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In Reply to: RE: It is pointless to contiinue posted by E-Stat on August 22, 2016 at 09:55:03
I've been an IT professional for nearly 30 years.Explain to me why users who have both the microRendu and the SonicOrbiter report better sound with the former, with the same OS.....
Because I disagreed with you, my point should be dismissed, and the discussion needs to end? So, you are always correct?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 08/22/16Follow Ups:
what you consider to be a "general purpose" computer. ARM processor based computers most certainly fit that label as opposed to ASICs.
37 years for me.
""ARM processor based computers""I never said that.. ever....
I said ARM processor board. HUGE difference.....
In order to have a multi-function computer, you need a heck of a lot more than a processing board. As I've said too many times, you can't run Photoshop on a Schlage internet enabled door lock.
""a programmable electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Mainframes, desktop and laptop computers, tablets, and smartphones are some of the different types of computers. ""
Glad that you bought & are enjoying the microRendu.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 08/22/16 08/22/16
I said ARM processor board. HUGE difference.....
There's not a huge difference between the ARM processor and the processor board. The Freescale i.MX ARM processor that is used in the microRendu has pretty much everything on-chip but it needs a board to sit on. The processor is often referred to as a System on a Chip (SoC). At the tiny board level it is referred to as a System on a Module (SoM).
"The Freescale i.MX ARM application processors are SoCs (System-on-Chip), that integrate many processing units into one die, like the main CPU, a video processing unit and a graphics processing unit for instance. The i.MX products are qualified for automotive, industrial and consumer markets.
Many devices use Freescale i.MX ARM processors, such as Ford Sync, Kobo_eReader, Amazon Kindle, Sony Reader, SolidRun SOM's (including CuBox), some Logitech Harmony remote controls and Squeezebox radio, some Toshiba Gigabeat mp4 players.
Sounds pretty general purpose to me until they're turned into dedicated products.
By their very nature microprocessors are "general purpose" and can be used as such or turned into products with a single purpose, like the examples above. But they all begin life as general purpose computers.
Creating these streamers with hardwired discrete logic, ASICs, or FPGAs would be incredibly difficult and cost prohibitive depending on volumes. And even these now incorporate microprocessors and memory onboard.
Why would a low-volume audio manufacturer reinvent the wheel when there are several 'general purpose' computers out there that run existing popular operating systems for existing popular audio applications?
It's a fricking computer! ;-)
No it is not...And that is the problem. What's needed for a computer is more than RAM and a processor....
You need an input/output device...
Here is the definition of computer:
" noun
1. a programmable electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Mainframes, desktop and laptop computers, tablets, and smartphones are some of the different types of computers."You called the ARM processor board a "system." You use this as a tool to denigrate the importance of the other hardware involved.
A system isn't a system, until you include an input methodology, and a way to view/display the output: (exactly in the def. above). I agree that the processor, and the act of processing is the "heart" of the system. But it isn't the COMPLETE system.
You cannot "use" the processor board without an OS, input/output as described in the above def.
These are indisputable FACTS.
Finally, a system may first be designed starting with the processor, or, - in the case of the microRendu, - the power/NIC/USB output board may designed first with the plan of using the ARM processor board later.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 08/22/16
A computer is a device that can be instructed to carry out an arbitrary set of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. Their ability of computers to follow a sequence of operations, called a program, make computers very flexible and useful. Such computers are used as control systems for a very wide variety of industrial and consumer devices. This includes simple special purpose devices like microwave ovens and remote controls, factory devices such as industrial robots and computer assisted design, but also in general purpose devices like personal computers and mobile devices such as smartphones.You called the ARM processor board a "system." You use this as a tool to denigrate the importance of the other hardware involved.
As stated earlier the ARM processor is defined as a System on a Chip (SoC) and the ARM board a System on a Module (SoM). Go look it up on the SolidRun website and elsewhere.
I didn't denigrate the importance of the other hardware in the mRendu. I like my mRendu. In fact I said it was clever design with a good amount of engineering behind it. But this is not always the case as many manufacturers do little more than stuff an off the shelf board in a fancy case. I credit the mRendu team with going the extra mile in this regard.
You cannot "use" the processor board without an OS, input/output as described in the above def.
