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I'm writing to ask for advice about the possible purchase of a new CD player. (Many people will say I just should listen myself, but nevertheless I do appreciate any advice that could be offered based on people's experience and expertise.) We have a fairly large LP collection and also a fairly large CD collection, and we enjoy both. However our LP front end is much superior to our CD player, and for most recordings sounds much better, especially in terms of ambience, dimensionality, and dynamic excitement. Our CD player (an off-the-shelf Onkyo unit) has already been repaired once and is beginning to skip again, and so I'm thinking that we should invest in something better. Poking around on the web has led me to the following ideas:
Shanling CD3.2
Line Magnetic CD 515
Marantz SA-14S1
Marantz SA-11S3
The Line Magnetic has gotten lots of very positive informal reviews, and a local dealer who helped me with my cartridge has recommended it. The Marantz units have the advantage that they will play SACD's (I may have a couple already) and the rather expensive 11S3 has a five year warranty.
For reference, I have a rather vintage system with which I am very happy: Stax F83 speakers, NYAL OTL3 amps., Klyne preamp, Well tempered table with van den Hul Frog cartridge.
Thanks very much
Follow Ups:
It turns out that a dealer very near my house (whom I don't like so much) carries the Arcam, but not the Marantz. (The other dealer I mentioned who carries both is not so nearby.) Their Arcam turned out to be broken, and the salesman tried to feed me nonsense about how it was just the remote but they sent it back to the factory anyway. The only other CD player they had on hand was the dCS Rossini, at $28,000. End of that visit.
Here is a really dumb question. I may want to use the optical digital input of the Marantz unit, if I get that one. But it says in the manual:
"Do not input signals other than linear PCM signals, such as Dolby digital, DTS, AAC etc. into this device. Doing so may cause noise, which may cause damage to the speakers.
Do not input non-PCM signals, such as Dolby Digital, and DTS. This causes noise and could damage the speakers."
I thought AAC was a kind of PCM. Is that wrong?
Looking at my ITunes, I see that I have many files in the following formats:
AAC, AIFF, ALAC, MPEG.
Does this mean I won't be able to play anything except AIFF and ALAC files, and could even
accidentally damage my speakers if I don't check the format before I choose to play something?
On the other hand, the Arcam will not play ALAC files or DSD files. (The Marantz 14S1 will.)
Life is too complicated.
None of the dealers, except the online Music Direct, will allow me to take anything home to experiment with....but I suppose I could bring in a laptop.
Anyway, can someone clarify specifically whether AAC and MPEG files are PCM files, and can be used via the optical input?
Thanks again.
Here are some preliminary observations concerning my search for an improved digital source.
Recall my goal was to find a single box that would serve as a CD/SACD player and a DAC to which I could connect our Macintosh network. My hope is to eventually get to the point where digital sources rival my vinyl setup.
I decided to try the Marantz SA 14S1. It arrived three days ago, and I've spent a couple of hours a day since then listening. Everything works, including the optical and USB inputs, fed from a Macintosh (no driver issues). The controls are not as nice as those of my older Onkyo (the twist dials on the latter are more convenient for searching through tracks, than the pushbutton on the Marantz, for example.) The sound seems better, but I'm not yet sure how much. CD's sound good, SACD's excellent, and the DAC (through the optical link) does seem better than the DAC in the Airport Express I had been using. Some details, and a question, follow:
1. Key session: Lorin Maazel's recording of Ravel's l"Enfant et les Sortileges (DG):
This sounds wonderful on LP, with a tremendous sense of space, separation of the different voices and instruments, and beautiful soprano solos. My old CD player sounded okay but lacked the depth and excitement of the LP. Here the Marantz seemed to do very well: the separation and space were there, and the voices sounded beautiful, especially with Filter 2 place.
2. Key session: Patricia Barber SACD's:
I listened to Modern Cool, Distortion of Love, and some of Smash and Cafe Blue The first two were very impressive on SACD, especially Distortion of Love. Probably these rival the LP recordings I have, and the Distortion of Love SACD may be even better. Smash, perhaps was a bit dry. Cafe Blue is "unmastered" so an unfair comparison.
So far, my thoughts were that the Marantz is a worthwhile upgrade.
3. Key session: Kind of Blue, CD.
A disappointment. I have several LP pressings of this, and they sound simply fantastic on my system, with stunning focus, presence, and musical detail that grabs every bit of your attention. The CD sounded okay but not nearly as good as the LP. I have ordered an SACD version of this disk to see if it matches my vinyl experience.
