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There have been many posts praising this DAC recently. At this point I have owned it for about three weeks and slightly different perspective from most of what I've read.
I have found that things do sound better overall compared to the Squeezebox Touch and a Sony SACD player. There is more clarity. I can now hear instrument timbres and ambient sounds I didn't hear before. So on the whole, the sound with the Bifrost is an improvement and I decided to keep it. However, I am also hearing a slightly more sizzling top end, especially with sopranos and violin. Sibilants are a little more pronounced and unlike the rest of the presentation, the highest notes do not sound natural or particularly pleasant. Vinyl enthusiasts might say it sounds more "digital" now. Has anyone else encountered this?
Follow Ups:
Well, I've spent a week with mine and it's headed back to Schiit Audio. I think it's a good DAC at it's price point, but a few days comparison to my (much pricier) Ayre CDP did not convince me of its giant-slaying prowess, and there were numerous problems with the fit n' finish.
Nice to have the chance to hear it.
n
I'm curious if you heard the digital grunge I reported. I sent the Schiit back.
It wasn't so much the digital grunge in my case. I found the Bifrost's sound to be generally flat by comparison to my other digital sources. Decent bass extension and speed, decent mids and treble, but not really a worthwhile improvement over the SB touch I'd hoped to feed it.
And I thought the finishing was poor -- loose RCAs, scratches on the base from an overzealous assembler, etc. No doubt these will be ironed out over time as the company grows into itself. Certainly their new DAC looks like a terrific product -- may give it a whirl once it's released.
best,
n
Wow ... looks like you got a bad one. I have found that the Bifrost has great PRAT, and good treble extension and good bass definition and isn't dry or sterile by any stretch. Noise floor is pretty low (by no means the quietest I have, but the price of deep black silence is about $3-6k).
I have found the SPDIF driven by the SB Touch to be the best of all the interfaces - but it really needs a really good SPDIF cable (True 75 Ohm cable).
But I also found that my Rega DAC sounds un-involving plugged into the Naim Amp I am using - and sounds great plugged in to the Ayre Pre-Amp/Amp I have. The Bifrost is the other way around - Doesn't sound as good in the Ayre as the Naim.
Perhaps Bifrost driving a system like a Naim is the ticket? Don't know.
I think the hype is a bit overblown, but I have found the DAC is pretty darn good.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Purchased one today........ Without the USB...... Will run via Toslink from the Juli@ card.
The only reason why I did this is my current DAC, the Firestone Audio Spitfire, the "Supplier" outboard power supply has had a tendency to fail, and then heat up to dangerously high temperatures. (Hot enough to where I needed a potholder to relocate the unit outside. It also smelled of overheated electronics. The unit is *not* fuse protected.) I've been running a backup "Supplier", but I figure, the failure mode of the product might be too dangerous for indefinite use.
If it turns out I don't like the Bifrost, I might then try alternative power supplies with the Spitfire. But the Bifrost is inexpensive enough to buy prior to audition, and potentially get most of the investment back in the event I don't like it. But as I said, I like the Bifrost design on paper.
Give it a 100 hours to break in and then make sure to wear your seatbelt.... I'm pretty sure you will be blown away. Congrats and good luck.
I'm clocking in on about 100 hours. I hear what you mean.
It is a touch forward in the upper midrange - though it isn't glare. The bass has filled out consideraby, and the treble is extended. Lots of detail.
What gets you moving is the sense of timing and rhythm is better than any DAC I have heard that is in my budget. (I suspect the Naim DAC is about like this).
I am using the USB input primarily, but SPDIF has a bit more bass.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Out of the box, I noticed a "solid state" sound in an analog sense...... But after about 50 hours, the "solid state" sound subsided, and I find nothing overly objectionable...... Note that I'm using this on a PC, with mostly non-audiophile applications...... Mostly streaming sporting events and YouTube music. (I leave the CD playback to the two dedicated systems.)Compared to the Firestone Audio Spitfire, there is an "ease" and "transparency" in the Bifrost that the Spitfire misses. If there is any digital edge, the tube amplification seems to knock it down. For computer audio, very low fatigue. The electrical isolation of the Toslink between DAC and computer I believe is most responsible.
