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People often say that digital advances quickly and every now and then there are cheapish equipment that get super reviews and web opinions.
I'm currently using an Esoteric K-03 as source (both as player and as DAC for my SOTM SMS-100/iFi setup). It is a little old but is still decent sounding imo. I'm wondering if I am to add a new DAC to my system, how far do I have to go money-wise to get a real improvement. People say great things about those DACs from Schitt, Auralic, Questyle, etc. in the giant killer category, and a little higher up, things like Chord Hugo TT and Exogal. Are these "qualified" to make an improvement, or do I really have to spill money for the more expensive stuff (like say PS Directstream, MSB Anaolog DAC, etc, plus other things I don't yet want to pay for)?
What are your thoughts?
Thanks.
Follow Ups:
how far do I have to go money-wise to get a real improvement.That's not the right question IMHO. You have to audition the gear in your system. I have a few excellent examples of less expensive DACs sounding better than more costly models.
To my ears the $1200* PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC sounds better than:
- Ayre QB9-DSD DAC [$3500]
- Luxman DA-06 DAC [$5000]
- Wavelength Brick USB v3 DAC [$2000 w upgraded power supply]
- Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC [$1600]*as low as $699 with the trade-in of the previous gen PS Audio DAC. I have owned all of the above examples in my system (and a few more not mentioned). Sound quality is not proportional to price. Same experience with other gear I have owned over the years.
Edits: 08/10/16
Hi !
it is interesting that this question pops up in the digital section.
I remember the story of a little dac ... the Art Di/o.
Slightly modified it won a best sound of the show at one Ces years ago.
I guess the playback system was very highly resolving and this speaks a lot for the quality of that little dac when fed with a good digital signal.
The transport was a massive Krell I think.
Digital is a strange beast.
So it could be that some very cheap products do sound excellent.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 08/09/16 08/09/16
and compare to the SQ in my set up with my DAC so I don't know.
I do know that in my system the Schiit Bifrost (now with multibit upgrade) is a really nice DAC for the price. At some point you have to consider where resources into your system give you the most bang for the buck in SQ improvement/enjoyment, if you are going to keep pouring $$ in.
I'm going to jump in with two components.
My Technics sl 1200 turntable for vinyl... Kab mods.
And my Kora Hermes 24/192 triode dac .. Monarchy phased lock loop digital interface processor that took feeds from DVD and blue ray machines as well as Sony cdpcx jukeboxes. Killer products...
Regards,
/// Tim W. ///
Still only $1000 direct from Monarchy. The M24 used the amazing BB PCM63 with the BB DF1704 and a tube output (no opamps). The NM24 uses the BB PCM1704 and DF1704 and has both tube (no opamps) and SS outputs.
Extremely musical DAC that is also open and detailed. Benefits from having a partnering Monarchy DIP and the Monarchy Audio power regenerator.
Which I'm currently using with a Pioneer 588 CD/DVD player purchased from Audio Advisor 16 years ago.
Nt
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Nt
I would equate the 3400 to today's PS-1 according to the press.
I along with too many others read Sam's review. I headed right over to my local Radio Shack, bought one early afternoon and returned it 3-4 hours later.
I had CAL DX-1 CD player, the bottom of CAL's line. The 3400 may have been a good portable player, but it did nothing impressive in my, at that time mid-fi system. I think I had the top of the line, at that time, Rotel 990 preamp with either a Dynaco 400 or Crown DC300, speakers were Klipsch LaScala or AR LST. I had both amps and I either played separately or together, the LST's sat on top of the LaScalas.
My regret is that I never matched up a tube amp with the LaScalas. I was just transitioning from Stereo Review specs are everything, to actually using my ears. But the day of the 3400 was all ears, and Sam.
I may of had the CAL Gamma dac, but didn't have the cables to try the 3400 with the dac.
I read Sam, I liked Sam, but I never trusted his reviews after that. It did nothing well, plugged in to an actual audio system. It may have been an above average portable, I never owned one to compare it to.