So here is my question. Can people with good digital and vinyl equipment comment on
the sound of Kind of Blue in CD vs LP (and maybe vs SACD as well)? Am i wrong to expect
the similar kind of involvement from digital sources as I get from vinyl? My current view is that it depends on the disc(s), so I especially interested in specific comparisons about these discs in particular.
Some people are recommending that I send back the Marantz and get an Oppo and external DAC for the same price. But I would prefer a single box, at least for now, if possible.
> Some people are recommending that I send back the Marantz and get an Oppo and external DAC for the same price.
> But I would prefer a single box, at least for now, if possible.
The Oppo is a single box universal digital player with an excellent DAC built-in. I use an Oppo BDP-105D for all my digital playback requirements. Most of my digital music is on USB hard drives and flash drives, which connect to the Oppo's three USB "A" ports. It has an additional USB "B" port for streaming digital from a computer to its internal ESS Saber 32 DAC, which sounds very good to me. It also has a number of apps built-in for connecting to internet music sources like Tidal, Pandora, Rhapsody, etc.
As someone explained to me when I was getting started:
Think of your computer as an equivalent of a CD transport. A transport reads the CD and sends digital data to the external DAC
Instead of a CD disc, you use computer files translated into an appropriate signal by your computer. You need a program like JRiver or Foobar to make that translation (from whatever format) into the signal sent to the DAC. So as long as the program you have can use the formats you have, you should be good to go
* Some frustrating setup may be required
Bean wrote:
Instead of a CD disc, you use computer files translated into an appropriate signal by your computer. You need a program like JRiver or Foobar to make that translation (from whatever format) into the signal sent to the DAC. So as long as the program you have can use the formats you have, you should be good to go
Thanks. Will iTunes do this job safely for the files it can handle (eg. those on my list, but not FLAC, DSD, for example)?
It should work just fine. Lots of people use it.
Very sorry, it is me again. I contacted a local Marantz dealer, who told me that although he would be happy to order me a Marantz SA11S3 for $4K, I should consider instead the Arcam CDS27 for $1.5K.
This unit does seem to do a lot of what I want. Instead of linking to my computers via USB (which seems to invite driver troubles) or optical (which I could access from my Airport Express), it has ethernet and Wifi built in. Its DAC doesn't seem quite as good as that of the Marantz (Burr Brown 1794 vs 1729A) but it does seem to be good enough for SACD (converted to PCM perhaps.) The dealer says that it should sound as good as the Marantz, if not better, on most material. It also has a good warranty.
My question for people with experience: do you know how this unit sounds? How it is built?
Thanks yet again.
or in the warehouse already paid for.
Unless your dealer is offering a choice of his ordering the ARCAM vs. ordering the MARANTZ, you should keep the above in mind.
When I was looking at Marantz, I had one dealer tell me that I should try another brand (IMHO vastly inferior mid-fi but in stock, of course). When I pointed out the obvious - it was a CD player, didn't play SACD, he said "oh, you really don't need that, nearly all of those disks are hybrid now"
Guess where I will never buy from.
A couple of reviews of the Arcam--could only directly link one of these. Sorry. Don't know if these will help in your decision or not.
http://www.dagogo.com/arcam-fmj-cds27-universal-audio-disc-player-review
http://www.blog.richersounds.com/review-arcam-cds27/
http://www.hifiandmusicsource.com/2015/09/arcam-cds27/
http://www.stereotimes.com/post/arcam-fmj-a19-integrated-amplifier-and-cds27-sacd-player-network-streaming-player
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cdp-upgrade-marantz-sa8005-or-arcam-cds27.433744/
Marantz SA 8005 plays SACDs, CDs and has a built in DAC. I think they are about $1,100.
Let me thank everyone for their input and advice, which is pointing me more and more toward the Marantz SA11S3. I am especially grateful to PAR, who did some extra research on my behalf, in addition to providing impressions based on his listening. I have followed his advice and attempted to contact Marantz with some questions. Based on their website, it does seem that they offer very good support, which is certainly an important consideration.
May I ask, especially Jack, some more questions? In particular, how is the imaging and focus of the SA11S3? Some reviews of some of its predecessors fault it slightly in that regard. Imaging, in particular depth, is what I especially miss with my current CD player, compared to my vinyl setup.
Also, does anyone know if one can play AIFF files from a computer if one uses the optical input in the Marantz, instead of the USB input?