The computer system is a Juli@ card feeding the Bifrost via SAEC Toslink cable, with Don Allen cables feeding a Don Allen 807 Cakepan single-ended tube amplifier, driving a pair of Klipsch RB 51 II minimonitor speakers. (Seven watts into 92 dB efficient speakers is plenty for nearfield computer audio.) For a computer system, very little to complain about.
Edits: 04/01/12
I have some old ERS strips that I bought and cut up years ago. I have one or 2 pieces on my Bifrost like on the digital input cable. Clean power helps too I think.
Once tuned, I think that the Bifrost excels in midrange and enjoyability. There may be others that do more at the frequency extremes like Emotiva 2nd gen CD player, but may not be as organic.
If I change interconnects or anything w/ this DAC, the sound is different. Last night I finally tried the stock power cord for the first time. I think I like it pretty well.
link here
"Sibilants are a little more pronounced and unlike the rest of the presentation, the highest notes do not sound natural or particularly pleasant. Vinyl enthusiasts might say it sounds more "digital" now. Has anyone else encountered this?"Check your source for jitter. Had the same issue - and when I got rid of my - what I thought to be - a good SPDIF cable and replaced it with one I knew was 75 Ohms to about 5GHz, the sound warmed up, glare was gone, top end calmed down and became much more detailed and airy, and bass ... oh the bass detail!
Funny thing is the new cable was about one quarter of the cost of the one it replaced. (Was an Audioquest, is now black Cat 75 Ohm. I also designed my own and that works, too)
But this may not be your issue ... but jitter kills in any event. The best digital reproduction sounds more convincing than Vinyl and actually sounds better in that it is more realistic. If you are getting top end tizz, and upper midrange glare - the culprit is likely jitter.
I had a Squeezebox touch driving the Bifrost ... and changing the cable was the single biggest improvement. The second best improvement was making ethernet hardwired to the Squeezebox.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Edits: 03/19/12
So many Bifrost threads around these parts ...got me to get off my duff and get some of this good Schiit. I played it for less than a week and so far it is working really fine. The sound appears to resemble the mental image I have garnered after reading related posts. I like it. The previous front end consisted of a Marantz SA15. If you think the Bifrost is heavy on sizzle you have not heard the SA15. That machine will etch a laser tattoo onto your eardrums to the point of enjoying its precision but yearning for more sedation. Here is where the Schiit hits the fan: more coherent, liquid and organic sounding. The frosting on the cake is that it makes me just want to listen to music more. The one caveat that I had is that it was a bit too lame in the upper registers until...I changed one tube in my amplifier. That did the trick. More snap with no sizzle. I really like this thing via USB from the laptop (Jriver and Fidelizer software).
LOL. Great post. This audio thing is a mystery. We seem to be hearing different things from the same DAC.
By the way, yesterday I went to hear Bach's Magnificat live. Sat in the 10th row middle. Excellent performance by the SF Bach choir and orchestra. Great sound but alas, no detail (could not hear the soloists breathing), no imaging even. And no sizzle. Very different from any high end system I've heard. At the end of the day, the best system in my opinion is the one that makes you want to listen to music more, so kudos as you have achieved that with the Schiit.
It has to be done in a natural way without accentuation or spot lighting or else the results are not pleasing, at least to me. I felt the same way about the last dac I had using the Sabre chip - it just didn't sound right to me - and ultimately I preferred a dac using the less resolving Wolfson chip. Again, some people love it that way. In my opinion, these dacs are pushing digital technology to the edge and maybe it's exposing other problems in the recording/mastering process.
