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In Reply to: RE: Are CD Players Even Relevant Anymore? posted by jaydacus on September 10, 2016 at 07:42:35
" -Greater reliability." I love that optimism. I cannot tell you how many hours I spend each month trying to find out e.g why my DAC suddenly won't lock to the player output from my PC. Or why a file I can see in the database has not loaded into the player or when drives corrupt (happened this afternoon, fortunately fixable) etc, etc.
PC audio certainly has many advantages but round about zero when it comes to information about the music or tracks. Example: friend contacted me during the week confused at a download he was listening to. The music was very enjoyable but the stereo imaging was just weird. He knew that I had the original CD and wondered if that sounded just as strange. I pointed out to him that it was a "live" in studio recording and the session photos in the CD booklet showed why the imaging was weird with the microphones at the side of the band ( by convention) which meant that the bass and drums were situated in front of the (title star player) piano. Neither of which fact could be gathered from the download of course.
I would stick with my SACD transport were it not for the fact that I know that this is the last hurrah for it and that it cannot be replaced. So redbook is computerised just to preserve the transport for SACD duties. The only reason.
Follow Ups:
" I cannot tell you how many hours I spend each month trying to find out e.g why my DAC suddenly won't lock to the player output from my PC. Or why a file I can see in the database has not loaded into the player or when drives corrupt (happened this afternoon, fortunately fixable) etc, etc. "Wow, I can't explain why you seem to have so many computer audio related problems. You might want to revisit your entire setup. I've been running Mac Mini based computer audio for nearly a decade now, very reliably, and others have had excellent results with PC audio. My Accuphase CDP has sat unused for nearly a decade.
" PC audio certainly has many advantages but round about zero when it comes to information about the music or tracks. "
Really? All of my CD rips automagically retrieve information on the album, artist, track, and even album art over the internet with no manual intervention. Same for my downloads as they all include a good amount of metadata and quality album art. Roon takes that up a to a whole new level.
You gave one very isolated example of a friend not being able to understand why his download sounded weird and that was sufficient to claim that PC audio offers " about zero when it comes to information about the music or tracks "? Come on, that's a very weak argument.
About the only reason why I still have my Accuphase CDP is that it would hardly be worth my time to pack it up and sell it. It's not worth much on the used market. I brought it out recently mainly as a show piece to fill space in my equipment rack. ;-)
Edits: 09/10/16
You may be correct that I could improve my PC audio set up but it is not too unusual and pretty simple conceptually (USB hard drive containing the music library directly into JRiver MC22) using Win 10 OS ( Achilles heel?).
Yes, I too automatically or magically get track title, artist, cover art etc. from (in my case) DBPoweramp when ripping. However much of it is incorrect particularly in respect of classical music which often has the composer and artist confused. I wish that I really owned some of the recordings that it has suggested. Berlioz himself with the LSO playing the Symphonie Fantastique would be a treasure. Pity he died just before sound recording was invented.
Composer information for popular music often requires manual amendment as it does not reflect label copy and thus cannot be validated easily.
Movement titles, keys and tempo markings are more often correct than not although I suspect that for many recordings most of this field has been populated via some kind of publisher's database. This results in incredibly lengthy listings as the work is described not only in respect of its most common form (e.g. orchestral - a recording of which you have ripped), but also for every alternative instrumental combination approved by the composer. This requires manual amendment to become managable when displayed in the player's fields.
The cover art found is , again, pretty good. The main problem for me relates to where cover art used by one country ( usually USA) is supplied instead of that relating to the UK version that I own. Or (more often) where the cover art suggested is from a more recent box set whereas I have the earlier original single CDs. I would not use cover art for a version that I don't have. So I need to scan the CD art in these cases.
However things do get better over time and I have noticed that a far greater proportion of metadata is correct compared to a year or two back.
My point about information was not really concerned with this basic level. I am really speaking of the notes in the CD booklet which may give a background, historical and/or aesthetic, relating to the work concerned. Or information relating to who the producer and balance engineer were. Or when and where the recording was made. Not only is there none of this supplied when ripping or downloading, there aren't fields to display it in the player software (currently).
My biggest negative point with the metadata formats that currently exist is there seems no field for artist information beyond that of the title artist. So e.g. for jazz recordings with different line ups playing on various tracks there is nowhere to capture or display this information ( except via manual workarounds).
But you use Roon which fascinates me. I understand that this does provide some of this missing information. When I looked at their user forum several months ago there were quite a few complaints from classical music users that the promised information could be missing or incorrect. However this was in Roon's early days and maybe you can tell me if things have imptoved.
