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In Reply to: RE: "The live experience" There is no such thing posted by Analog Scott on November 28, 2016 at 11:22:41
If they ever claimed that they knew what "THE sound of live music" was I'd call them on it because that is BS
I aver that I too, have a good notion of what the sound of live, unamplified music sounds like in its many flavors. I hear wifey play her baby grand on a regular basis. I went to the symphony last week.
You can't speak for them.
But we can recall what they put in print. Here is HP from issue 6:
"This magazine does have a philosophy: That recorded music should try to recreate the illusion of hearing music in a good hall".
Having known HP for over thirty years, I can attest that is exactly what he preached for as long as I knew him. And hearing his systems convinced me that we could get close at times. :)
Follow Ups:
Soooo how do you gauge that? How do you determine a system gets close to the sound of live music in a good hall? What are you listening for and evaluating?
Learned experience! I hear auditory cues demonstrated by instruments being played in space.
I can't say that I have experienced the *best* halls, but again that detail misses the distinction between hearing a live, unamplified experience and the more common sound reinforcement variety.
And what auditory cues did you find in HP's system that were missing in others? Your answer feels a little like a dodge. Kind of circular reasoning. Imagine for a moment someone asking you this who knows nothing about high end audio.
And what auditory cues did you find in HP's system that were missing in others?1. Sense of three dimensional space
I've never heard the walls disappear with an audio system like I have there. You perceive the acoustic boundaries of the recorded space.
2. Profound resolution
Every rhythm in the background is rendered so clearly. Why didn't I ever hear that before?
3. Authority
Sense of ease at any (unamplified music) dynamic level. Utter lack of strain or notion of clipping.
edit: Just reviewed your profile and rediscovered you are a brethren Sound Lab and Audio Research enthusiast. We likely share more than differ. In reading your musical preferences. I find I enjoy much of what you've described, but am not limited to such nor use pop music as a reference. FWIW, however, Madonna's Ray of Light blew me away on Harry's system. Ever found yourself laughing out loud when you hear something so f--ing good? :)
Edits: 11/28/16
A sense of space and imaging are very interesting subjects in audio IMO especially when we are talking about the illusion of realism in audio. Live music and audio are such fundamentally different experiences. One of the biggest differences between the two is the absense of visual cues in audio. We, as audiophiles, can't forget that how we percieve sound is profoundly affected by visual cues. We evolved using the two in tandum. And visual cues give us far more accurate information on where things are and how far away they are than auditory cues. so, as it goes, most the the imaging we think we hear in live music we actually see. If one were able to take the actual waveform at any live concert and transfer it to our ears in the lsietning room we would almost universally find that sound have very poor imaging and not be loud enough. So the imaging we get for high end audio has to compensate for the lack of visual cues to create an illusion of aural realism. Imaging in audio is far more precise, far more defined and far more palpable in high end audio than in real life. And that is a good thing. It makes for a better aesthetic experience IMO. An inaccuracy that seems like an accuracy.
And visual cues give us far more accurate information on where things are and how far away they are than auditory cues.
Except of course when you're sitting in the orchestra and can't see many performers past the first violins, cellos and bass. All the woodwinds and various brass are back there somewhere.
Imaging in audio is far more precise, far more defined and far more palpable in high end audio than in real life.
Not always, but I agree with the sentiment. You'll note I said nothing at all about "precise imaging". Just observed the ability to render all the instruments clearly in a larger apparent space.
"Not always, but I agree with the sentiment."
I think it's pretty close to always. If you are sitting very close to a small ensemble then the actual sound only imaging get's pretty precise. But other than that most of the percieved precision in real world acoustic music is visual as well as just about any day to day perception of placement. In fact the visual will almost always not just support the audible sense of imaging it will override it. Just think about anytime you go to the movies. We always percieve the sound of the actor's voices to be eminating from the image of their mouths when in fact it is often comming from a speaker that is physically pretty far away from the actors image on the screen. This is the Mcgurk effect. When the visual cue is in conflict with the audible cue the brain automatically picks the visual cue as the reliable one.