If resolution isn't 'musical', a term that I don't like as it is nebulous, then the problem is not the hardware but the software. Less accurate resolution can only be a lack of fidelity, defined as accuracy to the signal.
I did not have any issues with tizzyness but in my initial review I noted that after 100 hours or so I found the mid/bass frequencies to blossom a bit which resulted in a better overall tonal balance.
None of the 4-5 other Bifrost reviews out there have mentioned this either. It could be that the Bifrost is revealing a limitation elsewhere in your system? Or possibly you are very sensitive to "tizzyness" in which case you might want to explore NOS R2R type DACs using chips like the 1704 or 1541.
There are many things that make something sound "digital". You have to fight for whatever good sound you can get. We have many saying it sounds wonderful and now someone who hears edginess. This digital edge can come from many, many different sources...the AC supply in your system, the transport/source, the digital cable, the power supplies in the DAC, the DAC chip itself, the clocking in the DAC and before, the output stages, etc. etc. Some are saying the AKM DAC chip is to blame. I don't know. I worked with the original 32 bit 4397 DAC chip and liked it very much, but when the 4399 came out I found it sterile sounding using the exact same board, parts, etc. I use the 24 bit 4396 in my Behringer mods and they sound fantastic. The game is very complex. Just last night I changed the main clock in my modded Oppo to a lower jitter clock and the "digital nasty sound" I was hearing listening to the 24/192 download of Tea for the Tillerman turned into musicans in the room. Way less nasty and way more real. Perhaps the very inexpensive Bifrost just needs a seriously better clock. Play around with what you can afford to do and if it does not work for you send it back. In my experience, To get really great digital sound you need a seriously low jitter signal path, seriously great analog stages and many great power supplies (AC and DC).
I have found the AKM dacs to all be very good. Good enough anyway. I like the 4395 and 4396 to sound great. The newer ones are most likely just as good or better.
Without having heard the Bifrost it is impossible to comment on the sound. But I doubt if the dac chip is an issue.
I suspect it is the rest of the system and not the dac anyway. There is so much involved.
George
Schitt Dac to come out.
Here are a couple of blurbs from Jason regarding the "Ultimate" Schitt Dac....there will also be a "Statement" Dac.
[...] "Ultimate" DAC prices haven't been set yet, [...] Ultimate will probably be at the very top end of 3 figures to low four figures. Remember, that's a redefinition piece, unlike anything on the market. You will literally be getting technology that isn't available anywhere else--not for $5K, not for $10K. [...]
Seriously, though, you hit it. Sabre isn't a complete redefinition--it's just remixing what a lot of other people are doing. This will be a complete redefinition. Not Sabre, not NOS, none of the same old tricks.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
You are expecting to much from a $350 DAC IMO.
In order to get an analog sound from digital, you need really low jitter, distortion and noise. This equates to discrete circuits, expensive clocks and power systems.
Everyone seems to think that chip technology will eventually fix this and the price will be really cheap for analog sound quality from digital. Never happen IMO, and here is why:
The D/A silicon is certainly getting a lot better than it was (except for the digital filtering), but for excellent SQ you still need some basic passive building blocks, including capacitors, resistors and transformers that behave more like textbook perfect models as well as circuit boards that have really low dielectric constants.
These are all really expensive technologies that dont appear to be coming down much over time. Most are actually increasing in price. Also, as I mentioned, discrete circuits are needed for both analog stages and voltage regulators to achieve low jitter, noise and distortion. These take up a lot of board space and add cost, sometimes a lot. One transistor that I use in a discrete voltage regulator costs me $25 each. Op-amps have not improved dramatically recently, although there are more decent choices than 15 years ago. Good ones can cost $30 each. Most new Op-amp designs are for other than audio applications. These chip companies see the high-end audio and recording studio business as small potatoes, which it is.
Even if you have all of these high-performance parts at your disposal and no price constraints, the designer must still be aware of all of these and able to apply them properly to optimize performance in the circuit design and board implementation. There even expensive DACs that miss the mark here.