It runs a commonly available OS called Linux. I already stated that. The user input/output is in the form of a web browser user interface (BUI) on your networked PC/Mac served up by an open source (most likely apache) web server running under Linux on the mRendu ARM processor. Additionally, the mRendu input is the Ethernet network, the output is USB.
I can' help it if you are too dense to understand or simply enjoy arguing over what most folks acknowledge as fact.
Edits: 08/22/16 08/22/16 08/22/16 08/22/16
""As stated earlier the ARM processor is defined as a System on a Chip (SoC) and the ARM board a System on a Module (SoM). Go look it up on the SolidRun website and elsewhere.""
I have: NXP-Freescale iMX6 Family based products... chips.
The stripped down Linux OS is in the SD card on the microRendu. Are you saying that there is a legitimate running version of Linux on the ARM board?
""I can' help it if you are too dense to understand or simply enjoy arguing over what most folks acknowledge as fact.""
LOL, most folks don't know either way, and you're trying to bamboozle them by asserting something that only YOU erroneously attempt to assert, - beyond reason & logic.
""I didn't denigrate the importance of the other hardware in the mRendu. I like my mRendu. In fact I said it was clever design with a good amount of engineering behind it. But this is not always the case as many manufacturers do little more than stuff an off the shelf board in a fancy case. I credit the mRendu team with going the extra mile in this regard.""
I do not have any issue with what you say above, it's not what you implied earlier in the thread though....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have: NXP-Freescale iMX6 Family based products... chips.
The ARM processor chip IS a System on a Chip (SoC) and when it is placed on a board with RAM and other components it's called a System on a Module (SoM). The headers on the SoM are what couple it to the Swenson designed carrier board that contains voltage regulators, USB hub, crystal oscillator, Ethernet port, USB port.
Why do you argue this point when you can look it up for yourself? Or do you not understand the slight distinction?
The stripped down Linux OS is in the SD card on the microRendu. Are you saying that there is a legitimate running version of Linux on the ARM board?
Yes, of course!
Man, you need to get educated on basic computers 101. Yes the SD card holds the OS and software code but it boots and executes (runs) on the ARM processor. As an aside, the OS could have been flashed to the ARM's own internal NVRAM but their design choice was to place it on the SD card. One advantage there is that if the OS/software gets corrupted or ever needs updating you don't send the entire mRendu back, you simply insert a new SD card.
LOL, most folks don't know either way, and you're trying to bamboozle them by asserting something that only YOU erroneously attempt to assert, - beyond reason & logic.
Most folks get it. I'm not bamboozling anyone, but those who can't grasp basic principles may think they are being bamboozled.
Don't you have a job? Is this all you do all day> If not why don't you apply for Stereophile. You certainly fancy our self a (pseudo) reviewer.
Hmm, why don't you ask Sordidman the same question?
If you follow these 'arguments' with an open mind rather than kissing up to your buddy all the time, you might learn something. Or maybe not. That's fine.
Sordid..why bother?
Wisely, John doesn't post here anymore.My corrections might inspire folks to get a better perspective on the product's value uncolored by Abe's false claim that John's board & product design has little to do with the overall SQ of the product.
Whenever it comes to computer designer vs Audio designer, - Abe has a bizarre investment in denigrating the latter.
This is odd considering that computer designers HATE the very thing that audiophiles are all about. In any case, those folks at SolidRun are awesome for selling and separating out processing from the rest of the computer: this will open a lot of doors for audio manufacturers to build better sounding products without all of the noisy baggage of PCI buses, video sections, PCI buses, hard drives, CD-Rom drives, & other components that are great & convenient for running a multitude of programs, yet problematic for high end audio.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 08/22/16 08/22/16
Abe's false claim that John's board & product design has little to do with the overall SQ of the product.
Don't put words in my mouth. I said no such thing. You concoct this crap to create an argument that's not there. I like my mRendu and I credited the design team for their engineering work.
Like I said elsewhere, me thinks you just enjoy arguing.
Abe's false claim that John's board & product design has little to do with the overall SQ of the product.
Perhaps that is true, but I don't recall that sentiment having been made. That is certainly not my take on it.
I suspect that a large amount of the overall performance is due to his clever, thorough and elegantly simple design. There was simply no need for him to reinvent the wheel and design his own computer system with processor, memory, local storage and a laundry list of available I/O ports. No more than it would be for an amplifier designer to create their own output devices or passive components.