My main rservation to date about Roon (and the one that stops me subscribing) is that it really appears to have a main function of integrating the user's own collection with tracks chosen from Tidal. I do not subscribe to any streaming service so this isn't of interest. What would be your opinion on using it just for my locally stored music? NB: I don't have a vast collection. About 2-3K CDs ( and SACDs) of which so far around 500 have been ripped
Tom
Yep. But there is a lot of evidence to suggest that CD players will become rare with SACD players more so over the next couple of years. The OEM suppliers to the consumer brands that you and I recognise have either already pulled out of the optical disc world or are now are very limited in what they supply and to whom. Sure there are a few players still coming out but give it 24 months and I believe it will be like trying to buy a floppy disc player now.
So I could just listen to silver disc for the next few years until the optical unit in my player gives up with little chance of a fix. I am preparing for that day by ripping my CDs and preserving the life of my silver disc transport by using it for for SACD only ( forget ripping SACDs - the hurdles are now far too difficult to overcome. The required Sony PS players are now extremely difficult to find).
Hi, PAR,
You don't need a Sony PS player to rip SACDs. Here's a thread on how to rip from other players, the Oppo BDP-103 and BDP-105 being two of the most popular players:
Ripping SACDs
Post #129 is the most relevant for PC users, #127 for Mac users.
Regards,
Tom
Thanks Tom. That is very interesting. I might give it a go but the thought of buying an Oppo just to do it slows me a bit. I can't think of any other purpose that I would put the Oppo to. But it is certainly a possibility and an advance on the old PS strategy.
Regards
Pete
It's handy when there are babes on the cover.
Too distracting. I wouldn't hear a thing being played. '-)
LOT'S of "manual intervention" required!
OTOH, it's sometimes fun to go back and find the original LP album art to replace the sometimes ill-considered album art on a given CD reissue. But it sure is time consuming (not to mention that sometimes one's search for the original album art comes up empty or unusable)! ;-)
I initially thought of Roon as just an 'aggregator' of metadata to enhance your own music library along with Tidal integration. It is much more than that.I do not subscribe to Tidal but I find Roon to be very rich with metadata for my own library that resides on the Mac Mini. I also like the fact that I can quickly and very intuitively navigate my library using the Roon app on my iPad.
I am also able to 'redirect' where the music is to play. For example, I have the Mac Mini in my office directly attached to my DAC so I tell Roon to play through the DAC in my office. If I decide to go down to the basement, I can use the Roon App on the iPad to tell Roon to play to my Sonore microRendu network streamer. Or, I can have it play to the AppleTV box in our family room or the one in the bedroom.
I have very little experience with Classical music so I can't help describe how Roon handles that genre.
There's a lot more to Roon and the best place to come up to speed on it is on their website, or better yet just download it and play with it.
Roon album art view
This is the Mac Mini and DAC in my office. If I want to control my listening setup while in the basement I just take the iPad with me and I can play the music files from Mac Mini in my office and have it stream to the networked microRendu streamer in the basement. The iPad acts as the controller and navigation interface to the music library.
Sonore microRendu network music streamer in the basement system
Edits: 09/11/16
Abe, nice rug. I like the clear stand for the DAC too.I just replaced two tower PCs with an Intel NUC. It runs JRiver MC21 and provides music for 3 rooms. Dragonfly Red is visible behind the NUC. The actual music files are on a QNap NAS but they could be stored inside the NUC.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
Edits: 09/12/16
Nice setup! Which NUC do you have, if you recall? There are so many variations available. I haven't researched them much but I'm curious to know what the most 'powerful' version is w/o the need for a fan.
It's an Intel Skylake generation i5 with 2 memory slots, an m.2 SSD slot and a cage for a 2.5" 7mm thickness SATA drive.
It does have a fan but changing to a quiet fan operation profile in the Biosonly takes a couple of seconds. With that setting, the fan runs very rarely in normal use and when it does, I am not conscious of it for awhile. A simpler, easier, cheaper and more mainstream solution than putting a NUC board into a fanless case.
The rest of the spec:
- 2 by 8GByte ram kit
- Samsung 1 TB m.2 SSD
- Windows 10 Pro (OEM)
I chose an m.2 SSD to leave the SATA drive position open for more storage if needed. However, music and photos are now on a QNap NAS so I may never need more than 1TB of storage.
I carried over a Dell 24" monitor, a logitech wireless keyboard and mouse and an Audioengine AW1 wireless DAC.
Performance is quite snappy. I am not conscious of any lags relative to the previous Sandy Bridge i5 desktop with SSD boot drive.