Actually, of course what you say is true. Remember all thy hype about the Radio Shack Optimus CD-3400? When I did buy one, I was expecting a good for the money portable CD player, and that is exactly what I got. I did not expect a giant-killer and I was happy. Others started modifying it and when they got through, they had well over a $1K in it. They should have just bought a $1K player!
I am considering buying the Schitt Bitfrost, but I won't expect it to run with $4K DACs. I expect it to sound very good for the $350 and hopefully trouch some of my older equipment. It is designed by people who should know what they are doing but they are not Alchemists. I am not expecting magic!
Dave
I actually changed from a coaxial digital cable and went to a Toslink and got better more pronounced highs and less sibilance and grunge. I had previously thought in the digital realm more HF would always bring at least some negative byproducts along with it. Perhaps the new DAC is doing a better job on the high end and that provides a mixed result in terms of positive and negative. Take a look at other things like the cable from the transport or sever etc., power cord and other stuff that affect RFI/EMI. Good luck!
ET
I ordered mine USB-less ($150 cheaper!) and toslink was my only solution as my computer only has that. I love mine, no issues whatsoever, and I leave mine powered up constantly too. This thing brought my computer files to an entirely higher level, and I couldn't be happier. No sibilant issues, and I even play my vinyl through it. I go from my receiver to my computer, it's running at 24/192, so the bifrost sees that extended bitrate and operates at that native frequency. My computer audio was already great due to being able to select 24/192 natively with the Realtek high definition audio player in my Gateway PC. It's only that much better with the schiit in place. That was the best addition to my computer audio set-up, bar none. After a couple system tweaks to improve performance (switching off the graphics, ripping out unused programs and turning off some that were not being used but running behind the scenes), I was pleasantly surprised at what a difference it made. I'd try all of that if I wanted better performance and didn't want to make the computer audio-specific.
Freedom is the right to discipline yourself.
> > > However, I am also hearing a slightly more sizzling top end, especially with sopranos and violin.That would be the nature of the AKM chips coming through. I found this to be true with nearly every AKM Dac I have owned and listened too. I tried everything I could think of to calm it down but nothing works. Might be something you are going to have to get used too.
My initial impressions of the AKM were much the same as BiFrost owners. I loved the extension and clarity, but grew tired of the edge in long listening sessions.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Edits: 03/18/12
I tried to EQ the hell out of the high midrange and treble frequencies but cannot get rid of the sibilance and digital artifact in the high end. I've not encountered this before. It's almost as if the digital tizzyness is encoded in the DNA. Weird and interesting.
Isolating my CDP better eliminated the sibilance in my system.
90% of the time I have found tizz and glare to be jitter from the source or the source + a poorly executed SPDIF cable. I had the exact same issue with the Bifrost. Once I got a good 75 Ohm cable in the system - the harshness was gone.
If you get a HDTV video cable with 75 Ohm BNC's on either end, and do a 75 Ohm BNC to RCA adapters on it you will get a ton of bass - and detailed bass at that, and the sound warms up, hardness disappears. Shouldn't cost more than $90-150 all in all, and you can re-use that cable anywhere you need SPDIF. Oh, for additional help, make sure the cable is 1m-2m long. For some odd reason that is the "magic length" where internal reflections get ignored by the SPDIF receiver and RCA being a terrible interface, you will have some.
Of course, returning is always an option - just saying that you've got it there ... might be worth a shot in making it work that way.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
Time to take advantage of the 15-day return, methinks.
n
Better to return it rather than spend countless hours and money trying to make it work in your system.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
I understand exactly what you mean. Nothing I did, including upsampling, power cords, IC's, etc. etc. etc. could get rid of it. The only way to get rid of it was to actually kill the sonics of the Dac itself.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
I evaluated the AKM chip as a candidate for my new DAC about 2 years ago. I modded the heck out of the demo board and even powered it from batteries. Still no good IMO. Lots of detail, but a digital hardness that would not go away.