And then all the tweaks, pwer supplies to improve it. Was not money I wanted to spend on such a poor starting point.
I don't know about giant killers, but the increments between really good and great get a lot more expensive when you reach a certain point. That last jump can be quite costly.
Yes, a piece of crap indeed. Only I kept mine in an attempt to find the magic. Ended up giving it away I think. Eventually replaced it with a Parasound CDP which was a welcome relief. The only thing I could figure was there may have been a few different contracted manufacturers of the 3400 and some of us ended up with duds.
Thanks! for sharing- Jeff.
we know that these guys receive "rewards" for favorable reviews.
Are you high? They don't get rewards. That's so goofy.
sure they do, I did not want to mention terms like, payola or kickback...
Like you know.
The CD-3400 inverted polarity. Not a minor annoyance IMO. The mods I had done to mine included correcting that deficiNcy. I also had the outboard power supply. Of course you hVe to tweak the thing. You have to tweak everything!. The tweaked/modded 3400 was actually a very musical sounding player. Period.
Sam, didn't mention polarity in his great discovery article. At least I don't remember it being mentioned.
I can reverse polarity on my current dac, and it is subtle. The 3400 just wasn't competitive with even the most basic CD player.
I heard nothing that made be think this has potential. My DX-1 was so much better.
I actually owned the 3400 and can report it sounded excellent. It's a Giant Killer. You know, like the Oppo 103. Like anything else these things MUST be modded and tweaked to sound their very best. Isn't that what high end audio is all about?
Trust me, the Radio Shack CD-3400 in it's stock form reverses polarity.
Excellent points! Dave and Jeff.
I still have mine. I have been thinking about hooking it up just to see. It served its purpose well when it was my first CD payer.
Dave
I would be interested in reading your thoughts about the 3400- Dave.
Was it really "that" good way back...?
I don't think it was as good as the hype, but at the RS sale price, it was a very good player for the money. I did not do any of the mods, because, with the price of the mods included, you would have been better off with a similarly priced Denon or Sony ES player, which also included a remote.
Dave
I got mine on sale too, and agree with you, "a very good player for the money" is what it was, but nothing more than that. Edit: As an example, it was dull and rolled off compared to my JVC XL-Z1050TN player. And that included when running the 3400 with an external, higher current battery supply.The only reviewer I remember having the courage to point that out during the frenzy was the later burned at the stake, Corey Greenberg.
Sam Tellig seemed to be the main hype-maker for the 3400, but then he did that a lot, in my opinion.
Edits: 08/09/16
I am sure he knows what good sound "is" but he enjoyed the absurdity that the thing could sound as good as it did. I do not remember whether he went further out on the limb than that.
I used one for a car system and it worked just fine until it was stolen out of my car in NYC.
That's probably true, and I remember reading his review as somewhat tongue in cheek when he pondered if the 3400 was "Better than the Levinson?" which was a $25,000 two box CD player.
I can cut him some slack for having some fun, but he also did a frenzy whip with a B&K amp that was hand tweaked (bias increase?) for him by B&K, which made it sound better. Tellig admitted it in his review, so it wasn't a credibility issue, but B&K balked at doing the tweak for the masses (I'm guessing because of reliability issues).
So his review was essentially a "Here's a giant killer amp, but you can't get one like mine", which, for me anyway, put Tellig into the hype category.
My CD-3400 saw relatively little use, but just stopped working one day. I still have it in a box somewhere.
Generating hype was how Sam made his money. I don't ever remember him recommending something that was bad, but he did overpraise things. Sill, I generally found him entertaining and did buy somethings that he recommended, that I liked quite bit. I agreed with his premiss (at the time) that you did not have to spend the value of a car to get good sound. I still think you don't, but the market has polarized between dirt cheap and very expensive since then.
Dave
Good point!
IN THEIR TIME, these were definitely giant-killers. The Absolute Sound even got into the act re the DV-414 and it certainly wiped out my $3700 Conrad Johnson transport and DAC combo. Depends, of course, on what dragons you're trying to slay and for how long. Long-term dependability isn't a given :-)
It was AWFUL back then so I would imagine it is even AWFULLER today!