"You'll note I said nothing at all about "precise imaging". Just observed the ability to render all the instruments clearly in a larger apparent space."
Yeah, I was the one who brought up the issue of the percieved precision of imaging. That was not meant to be an argument against anything you said.
Keep in mind microphone positioning for most recordings. That explains the precision to a large degree.
I have some recordings where the microphones were at "live" distances and the imaging precision is much more like you would get live.
Not to mention compression and EQ'ing kills any realism ...
every microphone ever used to recorded live music has it's own inherent EQ built in.
Change positions in the concert hall and you change the spectral balance of the sound. But it will be just as realistic being that it is still real.
"every microphone ever used to record live music has it's own inherent EQ built in. "10-4 on that!
:)
Edits: 12/31/16
yes. But my point was that without the visual cues that more "natural" imaging will not be *percieved* as realistic because it will have virtually no specificity. So IMO the less truly realistic but more palpable and clear imaging we get with the most highly praised audiophile recordings will seem to be more realistic and will be prefered in terms of sound quality.
So, you mean to tell me that you never close your eyes at a live concert? I find that I do this quite often...particularly at classical concerts. Guess, what? i can still get quite good "imaging" and "soundstaging". I can easily still tell where the violins, flute, oboe, cellos and basses are located. Or a soloist. I can also tell the horns and the percussion are in the back. Is it razor sharp? Only if I am sitting very close but that is true whether my eyes are open or not.
Visual cues are not required to be able to get good auditory placement in live un amplified concerts...for amplified concerts it is more important since most of the sound is coming to you disconnected from the performers.
Yes I have done that. But that experiement is basically poisoned to a degree once you have visually located the various musicians. OTOH there have been a number of times when I did not see where particular musicians were seated before the music started and they were placed in atypical positions. In those cases I absolutely could not locate those musicians by sound alone. *We hear what we know.* When the unexpected happens it's not so clear. And that is the real test.
I think it's pretty close to always.
I have quite a few recordings that work to the contrary.
And certainly many that exhibit extreme "precision" like a number of 60s recordings that exhibit ping-pong instrument and voice placement. For some reason, it seems poor Astrid Gilberto was frequently placed on one side of the room. :)
But of course. But when we talk about some of the best sounding recordings of acoustic music we are pretty much always talking about recordings that exhibit very palpable imaging in a very well conveyed sound space. We can point to the different sections and get a sense of depth/distance and a sense of size of the instruments and a sense of space around them and a sense of the concert hall. Any recording of live music that fails to convey these qualities is generally deemed to be inferior recordings in terms of sound quality. Would you not agree?
I'll agree to most of what you've said, but not necessarily with "very palpable imaging".
Many of the recordings to which I refer are minimally miked Telarcs that provide a very realistic diffuse sounding nature when it comes to individual instrument localization.
Yes, the violins are to the left, heavy brass typically back right, but I can't tell you where the oboist is seated or how the violas are arranged.
What you descibe is indeed very "realistic" imaging. I prefer less realistic more palpable imaging and a nice thick palpable sense of hall space. Here is why. In a live concert we percieve imaging that is very palpable and pretty well defined because we can see the musicians. (generally) and those visual cues literally make our brains think we are hearing sound with more specificity of location than we are actually hearing. IMO the less accurate imaging of many audiophile favorites compensate for the lack of visual cues. And in effect seem more realistic to most listeners. Personally I don't care so much as to whether or not it's more accurate. I just like the sense of palpable presence that comes with that kind of imaging. Makes the music more visceral for me.
That sums it up nicely - to each his own!
"I aver that I too, have a good notion of what the sound of live, unamplified music sounds like in its many flavors. I hear wifey play her baby grand on a regular basis. I went to the symphony last week."
great and did the symphony at the concert hall sound just like the wife playing the baby grand at home? I am quite sure they didn't. So which one was more "the live experience?"
"But we can recall what they put in print. Here is HP from issue 6:
"This magazine does have a philosophy: That recorded music should try to recreate the illusion of hearing music in a good hall"."