I am not hearing the hardness - but horses for courses - it certainly isn't as warm as my record player setup, and My Rega DAC is close to it.
Which chip did you settle upon?
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
> > > Which chip did you settle upon?
I think he purposely avoided including that information in the literature, perhaps to avoid scrutiny.
One thing I find disturbing is the inclusion of a "Fan" in the Dac mounted on the top.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
We agree on this. I think its the switched-capacitor filters. This is unique to the AKM I think. Other chips that they produce are excellent, like their S/PDIF receiver.
It is always constructive to find out the potential down side of an otherwise highly-praised product........ Goes to show it is so difficult to get the top right in a DAC........ It will be interesting to listen to this product in an audition, if opportunity were to arise.By the way, on paper, I have little to fault with this product's design, and has been on my radar for computer based playback.
Edits: 03/18/12
No doubt, the designer[s] know what they are doing and have the experience to make a great product.
FYI, they are supposed to be coming out with a high-end Dac, don't know what chip it will use but its in the works.
And yes indeed it is hard to get the higher octaves of digital right.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
"That would be the nature of the AKM chips coming through. I found this to be true with nearly every AKM Dac I have owned and listened too."
If it's just playing 44.1 kHz through the AKM DAC then it may be a filter effect. The cure would be to try upsampling with a smooth, somewhat rolled off filter, e.g. Sox, 92% offset, minimum phase.
If it happens with most higher sampling rate recordings it is likely that your system is on the bright side and might be more enjoyable if tamed somewhat. Some recordings are just too bright and if one voices the system for them then other recordings may be too dull.
I leave my equipment powered up 24/7 as that also smooths things out.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
very true about 16 bit recordings. The sampling rate is just not high enough. On 24/96 recordings the Bifrost is very neutral in my system. To get the highs right I needed 200 hours break-in and a good 75 Ohm coaxial cable.
Just think about the recording side with inferior ADCs, mixing boards, cheap cables, and dirty power it is a wonder any recording sounds worthwhile.
If clever noise shaping is used, 96/16 can sound almost as good as 96/24. I have done experiments with 96/12 which is only slightly worse and even 96/8 was acceptable, albeit like a noisy pre-recorded tape.
With a much higher sampling rate noise shaping works better. This is why DSD sounds good. DSD is nothing more than 2822/1 PCM, encoded using very clever noise shaping.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I think the Bifrost may have been voiced with the Schiit Lyr tube headphone amp. I had taken the Lyr out of the playback loop as it appeared to be slightly "rolling off" the high frequency response of my SACD playback on my Oppo 95 . The SACDs still sounded detailed but they were sounding more like the CD playback (also pretty exceptional)from the Oppo. DSD sounds a little different then PCM. PCM hi freq. is just a bit more etched. The decay of DSD notes while distinct fade more naturally into silence. Granted I've never heard state of the art PCM playback.
I placed the Lyr back in after the Bifrost & now my PCM music(being played from a hard drive into a Cambridge Audio Network Player into the Bifrost)is sounding closer to DSD. I think I like the sound of my CDs dBPa ripped to my Hard Drive better than them being played on a optical drive. They appear to be a little more immediate & smoother sounding.
The Oppo will remain on the preamp I had it on. I will continue to use two dedicated source specific playback paths as this seems to work for me at this time(or unless I find a magic wallet to fund my new system additions)
Just out of curiousity I took the Lyr back out of the loop. As it turns out the Bifrost must still have some burning in to do, as the HF response is'nt as aggressive it was even without the Lyr following it. For some reason I'm not actually that big a fan of the Lyr, I always seem to loose a slight bit of transparency when it's inserted.
On another note, what do you guys think of Neko D100 DAC ? It looks pretty interesting (& it's about at the upper limit of what I'd like spend at this time) Thanks
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