If I had an ESOTERIC K-03 I would NOT be shopping for a new silver disk spinner or a new DAC.
The Philips CDC-935 CD changer has as good of a DAC section as anything ever produced.... The catch is you need to clean up the analog output section to realize that.......
I've been using this particular player as a CD source for over five years.
Yes, the analog section often separates the good from the great. I have had a few digital "overachievers" like cheaper Cambridge and mytek for other proposes before. While they easily offer better detail than older equipment, they fall short on musicality vs older but higher end equipment. However, that was several years ago, and I wonder if things have evolved
Edits: 08/07/16
Nt
.
..."Jolly Green" ($$$) Giant Killers.
JGGK's might match or beat most of the competition in the next highest price bracket but are usually no match for true state-of-the-art "Giants".
That had sort of been my experience, too, but I was hoping that with time and tech advancements, GKs can reach maybe another level or two up (against older equipments), and save some$$$ on the way.
I read about "giant killers" from time to time. The first question is what giant are they supposed to have killed? The second is what experience does the proponent of the killer have of the giant?In regard to the first question I have rarely, if ever, seen the identity of the giant revealed in such comparisons. In regard to the second, has the person giving the "killer" title got real knowledge of the giant or are they more likely to have very limited experience e.g. they heard one for a few minutes at a show or dealers, given the price of admission for most of the real "giants"?
In fact what "giant killers" usually turn out to be are components that are superior to what could be thought of as the next performance level up of their type. And good for the money thay can be indeed.
So, as far as DACs are concerned, you may well find $1000 DACs that outperform $1500 ones or $3000 DACs that outpefrom $5000 ones. But that $1000 or $3000 DAC won't be better than one of the genuine (and very costly) giants of performance like MSB, EMM or dCS. Of course over time technology marches on and a cheaper DAC than the existing "giant" will emerge. However that technology will also have marched on for the manufacturer of the "giant" too and they may well have produced an even better DAC and thus they remain as "giants".Aspirational if not affordable.
Edits: 08/06/16
PAR-
you raise an interesting query;
here is my take from listening experience. A few years ago, I was in an Audio Shop that had excellent sound rooms for auditioning the gear.
In a side-by-side comparison, a Rogue Audio integrated amp sounded better than an ARC integrated amp, at half-of the cost.
I'm late to this party but I have first hand experience with the ARC VSi-60 integrated and the Rogue Cronus Magnum.Both were set up side-by-side in my system and as much as I wanted to love the ARC, the Rogue was better sounding.
Why did I want to love the ARC? It has a more flexible remote control for input selection, volume, mute, a more flexible and nicer front panel layout with volume level indicator LEDs, mute button, and cleaner looking overall. Precise volume level is easier to set with the ARC remote. The ARC VSi-60 is housed in a nice compact chassis with a relatively small footprint.
The Rogue is a bit plain Jane almost ugly. But in the end I sold the ARC and kept the Rogue. The Rogue sounds better at a fraction of the price.
I'm not sure that the newer nearly megabuck ARC integrated amps are that much better. It's probably just me but I can't seem to warm up to the ARC sound after owning a couple of their linestages, a couple ARC power amps, and the VSi-60 integrated. And 'warm up' is the key phrase here. ;-) None of them had the slightest bit of 'warmth' that I associate with the tube gear that I enjoy.
Edits: 08/09/16
Well your story kind of supports my hypothesis. In this case a $3000 or $2000 integrated amp beat a $5000 or $6000, or whatever price, one. Now as I asked, what is the giant? In amps an unarguable giant would have been the ARC Ref series pre-power combination of the time. If the integrated Rogue was better than that then we have a genuine giant killer. The Rogue may well have been better than the next level up as represented by the ARC integrated. So, if it didn't kill a giant maybe it killed a taller guy :-).