Ooooh look at that! "Hearing music IN A GOOD HALL" That would be what we would call a small subset of all Live music. Now let's look at what the other poster has been talking about. "the live experience" Quoted multiple times. Again, there is no such thing as "**THE** live experience." Every live experience is a unique one. And clearly when he was trying to speak for HP he missed a real real big qualifier. That being a "good concert hall." Huge issue with live sound.
"Having known HP for over thirty years, I can attest that is exactly what he preached for as long as I knew him. And hearing his systems convinced me that we could get close at times. :)"
Did he limit his qualifiers to good halls? No mention of the quality of the instruments or the quality of the playing or the quality of the seat one sits in in a "good hall?" All of those things matter just as much as the quality of the hall. Any discussion of the parameters of what constitutes a "good hall?" There isn't a clear line between "good halls" and all other halls. There is no singular sound for "good halls either. No two halls sound the same.
great and did the symphony at the concert hall sound just like the wife playing the baby grand at home?
Just like, no. Could I tell that each was playing a live, unamplified instrument in space, yes.
Again, there is no such thing as "**THE** live experience."
Any facsimile of a live experience works for me.
Did he limit his qualifiers to good halls?
Return to the quote. Operative word being "should". I attended many a concert at the ASO where we sat in his good friend JWC's favorite spot in the loge. HP preferred other halls and for that matter, orchestra seating, but still enjoyed the experience. I think you'll find a number of very nice Telarc recordings made in that space under Shaw, Lane and Spano. I played a small role in one.
No two halls sound the same.
No disagreement there. But misses the point HP was making.
Any? Even if a "live experience" involves utterly and totally crap sound quality? If so why? Why would something that sounds like crap work for you as a reference for home audio?
Even if a "live experience" involves utterly and totally crap sound quality?
I've never experienced such with live, unamplified music. Maybe I'm just lucky. Once again the goal is for the optimum experience which for many implies seating position as well.
Why would something that sounds like crap work for you as a reference for home audio?
That assertion has nothing to do with either HP's concept or what I use as a reference.
You said ""Any facsimile of a live experience works for me." Sorry but you can't group that broad scope of live music with HPs narrower scope of live music in "a good hall"
If you have never experienced crap sound at a live acoustic concert then this speaks to the narrow scope of your experience with live music or a profound bias that live is an automatic qualifier for excellence. But I can assure you that bad SQ does exist in the world of live acoustic music. But it seems (correct me if I am wrong) that you draw the line at "live." That meaning any live music is a good reference. Yes? No?
All the bad sounding live concerts have always been with amplified music. I have been to hundreds of unamplified music and have never experience "Crap" sound
Alan
then you don't know what crap sound is. Sorry but the idea that anyone has been to "hundreds of live acoustic concerts andnever heard crap sound" is load of B.S. Really? In hundreds of live concerts you have never sat in a bad seat or gone to a bad hall or heard a bad musician or heard an instrument that was out of tune? Never? Bull ****.
or heard a bad musician or heard an instrument that was out of tune?
there is still a characteristically live component to the sound despite those shortcomings. My wife is a professor at a local college where there are many opportunities to experience live music. Some is quite good - I thoroughly enjoyed a concert by the Katona Twins where I was seated not twenty feet from them. The only reinforcement was a small acoustic shell. Superb.
I've also heard a range of student players play there. While the performance ability isn't symphony level quality - the sound experience itself is nevertheless that of live, unamplified music. Talent alone is not a critical factor in perceiving the aspects of the live sound experience one hears.
"I've also heard a range of student players play there. While the performance ability isn't symphony level quality - the sound experience itself is nevertheless that of live, unamplified music. Talent alone is not a critical factor in perceiving the aspects of the live sound experience one hears."
I definitely disagree with this. A string instrument played off pitch sounds bad. A poorly tuned piano sounds bad. This happens sometimes even with the most famous soloists. For all the hair splitting that goes into audio, if any piece of gear were to distort to the point of playing audibly off picth it would be considered broken.