Thanks again.
My only comment would be to buy a CDP that sounds great from an established company that will be around several years from now in case it needs service. Especially true if you end up buying a rather expensive CDP.
I pity the Asylum inmate who sold his Accuphase and bought Raysonic a few years ago. After owning the Raysonic for a short time, he was in a frantic researching how to get it fixed.
I remember the conversations right here on the Asylum. The company went belly up so he was stuck with a useless boat anchor.
Just to clarify, the Marantz doesn't itself care what format the file storing the data is. The file format is decoded by the music player in the computer. The computer then outputs a data stream (normally a PCM one but sometimes DSD) to the computer. The computer is concerned with the data rate of the stream. So whether the storage file format is FLAC or AIFF or something else, the Marantz' ability to play music from it is limited by whether it is 16/44.1 or 16/48 kHz or 18 or 24 bit 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4 kHz etc. We currently assume that the acceptable data rates for the Marantz USB input is OK for all of those plus 24/192 but not, apparently, DSD.
As mentioned elsewhere optical receivers may be limited to a maximum 24/96 kHz. So the optical input will still play AIFF originated data so long as it does not exceed the maximum acceptable data rate.
Can answer some of you questions. The imaging and soundstage is excellent. The soundstage is very deep, something I look for. Focus is good, as good as anything I've had in my system. My speakers are omnidirectional, so that is harder for me to judge. I haven't used the inputs on the back, so I cannot comment on them.
I should also mention that the Marantz responds very well to tweaking. Vibration control, and especially power cords. Also, I turned off the headphone amp, digital output, and all of the lights and display. This made a noticeable improvement, lowering the noise floor and quieting the background.
HTH,
Jack
I was going to add to the Marantz recommendations. SA11S3 is a great choice if it's in your budget.
Regarding the rear input, it behaves like any other DAC. Up to 192/24 PCM via USB and coax, most optical is limited to 98/24 BUT I have tested 194/28 optical on my SA8004, and it worked. Source was a PC with a Juli@ sound card & JRiver as the player/program.
If you have digital files on a computer, the easiest way (I think) is to play them via a program like JRiver or Foobar, with the digital out via optical, coax, or USB (rear). The Marantz is functionally just like any external DAC, really.
The SA11S3 does NOT do DSD files via USB. The SA14S3 does, but it doesn't sound as good, and it appears you haven't gone down that path anyway.
I haven't spent enough time with the SA11 to comment on focus/ soundstage. But Marantz does have a house "sound" described as laid back or musical and it may or may not be not to your liking. Personally I think it would compliment the Stax quite well. Hifiman used an SA14 to demo their planar headphones at Axpona one year, nice combination.
Again, thanks for the replies. But now I'm getting a bit confused. "Bean" wrote:
"The SA11S3 does NOT do DSD files via USB. The SA14S3 does, but it doesn't sound as good, and it appears you haven't gone down that path anyway."
Actually I might be interested in DSD at some point in the future, and the SA14S1 is much less expensive, so I would certainly consider it, if the sound is good. Bean, did you mean SA14S3 (perhaps an older model?) or did you mean to write SA14S1? I've seen some fairly negative reviews of an older SA14 and also of a new SA14S1 SE (in a European site.) Can you elaborate on the sound difference?
Even worse, there is a threat on the computer audiophile forum in which several owners of the SA 11S3 have found that the USB B input no longer works with Macintosh computers running Yosemite. This would be very negative for me, since I was planning to use either the USB and/or toslink connections. I do have a fair number of AIFF files on ITunes that I haven't burned to CD and that I would like to play directly from the computer, and thought about higher resolution possibilities in the future too. I don't know if the SA14S1 has that problem too; it doesn't seem to require special drivers the way the SA11S3 does. Further digging reveals utter confusion about which DAC chip is in the SA14S1: Marantz says that it is the CS439, but others say that is wrong and that it is in fact the Burr-Brown 1729A.
Ah., life is complicated.
BTW, I seem to remember that someone mentioned that there is a DSD file of Patricia Barber's "Companion" album. I should mention that I am a huge fan of hers, and paid quite a bit of money for the 45 RPM LP version of that record, which sounds great. Strangely, some of her material that has been redone by Mobile Fidelity on LP sounds worse that than the CD version, (darker with rolled highs) and some sounds better. The original pressings are usually very good. I am a very proud owner of an original LP version of Modern Cool, which is quite fantastic.
that's one of my gripes with Marantz, the model sequencing is tough to keep straight with all the small incremental tech changes
Again I haven't spent a lot of time with the latest generation SA14S1 and SA11S3, but I found the SA11 to be top notch, and well worth the upgrade over the SA14, budget permitting.