I had intended to replace the dedicated MusicPC with a JRiver Id (atom based Intel NUC with Linux and JRiver installed.) However, I decided to try moving the MusicPC function onto my personal NUC. I haven't found any downside in terms of sound quality or functionality.
I am well into replacing all the computer and audio gear. So far I've replaced the WiFi router/firewall, 2 DACs, 2 PCs and a bunch of cables of various sorts. Parts for my wife's NUC are arriving today so I'll replace her desktop next week.
Still to be replaced: powered speakers in our home office, active 3 way speakers in our library and the TV.
I've been interested in good audio for about 50 years and am happy to do my own research and thinking. Quite different choices now from those I made ~10 years ago when I first went to computer audio.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
Thanks for the detailed response. Nice!
Where did you get that acrylic shelf that your Mytek DAC sits on? I could use one for my Raspberry Pi.
Cut-Throat
Try this one from OWC:
The Newer Technology NuStand mini
It's a plastic picture or nicnack stand/easel. I think my wife got it at an arts & crafts store called Michael's. I've seen similar items at places like Target.The other stands that I like are from:
Anker
iClever
You can search Amazon.com for "Anker stand" or "iClever stand", or a broader search on "smartphone stand", "tablet stand", "iPhone stand", or "iPad stand".
Edits: 09/12/16
Looks Great !
Cut-Throat
Nice looking setup! I like the acrylic on acrylic.Is the Raspberry Pi up and running and streaming over your network?
Edits: 09/14/16
Yes, with the PiCorePlayer, it is about a 10 minute job..... A lot easier when I configured a Pi about 4 years ago......I am pretty sure the New Pi is my main streamer now, running LMS. I guess you could say it's my 'Main Squeeze' now! :-)
Cut-Throat
Edits: 09/14/16
Just got back from Michael's and Target.. They don't carry anything like that...If you get a chance, ask your wife where she picked it up...Thanks.Also, How thick is the Acrylic Material on the shelf you have?
Cut-Throat
Edits: 09/12/16
Sorry you struck out on the picture stand / easel. It's a pretty common item. Another source for little boxes and stands is the Container Store or possibly Bed Bath and Beyond if you have those in your area.That thick acrylic stand that fits the Mac Mini below it came from MacSales.com. See the link below.
NewerTech NuStand Mini. Monitor Riser designed for the Apple Mac mini. $25
Edits: 09/12/16
I saw a lot of Acrylic Risers on-line, but most were very small for jewelry etc. Most were only 1/8 thick and pretty flimsy....And most all were the wrong dimensions. The one that you have is the perfect dimensions for me.
Cut-Throat
nt
Cut-Throat
Abe, that is a really useful response for which I thank you. I think that I must give Roon a trial. I was impressed by one of their screenshots of a classical album page which actually showed notes about the piece recorded and not just the composer.
Unfortunately the price is now comparatively steep for us in the UK due to the drop in the value of the pound v. USD. When I looked when Roon was introduced I thought OK but it is now 90 gbp per annum. The value of this to me would have to be created entirely from the improved information available as I have no use for the multizone/play point feature nor integration with Tidal. In my small place if I want to hear music in another room I just leave the door open :-). So if I do trial it then it has to be very hot indeed to open my wallet.
I do get the feeling from their webpages that the design of Roon is ideally for viewing on a big wide screen. My dedicated music PC is a 13" laptop which I chose for size and weight as it sits on top of my CD transport (neither switched on in tandem of course). This is too small I think for the standard Roon view. In fact it is too small for me whatever I have displayed on it as I losing my sight as I get older. But I see that you run it in a headless configuration with an i-pad for control. Once again Roon impresses me by having an Android remote app that I can use on my phone and tablet. I can get closer to these screens than the PC and more or less see what is happening. I hope that the screen design for these devices is as impressive as the full screens shown on the website. Only one way to find out, install it (once I have got my head aroubd the price).
NB: I love those acrylic supports that you have for your DAC and the Sonore.
I wanted to mention that Roon works great on a 13" screen. The screen on my iPad Mini is only 7.9". I played with Roon on my 13" MacBook Pro laptop and there's plenty of screen real estate. There's a setting in Roon that allows you to show fewer albums so the size of each album on-screen is larger, or you can set it to to show more.
Unable to connect to DAC? Data corruption? Huh? I've never experience either in twenty years' of computer use.
Periodically, however, I need to power cycle my three access points used for bedroom (largely video) and garage access. The main system is hardwired so it always works.
nt
Cut-Throat
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