature SEs and see what I thought, and that I might be surprised how good the DAC in my Oppo actually is. So, I hooked it up and it is very impressive sound indeed, although I think I hear some "smearing" of the sound of complex piano passages. But it's not very compatible with achieving the combo HT/music outcome I am looking for.
Well, with the Legacy speakers, the only way I would use a tube power amp is if I bought one of their speakers with built in amps for the subs.
That picture is it your house? If so, what is that on the top shelf? I would get the Oppo on a shelf by itself, with cones or some form of isolation. More on that later.
For or more bass impact you could use a quality sub./subs with the Legacy Signatures.
Tube power amps are expensive to maintain. I would go with a really nice tube preamp and a solid state amp. Look at my main system, just click on my name. I would really consider used. You might be able to buy a pair of Focus used. They need careful setup or you will have bloated bass. And they need power with lots of current.
I have to get going, give us a full description of room size, budget, and we can go from there. John is right you don't need to spend that much on amps. As to the Tascam, I think John has stock in the company for all the times he has recommended it. It might be a great dac though, and it is reasonably priced. Lots of options.
> As to the Tascam, I think John has stock in the company for all the times he has recommended it.
> It might be a great dac though, and it is reasonably priced. Lots of options.
When I first bought my Oppo BDP-105D I didn't like it that much. I had been using a $3200 April Music Eximus DP1 DAC and the DP1 really sounded accurate and transparent. The Oppo impressed me as if it were voiced to sound like a tube component. It didn't reproduce my digital copies of vinyl accurately but it seemed to make CDs sound smoother and more pleasing. However, bass was not as deep and tight as I'd like. When I bought the TASCAM DA-3000 for the primary purpose of recording vinyl LPs, I discovered it sounded just like the Eximus DP1 DAC with respect to accuracy, transparency and tight, deep bass. That's when I decided to try it as a digital player and I have yet to discover anything negative about its sound quality. Of course, it might not be everyone's preference. YMMV
Best regards,
John Elison
"That picture is it your house? If so, what is that on the top shelf?"Yes, that is in my house. On the top shelf is a Krell FPB 400cx power amp, which is being driven by the front L/R channel pre-outs of a Denon AVR-X5200W receiver.
Yeah, I know the Krell is supposed to be a power house amp, but when I installed it in place of my McCormack DNA-1 power amp, I didn't really notice all that much increased bass prowess and/or impact, connected to my 1990s era Legacy Signature II speakers. Hence, my curiosity as to how I might obtain the sound I'm looking for.
So far, which I guess should be expected, the Signature SE speakers are not an improvement in the depth or impact of the bass over the Signature IIs, although they clearly are a large step forward in the definition of bass instruments such as an electric bass.
Now, a couple of wrinkles with respect to the Krell. Could it be that the Krell is not being properly driven by the Denon receiver? You know, input and output impedance and voltage, etc. Also, the Krell only has XLR inputs, so I had to buy a RCA to XLR adapter.
Further, the Krell info states that it should be used with a 20 amp circuit and plug, which I do not yet have installed. I do have it connected to a high quality 15 amp plug that I installed years ago.
One thing I need to reiterate is that in the system I heard with the Focus SE speakers, which had the awesome bass, the pre-amp and power amps were tube, albeit very expensive and powerful tube power amps. Hence, my curiosity about whether I should move in that direction.
Finally, regarding budget, I appreciate your info regarding the maintenance cost of tube power amps, as that will be a problem for me. Surely there is some solid state power amp that can be set up to grab hold of and really rock these speakers! I don't really have a set budget yet. I first need to figure out what type and level of components and setup are required to produce the kind of sound I'm looking for.
Edits: 10/05/16
Knowing you have the Krell amp look for a tube preamp with balanced [XLR] outputs and a home theater bypass input.
Now that we know you aren't using the Denon for power for the front channels, I would do two things, start with a tube preamp and second get a dac.
You still have not mentioned budget.
No connection so no conflict of interest, I just looked Upscale Audio has 3 Aesthetix preamps, 2 used, all at decent prices. And maybe you can get one even cheaper. Before PS Audio built their own preamp, that was the preamp Paul was using. Probably the Signature edition, but I think you can send it in later if you want that upgrade.
As to a dac, I don't like the Tascam not having a USB input, but you can buy a USB to coax converter. I am going on having read a lot of John's posts, that it is good. I personally would buy a PS Audio dac, one of the Directstreams. They will take any decent audio gear in trade. Go look at their dacs and trade in policy.
Do those two things, work on isolating your components and maybe upgrade cables, depending on what you are using now. You should be able to get everything but the deep bass. The Legacy speakers you have should do cymbals and decent detail.
Does this make sense?
You're right that it's probably better to buy a dedicated DAC instead of using a TASCAM DA-3000. I bought the DA-3000 because I wanted to replace my aging Alesis Masterlink with a modern digital recorder that used removable memory cards. I only discovered later that it had an excellent sounding DAC and that it could also be used as an autonomous digital player. I also already owned a Stello U3 USB-to-S/PDIF converter , which allowed me to connect my computer music server and play all the PCM digital formats up to 24/192.
On the other hand, if I were in mtrot 's position, I might consider something like an Auralic Altair DAC and streamer . He could keep his Oppo for playing SACDs and DVDs, but the Auralic Altair would do everything else. I'm even thinking of buying one myself, but I am currently doing everything I need with the equipment I already own so it's hard for me to justify the expenditure.
Best regards,
John Elison
> It's just that the system I heard sounded so much more like live instruments, especially high frequency sounds like cymbals, as well as
> the scale of the sound. Granted the system I heard was using Legacy Focus SE speakers, and around $60,000 of tube amplifiers and a $6,000 DAC.
You don't need $60,000 of tube amplifiers and a $6,000 DAC to make cymbals sound real. My system is one of the most transparent and realistic sounding system I've heard and my power amplifier is a $2500 Parasound Halo A21 with a $1000 TASCAM DA-3000 DAC. Of course, I do have a Vacuum Tube Audio preamp.
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Thanks, and that is encouraging to hear! That being said, if you happen to be attending Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this weekend in Denver, you ought to stop by the Legacy Audio/Raven Audio room and see if they have the full Raven amplification system set up with either the Focus SE or Aeris speakers. I'd be interested in your impression of the scale and quality of the sound. I badly wanted to attend RMAF, but family obligations prevent it this year.
BTW, do you have 5.1 or greater surround sound integrated into your setup in the pictures?
Unfortunately, I won't be going to RMAF this year. I've been to six or seven major audio shows in the past and my interest in attending audio shows has diminished.
My system is strictly stereo with subwoofers. However, it sounds awesome to me with DVD movies and I don't seem to need surround. I have a pretty good idea how my system stacks up against other more expensive systems because I have some audio buddies with systems twice as expensive as mine. I've also heard some very expensive DACs and I like my TASCAM DA-3000 as well or better than anything Ive heard. Therefore, I was just pointing out what might be a much less expensive DAC option if you don't want to spend the big bucks.
The major disadvantage of the TASCAM DA-3000 being used as a DAC is that it doesn't have a USB input, only coax and AES/EBU except for its professional SDIF-3 input for DSD. However, I use it as a digital player by putting my music on USB flash drives and plugging them into its front USB port. Another disadvantage is that it accepts up to 64-GB flash drives only, but it sounds so good to me that I put up with its limitations.
Best regards,
John Elison
Thanks! Good info.
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