I don't think there is as big a gap between the SA8005 and the SA14S1. Pretty sure they are both Burr-Brown 1729A.
don't know about the Apple driver issues, I'm a PC guy in spite of my daughter's best effort to convert me
Thanks again for everyone's help. I haven't made a final decision yet, but I'm inclined to try the SA-14S1. It seems to have the features I want, and I can hope that it won't have the USB issues that the SA-11S3 may. The latter also doesn't do DSD (which I may want someday). I haven't been able to determine exactly what the sonic differences are likely to be, but most people seem quite happy with the SA-8005 and the SA-14S1. The latter has a very good warranty, which appeals to me.
Further thoughts welcome. I did post a bit more about my findings on the General Digital forum if anyone wants to look.
Thanks! for sharing- airheadair.
Another option which I am considering myself is an Oppo universal player that outputs via HDMI. I am getting at some point a Bryston BDA-3 DAC which does both PCM and DSD.
Indeed.
I would add that it is a listen-for-hours-without-fatigue house sound, and that's without having to climb the price-ladder very high in their product line.
If I could find a used 120V KI Pearl in decent shape I would scoop it up in a heartbeat.
I am bias as I have a Marantz SA15-S2, but I really do like the Marantz sound. I don't think you could go wrong with either of your Marantz options.
You might want to look into the Creek Evolution 50 CD/DAC. I've had one for a little while and absolutely love it. It exudes quality and sounds wonderful. Digital inputs include USB, two coax and two optical. A great machine!
-Bob
I went to the Creek website and that does look like a very nice CD player. At $1500, you get a lot for you money.
Dave
I was in the same spot till I bought this:
Most are women
That may be a vintage system that you have but it is a very fine vintage system.I am going with others in recemmending the Marantz SA 11-S3. My friend has the SA 8005, a couple of models down the range here in Europe, and I find it very musical. The top of the line SA 11-S3 is bound to be even better.
The front USB input is described by Marantz as being for an ipod or iphone hence the limited specification. The rear USB input is for computer connection and is described as a high speed USB input. I have checked all of the Marantz literature ( incluing the downloaded USB manual) but can find no technical details. I am certain that it will handle FLAC files and high speed would imply at least capability up to 24/192 files but it might be worthwhile checking with Marantz USA (especially as specifications can vary between models foe different markets).
Given the cost and excellent performance of my friend's SA 8005 and the price here of the SA 11-S3 I suspect that any substantive step up in performance from it is going to up the budget significantly.
I have to say that from a long term aspect I would not invest in a Chinese product in this kind of price rage myself. Great until you need support in,say, 2021.
Naim, Rega and possibly Audio Note. Heard the Naim and Rega players. Naim is more rhythmic or has better PRAT if you'll excuse the cliche and Rega may (Saturn) offer more tonal ability. Audio Note is non- over sampling and may suit your more vintage system, although I'm guessing an OTL amp is very transparent.
Best of luck
I have the Marantz SA-11S3. It is surprisingly good. It has a detailed but relaxed sound to it. It also has balanced outputs, which for me is important. It is excellent with CDs and superb with SACDs I haven't heard the others, so I cannot comment.
Jack
Thanks very much. Can you tell me if the USB input on the rear can handle AIFF files if connected to a computer, say via an Aiport Express? I saw the following from a (very positive) review, but it seems to refer only to the front USB port:
I will go out on a limb and even say that the Marantz's back panel USB input maybe the highest quality USB DAC I have heard yet in my system. I also experienced excellent fidelity with an iPhone/iPod plugged into the front USB slot. The only real disappointment I felt was that this input does not support FLAC, AIFF, or resolution beyond 48 Khz, 16-bits. This is a bit of a nitpick, as there are three other inputs that handle up to 192 Khz, 24-bits. But this would have been a nice feature to have
The Oppo BDP-105D handles FLAC, AIFF, and WAV up to 24/192 PCM as well as DSD(64) and DSD(128) through its rear panel USB DAC input. It also handles all those formats and resolutions except for DSD(128) from USB hard drives and flash drives connected to its three USB "A" ports.
I have an older Marantz Sa11s1, Love it. If you can afford newest version Sa11s3 you will love it.
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