We all know where the bullshit is coming from. Another self appointed expert who has no idea what he is talking about. What are your credentials to back up anything you are saying. My acoustic concerts were 35 years at orchestra hall listening to the Chicago Symphony pretty much in the same seats. No crap sounding concerts. I know crap when I hear it and especially when I read it. I spent 25 years listening to live musical instruments out in the studio. I know what they sound like.
Alan
35 years and you claim you never heard bad sound at a concert or any other time you listened to live acoustic music? Clearly you don't know bad sound when you hear it. If you have had that much exposure to live music you HAVE heard bad sound. Your claims are truly laughable.
Never said that. I have heard plenty of bad sound at live amplified concerts. Never at the Chicago symphony concerts. I have also heard many bad sounding recordings. Of course in that case you don't know if the original performers sound bad or the engineers have done a terrible job. You seem to be totally fact deficient. You do not really want to discuss anything. Just state your opinion and everybody should agree with you. Almost everybody on this thread has disagreed with you but I doubt you will learn anything from that
I have no more time for this. Have a nice deluisional life
Alan
If you have never experienced crap sound at a live acoustic concert then this speaks to the narrow scope of your experience with live music or a profound bias that live is an automatic qualifier for excellence.
Believe what you will.
But I can assure you that bad SQ does exist in the world of live acoustic music.
Sorry you've experienced such.
But it seems (correct me if I am wrong) that you draw the line at "live."
When one's experience is devoid of "crap", then such does not play into my point of reference.
If one's experience with live music is devoid of crap sound quality then one's experience is quite limited or, for whatever reason, they aren't identifying crap sound as crap sound. Not really that uncommon with audiophiles. I remember way back in the day James Boyk gave a seminar on piano sound at the first Stereophile Hifi show. And while the seminar was very informative the sound of the actual piano he used for the demo was terrible. The room was simply too small. It was painfully overloaded by the piano. And yet just about everyone who attended came out of the room ooohing and awing about the amazing sound of a live piano they just heard. They clearly had no idea what good live piano sound was all about.
HiFi shows are not the best environments to hear anything in my experience. :)
Maybe so but judging from the comments at that event a whole room full of audiophiles came away from that demo thinking they just heard the most magnificent sound they had ever heard, a live piano! But what they heard was in fact really crappy live piano sound.
I think audiophilia has built up this bizzarre mythology about "the absolute sound" and audio. A bizzarre mythology that has lead many audiophiles to beleive that any live acoustic music is inherently excellent sound, that it all is uniformly distinctive in nature and that it sets a singular reference by which to judge audio playback.
Me thinks it is an absurd sacred cow that most it's worshipers barely know much about.
And in the end it has audiophiles rationalizing why they willfully embrace horrible sound sometimes, because it is more "accurate" and accurcy and realism are synonymous and realism is the singular goal of audio.
they just heard the most magnificent sound they had ever heard, a live piano!
That's because they did.
Enjoy your "less realistic" sound. :)
> > they just heard the most magnificent sound they had ever heard, a live piano! > >
> That's because they did.>
No, they did not. When a piano or any other instrument overloads a room it sounds bad, period.
> Enjoy your "less realistic" sound. :)>
Nice snarky remark. What I enjoy most is *excellent sound.* That does not include a piano that is overloading the room. OTOH it does include a world class piano that has just been tuned and tweeked by a highly skilled piano technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall from an excellent seat.
Is that "less realistic" sound IYO?
Do you think that the sound of a piano that is overloading a room is equally as good as the sound of a piano as I just described because they are both equally realistic?
Nice snarky remark.
That is your terminology, not mine.
Is that "less realistic" sound IYO?
If a recording were multi-miked such that it sounded "less realistic and more palpable", yes. Once again, I'm using your wording. Remember?
Scott, by now we all get your preference. Repeating the concept of your ideal is really unnecessary.
> > Nice snarky remark. > >> That is your terminology, not mine.>
Has nothing to do with the terminology.
> > Is that "less realistic" sound IYO?> >
> If a recording... >
Who said anything about a recording? I asked you a very simple question. Let's see if you can answer the question I actually asked. So I will restate it as simply as I possibly can. Should be really easy to understand.