You also support my point about experience. Just a comparatively short exposure in a store is not the same as spending many hours/days/weeks/months with the "giant". How many times have I thought a given product was superior upon a short exposure to it only to reverse my decison after an extended time of living with it? Immediately attractive sonic differences can ultimately reveal themselves as being nothing more than that.
BTW, I think Rogue Audio make a great product.
Right On! PAR
I listened to that room over 3 months while I was on assignment for work.
The Listening Room- Baltimore MD for reference. System was ARC/Rogue Audio, Maggie and Sonus Faber speakers, Straight Wire (lower tier).
A $2-3K integrated amp killed off the $6K ARC integrated with ease.
Certainly, a David-and-Goliath moment!
I also agree that Rogue is consistently able to kill "taller guys" . Too bad they don't do digital.
I would say look into dCS for a company that makes DACs if you really want something great.
I myself have the Auralic Vega, it is nice but as I said there are other companies (dCS) as well which seem to be more in your league (over $10K USD).
My spirit is in that league, but my wallet refuses to go there. :D Cheers.
It depends on what are your listening objectives and preferences. Many audiohiles desire a relaxed fatigue-free sound from their digital playback. I think that is because it's precisely in those two areas that digital, even expensive digital, frequently fails.
The good news is that those subjective characteristics can be obtained from digital, and at quite low cost too, via so-called NOS DACs. NOS stands for Non-OverSampling, meaning, without any digital reconstruction-filter. There are, however, certain drawbacks to NOS. Famously, NOS inherently features and in-band response roll-off that's clearly audible, especially with CD sample rate content. That roll-off can be EQ'd back to flat, although this rarely appears to be done in most NOS DACs. The bad news is that if you want both fatigue-free sound and technical correctness it isually will cost big money.
_
Ken Newton
I have a Audio-GD Master 7 NOS dac. If there is high frequency roll off I certainly don't hear it. The only problem with ladder or R2R dacs is they don't do DSD. Since I don't care for DSD it is not a problem. My dac will do 24/192
Alan
Unless it's been equalized back to flat in the analog domain your NOS DAC almost certainly has an treble roll-off. The roll-off is due to the sample-and-hold operation (known in DSP science as a 'zero-order-hold') of nearly all audio D/A units. With CD sample rate content the roll-off profile produces about an response that's about -3dB at 20kHz.
An 3dB @ 20kHz droop might not be audible in itself. However, the problem is that the roll-off begins two whole octaves below 20kHz, at around 5kHz. My experience is that the roll-off subjectively manifests as a sin of omission rather than comission, and therefore tends to sound benign. It's when you hear the same NOS DAC with the roll-off EQ'd that you realize what you were missing.
_
Ken Newton
Two points
1) I do not believe that measurements tell you how a component will sound
Many people love tubes even though they don't measure well. People love vinyl although measurements would not support it. A lot of people favor nos ladder dacs although they measure worse than Delta/sigma dacs
2)How do you know that the designer of NOS ladder dacs don't adjust the analog output section of there dacs to give flat resonce
Alan
1) I never claimed that measurements reliably define subjective sound. You're trying to construct a strawman by suggesting that I did.
2) As I clearly stated before, the roll-off can be EQ'd back to flat. Published frequency response graphs I've seen have shown the large majority of NOS DACs do not employ such EQ.
3) You are unjustifiably defensive. I never attacked NOS. I fairly stated some of it's pros and cons.
_
Ken Newton
I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were saying.
Alan
No worries :)
_
Ken Newton
I looked up the specs on my Audio-GD Master7 dac that uses 8 1704 ladder chips set for no oversampling
SN > 120db
Freq responce 20-20khz < -0.1d
Alan
I find the sound of NOS quite likeable, but seem to fare less well with system of wider bandwidths.
I believe in giant-killers, the caveat, listen prior to any purchase.
Regarding NOS DACs mentioned above, I would look into the ANKit DAC 2.2:http://www.ankaudiokits.com
You can order one factory built, or, if you're up to it, build it yourself.
I have an older Kit 1.1. To me, it doesn't sound rolled off, it sounds like live music.
Edits: 08/06/16
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