Naturally, there are exceptions like when Nelson Pass commissioned SemiSouth to build his custom SIT output devices. :)
""Perhaps that is true, but I don't recall that sentiment having been made""
He implies this regularly: he's not going to come out and say so directly. But, referring to John's overall design, and also his board as "carrier" board, as well the ARM as the processor board as "the system." The processor chip is not what the layperson would "call" a computer, and doesn't meet the definition.
"I suspect that a large amount of the overall performance is due to his clever, thorough and elegantly simple design."
Yes, that and in addition, the design to leave off the items that are noisy and the use of separate galvanically isolated components, and integration of the some of the Regen tech in the USB stage. I don't know what you mean about "reinvent the wheel" as some elements about the design are quite unique, and others are necessary components. But yeah, pretty great design.
Thanks again for your comments.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
No problem. There's no reason for anyone to get uppity.
But, referring to John's overall design, and also his board as "carrier" board...
I find that to be an elegant and practical solution using a "carrier board". Modular design allows for either to be upgraded separately over time as necessary.
...as well the ARM as the processor board as "the system."
I think that is an accurate characterization of a SolidRun iMX6 SOM since it contains a memory subsystem, power management subsystem along with networking and system interconnectivity.
The processor chip is not what the layperson would "call" a computer, and doesn't meet the definition.
No disagreement there. An A9 Cortex processor alone is the size of a microSD card or a fingernail - quite the contrast to the iMX6 system linked above. Do you notice the physical difference?
and the use of separate galvanically isolated components, and integration of the some of the Regen tech in the USB stage
All found on his proprietary carrier board separate from the computer system proper. Once again, I think that is a great application of practical packaging.
I don't know what you mean about "reinvent the wheel"
There was no need for John to devise his own computer system consisting of processor, memory, local storage and I/O ports. The SolidRun system is readily available at low cost.
What he did is leverage existing technology - a general purpose computer system - and add what is truly the ASIC part - application specific parts along with chosen OS parameters.
Everyone that i work with would call the ARM a processing board.
One would still need an input device & an output device to meet the definition. Processing files may be the act of computing. The heart of the system is not the whole system. A calculator is more of a computer according to the dictionary.
I can see SolidRun's marketing team referring to the board as a system, as it has more than just a processor. But without the rest of the components that make up a mainboard, even a razberri Pi mainboard: it takes more to make it a complete computer as defined in dict.
Cheers
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
One would still need an input device & an output device to meet the definition.
Those are provided by the wealth of I/O ports supported by the board.
Do tell use what input and output devices were found on ENIAC?
Would you consider the venerable IBM 370 a "general purpose computer"? If so, tell us what input and output devices were standard with it? I'm not talking about external 3780 boards used to communicate with the block mode terminals. Nor or any specific output devices. At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, they were numerous.
Thanks,
"Those are provided by the wealth of I/O ports supported by the board."
Exactly. So the statement that you just agreed to is the same as the dictionary's: meaning that the board in & of itself is not a computer until you add on the I/O ports supported by the board....
Not sure if you were serious about the ENIAC.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
The fact that you don't answer any of my questions is quite telling. You don't get it.
You keep talking about the "dictionary definition" and yet you've never referenced it. Quote your source!
Do (attempt to) answer any of my many questions. Are they beyond your level of comprehension? Do you understand the difference between an A9 Cortex chip and a SolidRun iMX6? Ever heard of ENIAC? Ever heard of IBM System/370? It would seem not.
In any event, it is apparent to all that you are absolutely clueless as to the history of computer technology and its terminology.
I posted the dictionary definition above. Here it is again.
noun
"a programmable electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Mainframes, desktop and laptop computers, tablets, and smartphones are some of the different types of computers. ""You agreed to this, (the above isn't my definition) and you said "supported I/O Devices" are necessary to make the ARM Processor & RAM board be a computer.
When one buys the board, they buy it without any I/O devices.I am happy to answer your question, - but I don't see why the history of tech, or computing has to do with meeting the criteria of how the dictionary defines the device. The ARM processor board comes with no I/O devices.
The ELIAC was a computer that calculated Artillery firing tables. I honestly don't know how the results were displayed, I always assumed that the computer used some sort of electromechanical solenoid that tapped out numbers that a person actually wrote down, or was set to "print" via some sort of teletype. The input would be the person throwing the switches/or numbers.