> Scott, by now we all get your preference. Repeating the concept of your ideal is really unnecessary.>
Clearly you don't get it. Now let's see if you can answer the questions. We are comparing the sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room to that of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall.
1. Are these "live experiences" equal in sound quality? Are they just as good as each other?
2. Is either one more or less *realistic sounding* than the other?When you can honestly answer those questions then you might be alble rightfully claim to understand my concept of ideal sound and how it relates to audio. Until then I remain skeptical that you really do understand any of this. Of course you may be obfusecating on purpose. I don't know. But IMO it's one or the other.
Really simple questions for anyone with meaningful experience with live acoustic sound. Good luck.
Edits: 12/01/16
participating in your odd diversion of the original topic here.
Carry on!
Once you've been called on your BS there is nowhere left to go but through the exit door.
into SM with your "audiophile" rants, I failed to take your opinion seriously.
Now you want to make it about me. You were in the conversation until you were faced with questions that if you answered honestly would destroy your assertions. So to stay on point I will ask the questions again.
We are comparing the sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room to that of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall.
1. Are these "live experiences" equal in sound quality? Are they just as good as each other?
2. Is either one more or less *realistic sounding* than the other?
Do you want to talk about audio and live sound as a reasonable and useful reference here or do you want to keep dodging that subject and continue to try to make it about me?
You've beaten your dead horse enough already.
Perhaps you'll find someone who agrees with your position elsewhere. Best of luck to you. :)
You continue to post and yet you continue to avoid the actual subject. Why is that? (rhetorical question we both know why) Let's face it. It's not that you don't care about my questions. They are the subject of the very heart of your audio philosophy so clearly you do care about the subject. You just don't want to face the fact that they expose the nonsensical aspects of that philosophy. So feel free to keep up the hand waving and continue to avoid the subject. But just for kicks I will ask the questions again.
We are comparing the sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room to that of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall.
1. Are these "live experiences" equal in sound quality? Are they just as good as each other?
2. Is either one more or less *realistic sounding* than the other?
The idea that an audiophile who believes that live acoustic music is the reference for judging audio sound quality would not be interested in these questions is plainly absurd. You just don't like the answers. So you won't answer them.
I look forward to your next dodge. Keep on posting about something you are so disintered in. The irony of that speaks for itself. Be very careful to continue to avoid the subject.
that ongoing repetition of your point serves no useful purpose.
All three of us got it the first time around. And disagree. Maybe eventually, you'll be able to let that go. :)
So to stay on subject...
We are comparing the sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room to that of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall.
1. Are these "live experiences" equal in sound quality? Are they just as good as each other?
2. Is either one more or less *realistic sounding* than the other?
I look forward to your next post insisting that you are either not interested, that I'm a bad guy or you have already addressed these questions (you haven't) It's almost a point of curiosity what lengths you will go to to avoid answering such simple questions that speak to the foundation of the idea that live acoustic music is the reference for audio playback.
What's your next excuse?
We are comparing the sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room to that of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall.
1. Are these "live experiences" equal in sound quality? Are they just as good as each other?
2. Is either one more or less *realistic sounding* than the other?
I look forward for your next post. No doubt it will be more of the same. anything to avoid dealing with the reality these questions pose.
"For several days, he is locked in a sweat box with AS."
thank you for providing it.I also enjoy music and am very interested in the subject of sound quality.
so speaking of music and sound quality, what do you prefer? The sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room or the sound of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall?
And as this question relates to audiophilia and the belief that *any* live acoustic music is the reference for audio playback because the goal is "realism," which is more realistic? The sound quality of a live piano that is overloading a room or the sound of a top flight concert grand piano, just tweeked by an expert technition, played by a world class pianist in a world class concert hall and heard from an excellent seat in that hall? Or are they equally realistic?
Edits: 12/03/16
so speaking of music and sound quality, what do you prefer?
Clearly stated here several days ago.
I have also spoken about audio show quality here.
I'll be happy to repeat anything else I've posted if necessary.
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