Calculators...
In any case, no history matters one fig on the basis of whether or not a device is, or is not a computer. A definition is a description of what a thing is to the exclusion of all other things.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 08/22/16
Your overly pedantic and childish rant has entered the absurd.
I posted the dictionary definition above...
And you can find many more truer definitions when you Google the term. Begin with what you find at the top of the page. Then go here , here , here , here and here . Note the absence of the word "display" in all of those. Why is that? For starters, computers were computers for decades before anything was "diplayed". Video display terminals (VDT) weren't introduced until the late 1960s.
I honestly don't know how the results were displayed
Obviously, because they were not. They were sent to an external printer. Was the ENIAC (with an "N" for numeric) a computer without an attached printer?
Of course it was.
Today, modern data centers use large numbers of virtualized blade servers. The software development firm where I work uses that same approach. If you were to enter the equipment room, would you find a row of monitors and keyboards? No. Our IT staff accesses them remotely using RDP applications. Are these virtualized servers computers even if they don't display anything?
Of course they are.
The SolidRun iMX6 computer found in a µRendu uses the same approach as modern blade servers. Is that computer a computer?
Of course it is.
Presumably, you already have seen it's output:
In any case, no history matters one fig on the basis of whether or not a device is, or is not a computer.
Understanding the past is only required when you attempt to attach an artificial constraint that didn't even exist when computers were introduced.
The print out is what is meant as "display" in the definition. Anything that shows the results of the act of the computing.. Of course it means remote viewing on another computer etc..That is the beauty of the definition. The definition that I posted is great. Again, some of the BEST definitions are the simplest. But more importantly it is the "top of the page" definition that is found in dictionaries, and it is the "common" usage of the term. Is there a different standard for computers than other definitions? Would a more strident definition cover certain calculators, & other computing devices?
Sure, the ENIAC is a "type" of computer like the calculator is another type, and the Razberri pie is another type. In the ENIAC, there was an input and an output, The "display" can be a sequence of flashing lights, a solenoid Morse code clicker, a printer...
The word "display" has nothing to do with video monitors. It means "visibly/seeing the results" of the process of "computing."
The "better" definition of a chair doesn't require 4 legs as part of it. That would eliminate all those chairs that have one pedestal type leg.
I understand that you got frustrated. I would be grateful if you didn't let that turn into insults or an insulting tone. As stated in any definition, any particular computer can only be an EXAMPLE in the definition. A typewriter is NOT a computer, because it does not perform "mathematical or logical programmed operations." Even though it does have an input and an output.
This ARM board is not yet a computer, (it only has potential). It becomes a computer when you add "one of the many supported" I/O devices, - like John's board.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 08/23/16
But more importantly it is the "top of the page" definition that is found in dictionaries...
Not at the top of my page nor not with my unabridged Webster. :)
Of course it means remote viewing on another computer etc..
What then is this Sherlock?
I'll be happy to answer if you quit deleting your posts
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Of course you can essentially build your own Bryston Pi by buying your own Raspberry Pi board, pick up a HiFiBerry DAC Pi HAT, micro SD card and power supply all for little under one hundred bucks. Then flash your micro SD card with the latest PiCorePlayer 3.0 and boom you've got your very own Bryston Pi. If want to get really fancy you can also add a Pi Touchscreen.
Hiya,
Yep. All cool stuff. The philosophy underneath a lot of this stuff is stripping away the unneeded components, - and therefore noisy, or even components that suck up resources. The results to do this is clearly demonstrable. I have to wait a while, but I will be getting a SonicOrbiter, (based on QUBOX), to compare to the microRendu.
Great times that one can now break down what used to be a large, traditional mainboard, (with a separate RAM/Processor board), and just add in as many or few other components that you want/need.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I hear you but you are banging your head against a stone wall trying to correct posters are totally disingenuous with their never ending, circular, childish arguments. One of the worst traits of folks here is theThere are some here who SO want to be audio designers and engineers and they just don't have the chops, so they get off on cutting down talented individuals who have the guts to hang up their shingles and produce excellent products that serve the computer audio community.
There is one in particular who continues to project his price point comfort on others and to smugly dismiss valid designs because of the fantasy narrative that it can all be DIY's for a few hundred bucks. Not.
Edits: 08/22/16 08/22/16
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
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